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Old 2012-11-11, 13:59   Link #3101
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
They can't all be stupid?

Maybe you should wonder why EVERY one of the following nations prefer Obama to Romney with the understandable exception of Pakistan. (And Israel, which isn't listed here.)

Can the rest of the planet be all stupid?


You assume Romney is a good president and the GOP is a good party, by assuming the American population is wise and can't possibility give this man and his party so many votes.
What is your basis for the Americans being wise? Because the rest of the world think you are absolutely NUTS that Romney got this close.

Romney is either a good candidate or the GOP voters are stupid. You believe the former. The rest of the planet, the majority of the human race, believe the latter.

Look, I didn't want to bring smart/dumb into this. But you are the one who brought up voter intellect. You are the one to claim the GOP is not losing because GOP supporters "can't be all stupid".
The rest of the world who don't precisely have the same kind of stake in it as the Americans. Romney was running for PotUS, not President of the World, though I can see how one could make the confusion.

While I don't put any more stock than you do in the wisdom of the 58 millions who voted for him, I wouldn't rely on the people all over the world who got polled either.
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Old 2012-11-11, 14:02   Link #3102
Ithekro
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The difference is that none of those people live here. Reality is that people here that voted Romney either want the Republican policies, or just don't want the Democratic policies and can't find a credible third party to vote for instead.

Not everyone believes in welfare. Not everyone has the interests of society as number one. Many of them are just trying to survive themselves and resent being taxed for somethat they believe does them no good. They do not, or will not use government programs if they can avoid it, because they don't believe in them, or they would rather follow the older ideology that everyone should take care of themselves and their family.

They don't want government in their lives at all, which to them is what the Democratic Party represents since the New Deal in the 1930s. The hard stance against taxes is mostly these people, which is another reason they are for the Republican Party.

And that's before we get to those that have even more slanted views of the parties via the propaganda that brings the "Socialism is Communism", and the "destruction of the Constitution", or the "degrading of morality and society" that comes from the mostly sane but more traditionally minded "Baby Boomers" and the remains of the "Greatest Generation". Especially those that didn't like FDR or Truman.
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Old 2012-11-11, 14:04   Link #3103
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
They are plenty of reasons to vote republican without needing to be stupid. Many forget, but a lot of voters are not voting for a specific candidate, but rather specific ideas that one candidate (or party) may partake in over another.
Ideas are nice, but facts have more substance to them.

Quote:
A vast majority of the people who voted for Romney probably thought he was a tool, but they also probably thought that he or his party would do something to create a smaller and more efficient government,
Reagan talked a lot about smaller efficient goverment, but since then no republican president has shrinked in real terms the size of the USA goverment, they did quite the opposite.

Quote:
or they believe a republican in the white house would be better if Iran does become nuclear,
Since before I was born we have lived under the menace or mutual nuclear anihilation, let them have their own balance of terror (of course I mean Israel and Iran), if they do push the button and create the first nuclear wasteland on earth it will be a lesson for the rest of mankind. In the end iran is not nazi germany nor the USSR, they are too far and too small to really be of any real relevance.

Quote:
or they simply believed that Romney would be more likely to choose a more traditional Justice. They are plenty of reasons to vote republican that have nothing to do with personal opinions of the candidate.
I would say instead that there is plenty of propaganda if one chooses to drink that kool-aid, but I don't see any real facts to believe either candidate (or party) is good, just that one of them is the lesser evil.
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Old 2012-11-11, 14:08   Link #3104
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
The rest of the world who don't precisely have the same kind of stake in it as the Americans. Romney was running for PotUS, not President of the World, though I can see how one could make the confusion.

While I don't put any more stock than you do in the wisdom of the 58 millions who voted for him, I wouldn't rely on the people all over the world who got polled either.
My point stands. To argue that American voters are wise by default is no more sensible than to claim the majority of the human race is dumb.

What is the reason for Obama's support by foreigners? The GOP's official excuse is that everyone else wants a weaker America. That allies like England, Australia, and Germany secretly want the Doom of the US and thus want Obama to win.

We have more at stake than Americans do. We foreigners have no voting rights. If America declares WW3 and wants to nuke the planet, the rest of us can do nothing but watch the mushroom cloud. We NEED a sane president because we can't do anything if the POTUS is insane.

Please don't say we have nothing at stake.

Quote:
The difference is that none of those people live here. Reality is that people here that voted Romney either want the Republican policies, or just don't want the Democratic policies and can't find a credible third party to vote for instead.
Jewish Americans vote Obama. Israeli Americans vote Romney. Which of these two Jewish populations live in America?

