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Old 2012-11-08, 11:50   Link #61
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eragon View Post
But frankly from what I have seen on threads(here on AS) of new(popular/hyped) shows is that fans just don't want ANY kind of criticism targeted at their show - even if its legit. Enjoying a show is one thing, turning a blind eye on its drawbacks is another.
I think that, nine times out of ten, this isn't actually about "not wanting criticism", but because of the tone of the person doing the criticising. Sometimes people have a bit of an "I'm here to tell you what the flaws in this show are; prove me wrong" attitude about things, and a lot of times it's just personal preference being passed off as a objective unarguable flaws. It's as though them not liking the show is itself proof that the show is "obviously bad". And this sort of attitude gets tiring; first you have to overcome the arrogance barrier and then see if they're actually willing to listen to any other points of view. Often, it just becomes an argument, rather than a discussion. Those people often turn around and say "See?! Fanboys don't want anyone to criticise their 'precious' flawed work!" and so become even more determined and even more presumptive, feeding this cycle of "us vs. them".

I think this whole thing could be solved if people would just use a more disarming tone and be more interested in having a conversation that leads to understanding than in just making their point and proving they're right. I think that fans of a work are among the most interested in having discussions about its content, but they don't necessarily want to be made to feel like they themselves are on trial for liking a work that someone else doesn't enjoy. And when you have people who seem, from their tone, to be only interested in putting fans on the defensive, it leads to question like the one that started this thread: "Why watch a show you don't like?"

So I find that some people often say "fans don't want to have their favourite show criticised", but I think it's more that nobody wants to feel like they themselves are being criticised for their subjective personal tastes. The difference between the two (and so the reactions you're going to get as a result) comes down to the way each person chooses to express themselves. Change the tone, and you'll probably change the reaction.
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Old 2012-11-08, 14:11   Link #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I think that, nine times out of ten, this isn't actually about "not wanting criticism", but because of the tone of the person doing the criticising. Sometimes people have a bit of an "I'm here to tell you what the flaws in this show are; prove me wrong" attitude about things, and a lot of times it's just personal preference being passed off as a objective unarguable flaws. It's as though them not liking the show is itself proof that the show is "obviously bad". And this sort of attitude gets tiring; first you have to overcome the arrogance barrier and then see if they're actually willing to listen to any other points of view. Often, it just becomes an argument, rather than a discussion. Those people often turn around and say "See?! Fanboys don't want anyone to criticise their 'precious' flawed work!" and so become even more determined and even more presumptive, feeding this cycle of "us vs. them".

I think this whole thing could be solved if people would just use a more disarming tone and be more interested in having a conversation that leads to understanding than in just making their point and proving they're right. I think that fans of a work are among the most interested in having discussions about its content, but they don't necessarily want to be made to feel like they themselves are on trial for liking a work that someone else doesn't enjoy. And when you have people who seem, from their tone, to be only interested in putting fans on the defensive, it leads to question like the one that started this thread: "Why watch a show you don't like?"

So I find that some people often say "fans don't want to have their favourite show criticised", but I think it's more that nobody wants to feel like they themselves are being criticised for their subjective personal tastes. The difference between the two (and so the reactions you're going to get as a result) comes down to the way each person chooses to express themselves. Change the tone, and you'll probably change the reaction.
Well you can't just put the blame on the ones criticizing the show. Both parties are to be blamed for this "us vs them" war that more often than not hijacks the more popular shows threads. The most simple example is when someone rates something 7-8, giving proper reasoning for it, and you have fans of that show "flaming"(well I can't come up with a more milder word atm) the said poster for not giving a higher rating.
I agree that people who aren't interested in the show shouldn't waste their time watching it - unless of course you're a reviewer or blogger. But the way fans just decide to deny that their show can have/has flaws is just not healthy for any discussion just as much as mindless bashing isn't.
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Old 2012-11-08, 14:51   Link #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I think that, nine times out of ten, this isn't actually about "not wanting criticism", but because of the tone of the person doing the criticising. Sometimes people have a bit of an "I'm here to tell you what the flaws in this show are; prove me wrong" attitude about things, and a lot of times it's just personal preference being passed off as a objective unarguable flaws. It's as though them not liking the show is itself proof that the show is "obviously bad". And this sort of attitude gets tiring; first you have to overcome the arrogance barrier and then see if they're actually willing to listen to any other points of view. Often, it just becomes an argument, rather than a discussion. Those people often turn around and say "See?! Fanboys don't want anyone to criticise their 'precious' flawed work!" and so become even more determined and even more presumptive, feeding this cycle of "us vs. them".
I think you basically just nailed the approach I attempt to take where I just try to be honest about how I feel about a show nowadays as opposed to having an agenda like I sometimes used to in my more childish days, where I was accused of being arrogant with my opinions and perhaps rightly so. Regrettably this new approach still sometimes doesn't work and I end up at the bottom of a dogpile, but I think that owes more to my at times bluntness and admitted lack of knowledge of the types of things people are into these days.

