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Old 2012-11-11, 02:45   Link #3081
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Why am I thinking the Latino vote won't believe the "sudden change of heart"?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolit...with-hispanics

I can see the next "Todd Akin" politician from a red state saying something heartfelt but very stupid and a source of a great deal of controversy. "The republican party really cherishes the Latino and Hispanic populace of America. I mean, hey, at least you guys ain't the blacks!".
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Old 2012-11-11, 02:58   Link #3082
monir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Why am I thinking the Latino vote won't believe the "sudden change of heart"?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolit...with-hispanics
They better make the Latino voters believe. A democratic win in the 2016 presidential race essentially guarantee a full sweep of the house (we'll know by 2014), senate, and the SUPREME C-O-U-R-T.

One way to do that would be to tone down or even pull the plug on some of these colorful talking-heads in conservative TV and Radio. States like Arizona and Alabama aren't helping to sway the Latino votes either.
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Old 2012-11-11, 03:37   Link #3083
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
They better make the Latino voters believe. A democratic win in the 2016 presidential race essentially guarantee a full sweep of the house (we'll know by 2014), senate, and the SUPREME C-O-U-R-T.

One way to do that would be to tone down or even pull the plug on some of these colorful talking-heads in conservative TV and Radio. States like Arizona and Alabama aren't helping to sway the Latino votes either.
They'll have to jettison the "southern dixiecrat" vote that jumped the Dem ship in 1964 over to the GOP when the Civil Rights Act passed. They and their "children" comprise a fair part of the 'scary part of the tent' many find so easy to make fun of. These are the folks who shut Bush, Jr. down in 2000 when he tried to make immigration reform a centerpiece of his first administration ... yes, that scary.
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Old 2012-11-11, 03:42   Link #3084
Urzu 7
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The two party system ain't going anywhere too soon. The GOP has become terrible. Maybe they will try to improve themselves now, after losing this election. You know, I hope that the person who wins the 2016 presidential election is a democrat. This way, the GOP really will change. The GOP is willing to make some changes so that they can win in 2016, but they are hesitant to change all that much. They'll want to cling to a lot of their ways. If they win in 2016, they won't change as much as they could if they end up losing in 2016 instead. They are way too far to the right currently. If they lose in 2016, maybe they'll end up going close to the center instead of being extremely to the right. If they were moderate on social issues but still were committed to being fiscally conservative, all while axing some of the major faults of the party, that might be a party to get behind.
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Old 2012-11-11, 03:54   Link #3085
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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I don't need GOP to go to the centre; I need the GOP to start living in reality, and to propose Fiscal Conservative governance that's actually anywhere close to GENUINE.

They can go has far right as they like, but they need to take their job seriously. Right now, they are just clowns confused at why people are not laughing. Not realising that they are not suppose to be clowns but public servants.

No, belief can't trump reality. Not unless you are running a religious institution. Governing requires that you know what you are dealing with. The GOP showed how bad they got by being unable to even notice they were losing the election. That's grade A incompetence.

The US government read charts and statistics every single day. I would hate to imagine the GOP declaring them all to be biased and instead make up numbers they like more. Sure, by all means lie to your voters; but don't be so dumb as to brainwash yourselves too.
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Old 2012-11-11, 04:04   Link #3086
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I don't need GOP to go to the centre; I need the GOP to start living in reality, and to propose Fiscal Conservative governance that's actually anywhere close to GENUINE.

They can go has far right as they like, but they need to take their job seriously. Right now, they are just clowns confused at why people are not laughing. Not realising that they are not suppose to be clowns but public servants.

No, belief can't trump reality. Not unless you are running a religious institution. Governing requires that you know what you are dealing with. The GOP showed how bad they got by being unable to even notice they were losing the election. That's grade A incompetence.
You know things are bad with them when they try crashing the country and making it's economic recovery stall for four years straight, this being their very best plan for winning the 2012 election. They ended up leaving the country in pretty rough shape when they handed it over to Obama, and then their best plan to win the 2012 election was to hurt and damage America some more. Brilliant. The republican party needs to die and then be reborn into something better. They need to strip down their party and rebuild it into something better, they really do.
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Old 2012-11-11, 04:08   Link #3087
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Which is why Obama should not have signed onto the federal version of Romneycare and should have instead pushed for a version of healthcare as invisioned by Thomas Jefferson.