And Romney lost because HE didn't offer a credible party to vote for. And most people don't even know what Republican policies were going to be under Romney. So if GOP voters vote Romney despite big government and fiscal irresponsibility, what does that say about their mental aptitude? "They cannot all be stupid" needs evidence backing it.
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Old 2012-11-11, 14:10   Link #3105
Ithekro
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At what point did Romney look insane enough to push the button? That would be bad for business as it kills a lot of customers.
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Old 2012-11-11, 14:15   Link #3106
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
My point stands. To argue that American voters are wise by default is no more sensible than to claim the majority of the human race is dumb.

What is the reason for Obama's support by foreigners? The GOP's official excuse is that everyone else wants a weaker America. That allies like England, Australia, and Germany secretly want the Doom of the US and thus want Obama to win.

We have more at stake than Americans do. We foreigners have no voting rights. If America declares WW3 and wants to nuke the planet, the rest of us can do nothing but watch the mushroom cloud. We NEED a sane president because we can't do anything if the POTUS is insane.

Please don't say we have nothing at stake.
That's not what I said. I said we had a different stake. Obama's foreign policy's a lot less dismissive of allies and less warmongering than Romney's shown himself to be. It's natural to like that.

OTOH, our interest for their domestic policies is mostly academic. The Americans are the ones who have to live with them.
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Old 2012-11-11, 14:18   Link #3107
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
Ideas are nice, but facts have more substance to them.
Both sides are just as disingenuous. No one side has the "facts" on their side, and more often than not both sides have varying levels of "facts" to support their ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
Reagan talked a lot about smaller efficient goverment, but since then no republican president has shrinked in real terms the size of the USA goverment, they did quite the opposite.
That's a candidate, and candidates almost never complete their promises, or at least seldom actually complete what they set out to accomplish (case and point, Obama's Health Care reform).

And yes, Reagan is one of America's worst Presidents. There hasn't been a decent Republican president since Nixon, and Nixon had paranoid delusions...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
Since before I was born we have lived under the menace or mutual nuclear anihilation, let them have their own balance of terror (of course I mean Israel and Iran), if they do push the button and create the first nuclear wasteland on earth it will be a lesson for the rest of mankind. In the end iran is not nazi germany nor the USSR, they are too far and too small to really be of any real relevance.
Others disagree with you, considering Iran a serious threat not only against Israel but Europe as well. I personally feel Obama has done a decent job on the issue, but there are many that think he hasn't accomplished enough.

And, these were only brief examples. I could go through the whole litany of real issues (non-social issues) that differentiate the parties, but I'm sure we all know those issues already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
I would say instead that there is plenty of propaganda if one chooses to drink that kool-aid, but I don't see any real facts to believe either candidate (or party) is good, just that one of them is the lesser evil.
Again, I never claimed that people vote for specific candidates, or even really parties. Rather, I specifically emphasized ideas as being a strong contender for why people may vote republican or not.
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Old 2012-11-11, 14:18   Link #3108
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
At what point did Romney look insane enough to push the button? That would be bad for business as it kills a lot of customers.
Killing customers is entirely viable if you get their money first. Or even get their money afterwards. Living customers is not a requirement for profitability. That's what we learned in the last few years.

Actually, that's EXACTLY what American Health Care did before Obamacare. Get customers to pay you money every month/year for health insurance, and once they get sick kick them out for pre-exiting conditions. You get all their money that you were going to earn, and then they can go die in a ditch because they had the gall to ask for their money back. Customers die, Health Insurance gets rich. Win Win.

The wonderful invisible hand of the free market. It takes, but it never giveth.
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Last edited by Vallen Chaos Valiant; 2012-11-11 at 14:28.
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Old 2012-11-11, 14:24   Link #3109
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
They can't all be stupid?

Maybe you should wonder why EVERY one of the following nations prefer Obama to Romney with the understandable exception of Pakistan. (And Israel, which isn't listed here.)

Can the rest of the planet be all stupid?
You know, it's not a very convincing argument when you attack someone for using the "they can't all be wrong" fallacy by using your own "they can't all be wrong" fallacy.

Quote:
You assume Romney is a good president and the GOP is a good party, by assuming the American population is wise and can't possibility give this man and his party so many votes.
What is your basis for the Americans being wise? Because the rest of the world think you are absolutely NUTS that Romney got this close.

Romney is either a good candidate or the GOP voters are stupid. You believe the former. The rest of the planet, the majority of the human race, believe the latter.
Or you can recognize the reality that there are a lot of competing interest in every nation, especially one as large and diverse as the US.