Quote:
I think this whole thing could be solved if people would just use a more disarming tone and be more interested in having a conversation that leads to understanding than in just making their point and proving they're right. I think that fans of a work are among the most interested in having discussions about its content, but they don't necessarily want to be made to feel like they themselves are on trial for liking a work that someone else doesn't enjoy. And when you have people who seem, from their tone, to be only interested in putting fans on the defensive, it leads to question like the one that started this thread: "Why watch a show you don't like?
I think people just need to not be so blindingly obvious when it comes to what they are in a thread for. I'm sure nobody wants to hear someone just citing only what they dislike about a show day in and day out (i.e whining) and I think the problem is that a lot of the time the people that do this sort of thing end up thread hijacking for periods of time. I remember one experience when I was watching Gundam 00 and Code Geass R2 there was this guy that hated both shows, and I mean HATED them with an obviously fiery passion, but what ultimately got under my skin wasn't his extreme opinions, it was that he would not stop posting over and over again rehashing the same tired complaints often with only one other post separating another one and to the point where he would regularly have an overwhelming share of the posts in the episode threads and it just became impossible for others to have a real discussion. Basically I think it's when these people start believing that the thread belongs to them as opposed to the fans in general that you have the biggest problems. There's after all plenty of ways to have a contrasting opinion without having to be a total loudmouth asshole about it. We aren't political pundits here after all.

Quote:
So I find that some people often say "fans don't want to have their favourite show criticised", but I think it's more that nobody wants to feel like they themselves are being criticised for their subjective personal tastes. The difference between the two (and so the reactions you're going to get as a result) comes down to the way each person chooses to express themselves. Change the tone, and you'll probably change the reaction.
Pretty much exactly how I felt in the above stated case. It's no fun for anyone to be told that their shows don't matter and that they are somehow wrong for liking what they like, it's a valuable lesson I've learned through experience and has lead to a huge change in how I approach the subject of discussing anime with others. Though one thing I will say is that there are some cases where even when I try to take a respectful tone the simple act of not joining the chorus in pure adoration of a show has still lead to my getting dumped on by fans. There are cases where the dissenter in a thread is not the true aggressor and I think it's important to be aware of this reality when weighing how to moderate a tense situation.

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Originally Posted by Eragon View Post
Well you can't just put the blame on the ones criticizing the show. Both parties are to be blamed for this "us vs them" war that more often than not hijacks the more popular shows threads. The most simple example is when someone rates something 7-8, giving proper reasoning for it, and you have fans of that show "flaming"(well I can't come up with a more milder word atm) the said poster for not giving a higher rating.
I agree that people who aren't interested in the show shouldn't waste their time watching it - unless of course you're a reviewer or blogger. But the way fans just decide to deny that their show can have/has flaws is just not healthy for any discussion just as much as mindless bashing isn't.
One time I attempted to give a pretty in depth live (as in while I watching it and thoughts afterward) analysis of a high profile anime movie in it's thread and ended up giving it a 7/10 score at the end which is a great score by my standards and got accused of being a hater and for not "getting it" simply because I felt the beginning of the movie was too drawn out and that the way some aspects of what a certain character did felt like they created plot holes and were to the detriment of another's development up to that point brought it down to much to justify giving it any higher praise. I was kind of beside myself as to how I could say a movie was good and yet still be accused of being a petty hater and tried to explain my reasonings, but found I wasn't making any ground and the more people attacked me for my opinion the less I felt inclined to answer them until I essentially decided that said fan group was patently unreasonable and packed up and really haven't returned to or had much positive to say about said fan group since. Again I really think it helps to realize that sometimes the dissenter is not the aggressor in all instances. I think tolerance for dissenters who give their time to share a unique perspective compared to the majority and tolerance for people who like things that one doesn't like are both necessary in order to avoid heated arguments that go nowhere. It has to go both ways.

Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2012-11-08 at 15:23.
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Old 2012-11-08, 15:03   Link #64
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I feel a great problem is that it often can go beyond a show to the people themselves.

Zealous fans sometimes project themselves into a show and it's success, thus an attack on the show is an attack on them.

On the other hand, zealous critics will project their anger onto the show's fans because they are what the show manifests to them in.

Angry Critic: "I think Key promotes too many retarded characters!"
Angry Fan: "Wait, are you saying I like retarded characters? Implying that I'm retarded too."
Troll: Yes
Though, perhaps we could use less inflammatory words.

Often times this leads to arguments that have nothing to do with a show itself, ranging from the decline of anime to the fact that today's kids have no moral values. Or some other useless shit.

Have you ever heard the term "overrated" as a criticism of a show? Sure, it's fine to label a show overrated, but how does the way people view a show improve or detract from the quality of the show itself?

At the same time, you might have had the appeal to majority argument thrown out to you as some kind of way to reduce an argument. 2001: A Space Odyssey is a work renowned by many. I don't care. The book is much better anyways.

By the way, stop telling people "they don't get it". Of course they don't get it, that's why this even happened in the first place. I feel that there must be a reason to entice people to get the meaning of a show. Sometimes people also reject a message even if they do get it.

IMO, for any honest debate to occur, one must be able to express what THEY think to the rest of everyone else. Not what the critics think, not what they think everyone else thinks, but to have their own viewpoint instead of just leaping on a fan/hater bandwagon. Nobody wants overly polarized, stratified debate. If I wanted that, I'd tune to the politics of the United States. :S

Also, if you're debating to change the other side's mind, you're doing it wrong.

P.S. And no offense to anyone that does this, but saying "No offense" doesn't magically allow you to say whatever dickish thing you were going to say anyways. No offense, but that's just being dishonest; if you want to say something offensive, then do it without the pretense.
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Old 2012-11-08, 15:38   Link #65
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I find when people say "no offense" it tends to be extremely offensive.

And yeah the tone of the criticism matters a lot. I also think where you criticize can have an impact. For example if you are criticizing on a review or episode discussion that is one thing...but if you are going to a place where fans are just having fun I think that is rude. Intentions definitely matter.


Edit: And yeah overrated tends to be a catch all phrase for "I don't like it". I try not to use it for that. If I use it tends to be only for series I enjoy but I still think gets too much praise in comparison to less popular series. Of course even in this sense it's still just an opinion.

But too many people talk like their opinion is some undisputed fact.
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Old 2012-11-08, 15:39   Link #66
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Have you ever heard the term "overrated" as a criticism of a show? Sure, it's fine to label a show overrated, but how does the way people view a show improve or detract from the quality of the show itself?
I’m with you there. Being “overrated” is not the show’s fault. Also, I think when someone says a show is overrated, he/she is blaming the fans of the show (who overrate it), not the show itself. I know I do .
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Old 2012-11-08, 20:02   Link #67
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On the subject of criticism, I've noticed that everybody is fine with one liners when the opinion is unanimous but demands a five-page thesis when you're disagreeing. Sigh...

My solution: five-page thesis on everything.
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Old 2012-11-08, 20:24   Link #68
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Originally Posted by Akito Kinomoto View Post
On the subject of criticism, I've noticed that everybody is fine with one liners when the opinion is unanimous but demands a five-page thesis when you're disagreeing. Sigh...

My solution: five-page thesis on everything.
No.