Thomas Jefferson Also Supported Government Run Health Care
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plu...erson_sup.html
I'm aware of the older proposals for healthcare. There is no way you can push through single payer without everyone on board. You're fighting HUGE amounts of money and people swayed more by opinion than facts. You have to make inroads. The public option could have gone in, and liberals were a bit miffed at the idea that all of this stuff was negotiated away to get Republican votes, they didn't vote for it, so you're just going to pass it as is? It's a bad taste. The behind the scenes stories are interesting though. The bill really is a deal made between government and corporations. *cue dramatic music here*

Quote:
I am not a Libertarian personally, I vote Libertarian because they are the closest thing I can vote for to a classical liberal.
That's why I said you're big on it, not that you are one. You frequently advocate similar positions to libertarianism, not that you're wrong for it or anything. It's just what you believe.


Quote:
We partially agree here.
Healthcare is not an imperative, it's a good idea, but not a right in and of itself.
It is a service, and if we want our society to be where everyone has it, we must either amend the constitition and make it a right protected by it, or we must make it a service that is provided for using the taxing power of congress.
As it stands it is a mandate to buy a product or pay a penalty, and thus it is more a benefit to the insurance companies and IRS than it is to the people.
Interesting how it either benefits corporations or the government, but not the citizenry at large.
The marriage of corporation and state is the reason for the nonsense that is the AFA.
Healthcare isn't a product, it is needed for basic survival of the species. We could have put it into the Constitution, but since that never happened we got it as this mess. The marriage of corporation and state is the problem, certainly. The insurance industry is a middle man that should never have existed to begin with.

Bear in mind I don't have many issues with what the bill is trying to fix, but rather the way it attempts to do so. There just isn't enough political capital yet for a true single payer system, unfortunately.

Quote:
That's because these companies (like Big-Pharma) are huge corporations that have been allowed to destroy the system through profiteering, drug laws (like the prohibition of holistic remedies such as marajiuana) and other corporatist practices.
This is a bit of a strawman. You aren't incorrect, but it's not the whole picture. Companies are nothing more than a way to profit from goods and services. They are self serving before all else. It is not in the interest of a company to fix a problem, unless it becomes a matter of life and death for the company. Problems mean opportunities for more profit. Why cure diseases when you can treat them? Why prevent pollution if you can profit from cleaning it up? In a world driven by money, is it any wonder we find it so difficult to solve problems? It takes forcible change, through policy or technology, to make progress. I wish this wasn't true, but that's our history so far.

Quote:
Government. No.
Political parties. Yes.
You know, the Democrat-Republican Party.

We had a fantastic government (though flawed in many ways) before the corporatists began altering it into something it was never intended to be (starting in 1913): a totalitarian system.
Washington was never a fan of the party system, but it is only natural for them to form when extremes in interests appear. I wouldn't say we had a fantastic government (that's too much rose colored goggles for my taste), in fact it's always been rather dysfunctional and full of special interests - especially rich ones. It's been punctuated by moments of people and leadership giving the finger to the establishment to a large enough degree that things change for the better, but progress happens in fits and starts.

Quote:
I partially disagree with your vision of government.
We agree that government is a tool.
We're we disagree is what the nature of that tool is.
History has shown without doubt that government has the power vested in it to use force: be that force war, taxes, imprisonment or other powers.
Therefore, the primary function of government is force, nothing more, nothing less, and that force must be controlled lest it become extremely destructive.
It is for this reason that classical liberals like myself hold that the government that governs least governs best.
Government is what you make of it. It is the people that determine the government they want, but they have to be invested in that change to see it through. It is not the duopoly and force of government that people should fear, it is themselves. They are the instruments of change. It's the very purpose of a representative democracy - send the guy who advocates what you believe, and fire him if he doesn't represent you satisfactorily.