Of course, this applies to the nations surveyed in that poll, you can bet they're thinking about how it'll effect themselves, not the US.

Quote:
Look, I didn't want to bring smart/dumb into this. But you are the one who brought up voter intellect. You are the one to claim the GOP is not losing because GOP supporters "can't be all stupid".
Really? are you seriously claiming that everyone who voted for the GOP are literally stupid? because if that's the case, then you're no better than flying.
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Old 2012-11-11, 14:30   Link #3110
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
You know, it's not a very convincing argument when you attack someone for using the "they can't all be wrong" fallacy by using your own "they can't all be wrong" fallacy.
That's exactly what I am doing. They either agree with me and thus they were wrong, or disagree with me and thus they were STILL wrong.

You can't tell that this is intentional?
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Old 2012-11-11, 14:39   Link #3111
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
That's exactly what I am doing. They either agree with me and thus they were wrong, or disagree with me and thus they were STILL wrong.

You can't tell that this is intentional?
Intentional for what? if you were trying to highlight the fallacy, it didn't come across very well, especially when you consider your posts after that one seems to be arguing in favor that all GOP voters are indeed stupid.

and did you ever consider that maybe he knows someone who voted for GOP that is also intelligent? (very likely quite a few people).

You can argue the semantics, but if you have to bet your life on it, are you gonna go for all GOP voters are stupid or not all GOP voters are stupid?
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Old 2012-11-11, 14:42   Link #3112
Ithekro
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Over 58 million people voted for Ronmey. Each for there own reasons. Some sane, some not sane. The same can be said about the nearly 62 million that voted for Obama. They have their own reasons. Some sane, some not so sane.

Of those roughly 120 millon people, how many are hard liners that only vote for the party? How many are moderates that have key issues that make them side one way or another?

How many don't give a damn what the rest of the world thinks of us or our own foreign policy? How many are only concerned about how the US Government effects them either economocally or socially?

You might find that the major issues between the parties here were domestic in nature. Very little of how people voted were about foreign policy outside the of issues about the safety of our soldiers. The safety of any other country was a non-issue to likely the majority of the American voters. Many of whom might never see another state, much less another country.

I know people that have never left Long Island if that means anything.

(As a note, I am not one of those 120 million. I voted third party because I am tired of both parties).
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Old 2012-11-11, 14:43   Link #3113
mangamuscle
formerly ogon bat
 
 
Join Date: May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
OTOH, our interest for their domestic policies is mostly academic. The Americans are the ones who have to live with them.
That is so false it is not even funny. Since the USA is a superpower domestic policy do affects at the international level. The war on drugs is a clear example, affects the lives of millions of peoples outside the USA. There is also the crop subsides farmers receive, they also do affect economies all the world over. Immigration policy also affects lots of economies since the USA has a huge appetite for a low wage workforce which sends some of their income back home. The USA exerts force to make their laws the same laws in other nations.

In the end it is wishful thinking to say our interest is academic, we are interested since it does affect us and sometimes who becomes potus affects us more than the effect it has on some US citizens.

But this is not an anti-usa ramble, as china raises as an economic power I will probably start saying the same about them.
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Old 2012-11-11, 14:57   Link #3114
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Intentional for what? if you were trying to highlight the fallacy, it didn't come across very well, especially when you consider your posts after that one seems to be arguing in favor that all GOP voters are indeed stupid.

and did you ever consider that maybe he knows someone who voted for GOP that is also intelligent? (very likely quite a few people).

You can argue the semantics, but if you have to bet your life on it, are you gonna go for all GOP voters are stupid or not all GOP voters are stupid?
As I say, I am not the one who proposed that voter intellect be used to justify GOP legitimacy.

If you want to say the GOP got millions of voters, that is true. But if you are going to say the GOP can't be wrong because the millions of voters can't be stupid, then you got another thing coming.

I did not want to go there. But I didn't throw the first stone.
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Old 2012-11-11, 15:21   Link #3115
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
That is so false it is not even funny. Since the USA is a superpower domestic policy do affects at the international level. The war on drugs is a clear example, affects the lives of millions of peoples outside the USA. There is also the crop subsides farmers receive, they also do affect economies all the world over. Immigration policy also affects lots of economies since the USA has a huge appetite for a low wage workforce which sends some of their income back home. The USA exerts force to make their laws the same laws in other nations.

In the end it is wishful thinking to say our interest is academic, we are interested since it does affect us and sometimes who becomes potus affects us more than the effect it has on some US citizens.