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Btw - cute new avy Akito.
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Old 2012-11-08, 22:26   Link #69
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Well you can't just put the blame on the ones criticizing the show. Both parties are to be blamed for this "us vs them" war that more often than not hijacks the more popular shows threads. The most simple example is when someone rates something 7-8, giving proper reasoning for it, and you have fans of that show "flaming"(well I can't come up with a more milder word atm) the said poster for not giving a higher rating.
I agree that people who aren't interested in the show shouldn't waste their time watching it - unless of course you're a reviewer or blogger. But the way fans just decide to deny that their show can have/has flaws is just not healthy for any discussion just as much as mindless bashing isn't.
If your goal is to have a conversation, you'll have to accept that there will always be some "hopeless cases" on all sides. Trying to convince these people is hopeless, and arguing with them is pointless. So you probably shouldn't use these people as a barometer for what a reasonable fan is like. If people are being overly-dismissive or launching personal attacks, then just report them and let the staff deal with it. We do, incidentally, moderate these posts all the time. But you can't "legislate" that people be open-minded. The best you can do when posting a contrary opinion is to try to be disarming and polite, and those who want to carry on a reasonable discussion can do so.

(I've seen people try to argue before that the very sight of the "blind fanboy" is offensive, and this is what causes people to be so attacking in their critique. But why get offended by unreasonable people? That doesn't mean there aren't any reasonable fans out there; they may just have to cut through the noise from time to time.)
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Old 2012-11-09, 04:29   Link #70
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I used to watch a lot of bad shows because I had a lot of time. I still ended up dropping them sometime down the line and felt I completely wasted my time doing it. Now that I have less time I stick with the 1 episode rule. If it doesn't make me want to watch the next episode I'll drop it.

If it turns out good I'll hear about it and pick it up down the line. I have a pretty big back log anyways so there's no need to watch stuff on release.
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Old 2012-11-09, 04:35   Link #71
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
If your goal is to have a conversation, you'll have to accept that there will always be some "hopeless cases" on all sides.
But that's what Eragon is saying. Since you can find those kind of people on both sides, you can't really put all the blame on one or another.

The kind of behavior you described is certainly wrong, but sometimes there are people that simply express their criticism and yet some angry fans do not see the difference and threat them like they are obnoxious party poopers. The "cycle of us vs them" can happen regardless of your critical attitude, when you deal with people that don't want any criticism at all. You can say "well you shouldn't be baited by that", true, but once again this still works both ways.
Answering to a flaming closed minded angry fan isn't any more wrong than answering to a flaming arrogant basher.

To make an example: I have once been insta-flamed after a review of a work that I considered near perfect. I just mentioned two flaws.
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Old 2012-11-09, 04:47   Link #72
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Doesn't this also depend on where (like which kind of forum you are on) when criticizing a show? It's usually more civil here than let's say the obvious 2chan or 4chan.
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Old 2012-11-09, 05:00   Link #73
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Doesn't this also depend on where (like which kind of forum you are on) when criticizing a show? It's usually more civil here than let's say the obvious 2chan or 4chan.
If you're not prepared to be insulted and flamed on a regular basis you should steer clear of 4chan.

But then again that's just how things work there. You don't get as much offended by a friend calling you idiot than you would if it was a total stranger.

Anyway, I think everyone here was talking about their experiences in this particular forum.
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Old 2012-11-09, 06:01   Link #74
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It's fun to criticize.
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Old 2012-11-09, 06:05   Link #75
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But that's what Eragon is saying. Since you can find those kind of people on both sides, you can't really put all the blame on one or another.
No, but I'm putting the responsibility on each individual posting here who is aware of this issue to adjust their own behaviour and try to be part of the solution, and not just lament that the problem exists and continue to perpetuate it. Each person can only change their own behaviour, after all.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
To make an example: I have once been insta-flamed after a review of a work that I considered near perfect. I just mentioned two flaws.
I assume you're talking about rep? Rep can be given for any reason under the sun. I could decide one day "I don't like people whose handles start with J" and just start giving neg rep to everyone to everyone with a J handle. It means nothing. If you take the threat of neg-rep as some sort of disincentive to post your honest opinion, then you're just "letting the terrorists win", as it were.

I still say the questions to ask are things like: was I being constructive? Was I being considerate? Was I being fair? Did I read the thread in question before posting to make sure I was reading the mood of the room (and not just cold-posting)? Was my main interest in being inclusive and understanding? If you answered yes to all these things (and similar), then you've done what you can.