Big or small, it doesn't matter. Taken to the extreme, the only good government is one that doesn't exist at all. Since that's an unpalatable concept to most, it's up to the people to determine what they want the government to do for them, and to pull it back when they think it goes too far.

Quote:
Governing is telling you how to live: i.e. excercising authority over a person or persons through the administration of policy and/or laws.
You will always be told, your entire life, how to live. Much of it will be subconscious. You won't even think about it. Do you use a chopstick or a fork? Do you wear jeans or a toga? Do you speak English or French? Even without government, society enforces the norms of the group. True freedom is an illusion. The better question to ask is "within this framework, can we solve problems with more freedom instead of less?". Sometimes the answer is no, and you move on.

Remember, even the Founding Fathers had slaves. Women and minorities couldn't vote, or even own property. Workers had no rights. For much of history, people just thought this was the way things were, and that they had no reason to change, or that it couldn't change. It's amazing to think back on all the change in the last 236 years, really.

Quote:
Since we're speaking of strictly healthcare here I'll stick to that as my example.
For healthcare to be within the confines of the constitution, the SCOTUS had to declare it a tax because even they said a mandate to buy a product is unconstitutional.
Nevertheless, while it may be a "tax" on paper via the SCOTUS decision, it is in actual practice a mandate to buy a product since you will now HAVE to buy insurance from a private company or pay the penalty to the IRS (if your employer doesn't cover your insurance).
Not quite. The decision was to determine if the classification of the mandate as a tax was constitutional under the commerce clause. They said yes. It's a tax, according to the highest court of law.

I'd rather it just be "Medicare for all"; but I also recognize the complex issues of the matter.

Quote:
I'm curious to know what's going to happen if someone doesn't pay the fine, and doesn't get insurance and is self-employeed.

That is going to be very interesting.
The men in black show up. They don't ask questions.


Quote:
In the united states of America, the contract that creates the Federal government and gives it the jurisdiction and authority is the constutition. It is not a simply words on a piece of paper, it is the contractual agreement between the people of the states and their respective governments to create a central body that will govern interstate issues with an emphasis on common defense, taxes, and uniformity of law and protection of the inalienable rights of citizens of all states.

We bind ourselves to contracts such as these so that anarchy doesn't reign supreme and to protect ourselves from tyranny.
But it is just a piece of paper. What you're clinging to are the ideals of the paper, the symbolism, and those change. Contracts only hold meaning when everyone agrees with them. We all agree on "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"....but the details, not so much.
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Old 2012-11-11, 04:53   Link #3088
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
We all agree on "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"....but the details, not so much.
I think for people that oppose gay marriage, they are throwing the 'liberty' and 'pursuit of happiness' parts out of the window when it comes to that. But they don't care. Most of these people have no real respect for LGBT people.
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Old 2012-11-11, 05:48   Link #3089
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
I think for people that oppose gay marriage, they are throwing the 'liberty' and 'pursuit of happiness' parts out of the window when it comes to that. But they don't care. Most of these people have no real respect for LGBT people.
Well of course not, it goes back to basically any society's treatment of any "not normal" group of people. We can say whatever we want really but that's what it boils down to, "Those people aren't like -us-", and thinking a thought like that almost always coincides with the thought that the -us- are better, superior people because -we- aren't like them.
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Old 2012-11-11, 05:56   Link #3090
Mr. DJ
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Gotta love Ted Nugent

from a friend of mine

Ted Nugent is Crazy, Sky is Still Blue

So how did Ted Nugent take Obama's re-election? I'm sure with civility and class, right?

Of course not.

From the Wango Tango's Twitter itself:

Quote:
Pimps whores & welfare brats & their soulless supporters hav a president to destroy America
Quote:
What subhuman varmint believes others must pay for their obesity booze cellphones birthcontrol abortions & lives

Quote:
Goodluk America u just voted for economic & spiritual suicide. Soulless fools
A few things:

#1. Just because you are on Twitter doesn't mean you have to type like a moron. Use your words.