But this is not an anti-usa ramble, as china raises as an economic power I will probably start saying the same about them.
Fine, maybe Mexico has a more than academic interest in the difference between Romney and Obama.

Here, we don't produce a lot of drugs, we don't see the US as the promised land, and we've got our own farm subsidies.
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Old 2012-11-11, 15:27   Link #3116
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
As I say, I am not the one who proposed that voter intellect be used to justify GOP legitimacy.

If you want to say the GOP got millions of voters, that is true. But if you are going to say the GOP can't be wrong because the millions of voters can't be stupid, then you got another thing coming.

I did not want to go there. But I didn't throw the first stone.
Reading Ithekro's post again, I see no attempts at "justifying GOP legitimacy" through voter intellect, or "GOP can't be wrong" anywhere. He pointed out that a substantial number of people voted for GOP, and not all are for silly reasons. It's common sense really, and perhaps the "they can't all be stupid" rubbed you the wrong way, but that doesn't change the validity of his remarks.

As far as I can see, you took his post one way, and ran all the way to the extreme with it. Debating the specific policies is great and is what most of us are here in this thread for, sweeping generalization of half of the US population is not how you do it.
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Old 2012-11-11, 15:28   Link #3117
Ithekro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
As I say, I am not the one who proposed that voter intellect be used to justify GOP legitimacy.

If you want to say the GOP got millions of voters, that is true. But if you are going to say the GOP can't be wrong because the millions of voters can't be stupid, then you got another thing coming.

I did not want to go there. But I didn't throw the first stone.
I said "they can't all be stupid". Meaning that at least some of them must have a intelligent and logical reason for voting they way they did. The alternative of having them all be stupid would seem to be unacceptible in context of voting for the President of the United States of America.

Mind you it also mean that some must also be stupid, as if not all are stupid, some therefore must be stupid. We have seen some of them because they tend to make the news. Those that are not as stupid tend to not be news worthy (as crazy sells air time).

The old "silent majority" from the late 60s and early 70s may not be a majority anymore...but they still exist.

Basically, if the idea is that the Republican Party needs to die off, than you still have to convince those 58 million people to vote for something else. Or at least a large potion of them to vote for an alternative and let the hard liners continue to vote Republican as it becomes the third party of "them crazy Bible thumpers" or something.
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2012-11-11 at 15:48.
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Old 2012-11-11, 16:08   Link #3118
mangamuscle
formerly ogon bat
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Fine, maybe Mexico has a more than academic interest in the difference between Romney and Obama.

Here, we are the worlds #1 consumer of illegal drugs, we pay below minimal wage to immigrants and we do not subsidize farms in Mexico.
You are fooling yourself if into believing that what I said before only applies to Mexico.Saying "Ok, canadians too" will not cut it either.
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Old 2012-11-11, 16:25   Link #3119
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Our drugs don't transit by the US, neither do our immigrants, and we don't give a good goddamn about Mexican farms. Why should we?

The bottom line is while the US' foreign policy (and I count its stances on international trade and finance in that) does matter to us, the impact of what they do within their borders is much more marginal unless we're executives in a big multinational company, which is a tiny fraction of our population.

Once in a while, the US leaves a big mark on the world economy. Like in the 2008 subprime crisis. But for matters like that... are we really supposed to care who's in the White House?
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Old 2012-11-11, 16:42   Link #3120
mangamuscle
formerly ogon bat
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Our drugs don't transit by the US,
Are you seriously implying that illegal drugs travel up to the USA border and then somehow teleport into the USA potheads hands?

Quote:
neither do our immigrants,
Sorry, your statement makes no sense.

Quote:
and we don't give a good goddamn about Mexican farms. Why should we?
You shouldn't, I was merely answering an irrelevant comment with another (so the USA has farm subsidies, Mexico also has farm subsidies, what is that relevant to the current discussion I have no idea).

Quote:
The bottom line is while the US' foreign policy (and I count its stances on international trade and finance in that) does matter to us, the impact of what they do within their borders is much more marginal unless we're executives in a big multinational company, which is a tiny fraction of our population.
Reread my post, I am not talking about foreign USA policy, I clearly state that interior USA policy affects the world whether we like it or not.

Quote:
Once in a while, the US leaves a big mark on the world economy. Like in the 2008 subprime crisis.
Once in a while? O_o Every single day the USA makes a mark in the world economy, if somehow the whole country disappeared the effects would be felt immediately around the world..

Quote:
But for matters like that... are we really supposed to care who's in the White House?
There are plenty of people outside the USA who do not care who is elected potus, but that does not change the fact that it will affect their lives (or better or worst) the next four years.
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