I don't know about your specific example, so perhaps there was some specific reason why this may have made sense in context. Sometimes it isn't whether you liked something overall or not, but that the person disagrees with whatever specific flaw you listed for whatever reason. It might give the impression that they want nothing but praise, but perhaps it's just that specific criticism they find tiring. Who knows...
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Old 2012-11-09, 06:18   Link #76
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No that wasn't an issue with reputation. You can't really call it "flame" when you get negrepped, as bad as it can be sometimes it can't really degenerate in a heated and pointless discussion.

Quote:
Was I being constructive? Was I being considerate? Was I being fair? Was my main interest in being inclusive and understanding?
I always think I am, but there's always the chance that someone will think I wasn't.

Quote:
Did I read the thread in question before posting to make sure I was reading the mood of the room (and not just cold-posting)?
Depends on what you mean by that. Am I supposed to read a 60 pages long thread in its entirety before posting my opinion?
This forum tends to have homugous threads in terms of word counts, and they also can have a life span of several years.
Expecting someone to read the whole thread in order to avoid restating issues that have been discussed two years before is really dickish in my opinion.
And just because someone has done the same critique before, it doesn't mean I shouldn't be entitled to express the same opinion. In the same way several persons can state that they liked X because of Y even if a hundred persons said the same thing before.
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Old 2012-11-09, 07:36   Link #77
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I skipped through a good chunk of the thread, but I'm going drop in my opinion anyway.

It's not really all that bad here. In a certain forum I go to (which is, admittedly, not anime-related), posters react particularly badly towards criticisms, or another in which no discussion whatsoever happens at all. I'm really glad that some semblance of discussion usually happens here, but I don't really frequent the SAO subforum or any of the other threads for more popular series, so I might be mistaken.

On the OP's question, I do usually drop a show that gradually gets worse and worse. Sometimes, you just can't help but keep doing so especially as a series gets longer. It becomes increasingly harder to let go of, but that really is a personal choice in the end. If want to say what I think of a bad show, there should be nothing wrong with me saying it. Opinions are opinions after all.

One of these days, someone should create separate threads for praises and criticisms in the subforums. Maybe that will make everyone happy... though probably not.
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Old 2012-11-09, 08:02   Link #78
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Originally Posted by Vladrave View Post
It's fun to criticize.
It depends on how you criticize.... I learned my lessons..

Non sense criticism can either make them laugh or hate you....
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Old 2012-11-09, 12:19   Link #79
Akito Kinomoto
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Depends on what you mean by that. Am I supposed to read a 60 pages long thread in its entirety before posting my opinion?
This forum tends to have homugous threads in terms of word counts, and they also can have a life span of several years.
Expecting someone to read the whole thread in order to avoid restating issues that have been discussed two years before is really dickish in my opinion.
And just because someone has done the same critique before, it doesn't mean I shouldn't be entitled to express the same opinion. In the same way several persons can state that they liked X because of Y even if a hundred persons said the same thing before.
You could always use your better judgment to follow the last conversation. And make sure you're not responding to anyone who posted in the thread several months ago.

And you can say what you want to repetition not withstanding but it just becomes more difficult to do so as time goes on. Whether the difficulty stems from trying to have a substantial discussion or trying to avoid people telling you we've talked about this before or something to that effect. It's like, say, the upteenth Kugimiya romance anime; produce it if you want to but expect your share of
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Old 2012-11-09, 15:33   Link #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
If your goal is to have a conversation, you'll have to accept that there will always be some "hopeless cases" on all sides. Trying to convince these people is hopeless, and arguing with them is pointless. So you probably shouldn't use these people as a barometer for what a reasonable fan is like. If people are being overly-dismissive or launching personal attacks, then just report them and let the staff deal with it. We do, incidentally, moderate these posts all the time. But you can't "legislate" that people be open-minded. The best you can do when posting a contrary opinion is to try to be disarming and polite, and those who want to carry on a reasonable discussion can do so.
Ugh, deep down, I know you are probably right about this. But you know people get this urge a lot in the internet: "to correct others for their mistake" or something to that effect. Even if fully knowing that it is futile, sometimes I just can't help engaging with what you call "the hopeless case" in hope they are "enlightened" (especially since animesuki is the most "civilized" and "sophisticated" anime forum I currently know). Maybe because I haven't lurked in the more chaotic parts of the internet enough to discard this attitude.
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