#2. What kind of subhuman varmint believes others must pay for cellphones? Apparently George W Bush and the largest maker of cellphones, Tracefone, since they were the ones that made the change from landline to cellphone. And I guess you can throw Woodrow Wilson in there, too.

#3. Does Ted Nugent know something about food stamps that I do not? Where can you buy booze with food stamps? And you want to know why so many people on food stamps happen to be obese? Because the cheapest food also happens to be the unhealthiest. Oopsie!
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Old 2012-11-11, 06:15   Link #3091
Urzu 7
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All these people having meltdowns about the election need to get real and start getting angry with the GOP for descending so low and not having their shit together. They need to start demanding the GOP to be better. And if they don't and they lose the 2016 election, these people will have severe meltdowns. And I'm sure so many of them won't blame their pwecious republican party then, either. They'll blame and hate on the democrats, liberals, and moderates some more than, too. Most of them just don't realize their party of choice needs a lot of improvement.
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Old 2012-11-11, 06:41   Link #3092
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but that requires them to put personal responsibility, that one thing that Liberals supposedly don't have, on Republicans!
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Old 2012-11-11, 08:24   Link #3093
Netto Azure
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I'd rather it just be "Medicare for all"; but I also recognize the complex issues of the matter.
Yeah, I've been really into the Healthcare issue since 2008 and it really is very complex. It's really a series of trade-offs and whether or not a society is willing to act on specific things. One could argue that a countries health system reflects that countries values.

I could get a lot deeper into this, but in the end all I have to say is that the US is a patchwork of different types of Healthcare systems that gives rise to the unique problem of cost shifting in the US.

As for Immigration...2005-2006 really was a dichotomy for the Republican Party, by proposing the Border Protection, Anti-terrorism and Illegal Immigration Control Act of 2005 it alienated much of the growing Latino community from what I saw around here. Although the Bush administration (with John McCain I might add) did react to the mass protests in 2006 with the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2006 in the Senate, which more than likely is what we'll get in the end of the horse trading in the Obama 2nd term (As he said frankly if anyone noticed).

You know what's funny, for the real deficit hawks, they should pray that Congress continues it's gridlock for the "fiscal cliff." Doing nothing will make the Bush Tax Cuts expire thereby raising revenue for the gov't to reduce the deficit and the Sequester trigger is already Spending cuts legislated. Still it will definitely send us into recession like the rest of Europe with their austerity packages, But austerity chicken little's are crying that we'll become like Greece anyways. Which ironically we will be like either way if we do austerity and if counter-cyclical spending doesn't pick up as we slide back into recession. Yes it will be massively painful economically, but hey austerity right? Gotta sacrifice and tighten our belts to pay down the national debt. (Personally, I'd rather have a real stimulus program of direct government transfers and wait until we have recovered economically before trying to tackle deficits and debt. But meh)
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Old 2012-11-11, 10:27   Link #3094
mangamuscle
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Sadly the republican party has been a headless chicken since 2008 with only one directive "stay the course" and atm I do not see them changing the course, they are just selecting their next set of lies to attempt to deceive voters. They might be talking immigration reform right now, but in the end what they will legislate will be a botched abortion just like healthcare reform.

So we have two possibilities:

1. The democrats get too full of themselves and make the republicans win the 2018 election.

2. The republicans party disappears at the federal level, the democrats get too full of themselves, they end up making a mess and finally divide into the fiscal conservatives and liberals.

In the end everything will change to stay just the same.
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Old 2012-11-11, 11:03   Link #3095
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
What? Texas really did that? What were their reasons?
After public outrage about the State Board of Education's removal of Thomas Jefferson from a list of influential philosophers, a clearly irritated board has released a statement complaining of "erroneous" media reports and detailing other references to Jefferson in the social studies standards.
“The only individual mentioned more times in the curriculum standards than Thomas Jefferson is George Washington,” the release, issued Friday, quotes board chair Gail Lowe as saying. “We expect students at the elementary level, in middle school and in high school to study the Founding Fathers and to be well versed in their contributions to our country. That includes Thomas Jefferson and his legacy."


http://www.texastribune.org/texas-ed...-blames-media/
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Old 2012-11-11, 13:19   Link #3096
Ithekro
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The problem will be this little issue, when it comes to the Democratic and Republican parties:
Barack Obama---61910594
Mitt Romney----58654765

Over 58 million people voted for Romney whle nearly 62 million voted for Obama. While that is a about a 4 millions person difference, there is still a large number of people that vote Republican. They cannot all be stupid. They have there reasons aside from what would be classed as the silly ones.
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Old 2012-11-11, 13:37   Link #3097
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
After public outrage about the State Board of Education's removal of Thomas Jefferson from a list of influential philosophers, a clearly irritated board has released a statement complaining of "erroneous" media reports and detailing other references to Jefferson in the social studies standards.
“The only individual mentioned more times in the curriculum standards than Thomas Jefferson is George Washington,” the release, issued Friday, quotes board chair Gail Lowe as saying. “We expect students at the elementary level, in middle school and in high school to study the Founding Fathers and to be well versed in their contributions to our country. That includes Thomas Jefferson and his legacy."


http://www.texastribune.org/texas-ed...-blames-media/
Hi, I'm from Texas and I have watched the State Board of Education's shenanigans and failures for the last 40ish years. They deserve all the shit thrown at them. They annually fall over and take it from the anti-reality crackpots. So Ms. Lowe should review the history of her own Board, eh?
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Old 2012-11-11, 13:44   Link #3098
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The problem will be this little issue, when it comes to the Democratic and Republican parties:
Barack Obama---61910594
Mitt Romney----58654765

Over 58 million people voted for Romney whle nearly 62 million voted for Obama. While that is a about a 4 millions person difference, there is still a large number of people that vote Republican. They cannot all be stupid. They have there reasons aside from what would be classed as the silly ones.
They can't all be stupid?

Maybe you should wonder why EVERY one of the following nations prefer Obama to Romney with the understandable exception of Pakistan. (And Israel, which isn't listed here.)

Can the rest of the planet be all stupid?


You assume Romney is a good president and the GOP is a good party, by assuming the American population is wise and can't possibility give this man and his party so many votes.
What is your basis for the Americans being wise? Because the rest of the world think you are absolutely NUTS that Romney got this close.

Romney is either a good candidate or the GOP voters are stupid. You believe the former. The rest of the planet, the majority of the human race, believe the latter.

Look, I didn't want to bring smart/dumb into this. But you are the one who brought up voter intellect. You are the one to claim the GOP is not losing because GOP supporters "can't be all stupid".
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Old 2012-11-11, 13:49   Link #3099
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The problem will be this little issue, when it comes to the Democratic and Republican parties:
Barack Obama---61910594
Mitt Romney----58654765

Over 58 million people voted for Romney whle nearly 62 million voted for Obama. While that is a about a 4 millions person difference, there is still a large number of people that vote Republican. They cannot all be stupid. They have there reasons aside from what would be classed as the silly ones.
They are plenty of reasons to vote republican without needing to be stupid. Many forget, but a lot of voters are not voting for a specific candidate, but rather specific ideas that one candidate (or party) may partake in over another. A vast majority of the people who voted for Romney probably thought he was a tool, but they also probably thought that he or his party would do something to create a smaller and more efficient government, or they believe a republican in the white house would be better if Iran does become nuclear, or they simply believed that Romney would be more likely to choose a more traditional Justice. They are plenty of reasons to vote republican that have nothing to do with personal opinions of the candidate.
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Old 2012-11-11, 13:50   Link #3100
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
They cannot all be stupid. They have there reasons aside from what would be classed as the silly ones.
Stupid is a harsh word, but that line of thought is akin to "millions of people cannot be wrong" which is a fallacy if you think it for a moment. So maybe you are trying to say "Half of americans cannot lack high enough education" or "American votes are driven by facts". Well, I completely disagree.
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