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Old 2012-11-13, 07:26   Link #441
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
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Anyway, I apologize if some of the things I said sound a little extreme. I'm not taking it back. You could say I'm a bit of a justice maniac and can't stand it when people for whatever reason treat others unfairly. Which, I hope, most people will consider a thing that actually happened here.

Not understanding the cultural difference here probably helps. In the west, guys are usually are found guilty if a girl so much as implies the possibility of rape, and no defense will be able to help them. At least, that's an impression I get from the world around me.
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Old 2012-11-13, 08:12   Link #442
larethian
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^ I think you just have difficulty with empathizing with the psychology state of people in situations you've never experienced yourself. That's why I don't bother debating with you on this anymore. Since you'll never get it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not throwing a personal attack against you (I have friends like this too); just saying that you belong to a minority portion of the world population. That's why most of us can't see eye to eye with you. We should really forget about this and move on.
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Old 2012-11-13, 10:18   Link #443
Om Nerabdator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larethian View Post
^ I think you just have difficulty with empathizing with the psychology state of people in situations you've never experienced yourself. That's why I don't bother debating with you on this anymore. Since you'll never get it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not throwing a personal attack against you (I have friends like this too); just saying that you belong to a minority portion of the world population. That's why most of us can't see eye to eye with you. We should really forget about this and move on.
i doubt his the minority here mate just because your opinion is different then his you shouldnt just assume everyone else agrees with you.
if you asked anyone who a rape victim should direct the hatred at either the rapist or the person they begged to introduce them it would be quite clear, and for the others plz dont bring out another scientific survey or what not that they do for everything these days, i remember seeing a report of why an apple a day is bad for your teeth...its a damn joke
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Old 2012-11-13, 10:41   Link #444
klare
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a nicely done episode, not too fast or slow, get to see a new bim too

btw are there cameras on top of the trees? how do they monitor the games from far...
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Old 2012-11-13, 11:24   Link #445
larethian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Om Nerabdator View Post
i doubt his the minority here mate just because your opinion is different then his you shouldnt just assume everyone else agrees with you.
if you asked anyone who a rape victim should direct the hatred at either the rapist or the person they begged to introduce them it would be quite clear, and for the others plz dont bring out another scientific survey or what not that they do for everything these days, i remember seeing a report of why an apple a day is bad for your teeth...its a damn joke
Am I talking about majority vs minority in terms of differing opinions on who's right or who's wrong? It seems like you missed my point.
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Old 2012-11-13, 13:15   Link #446
Om Nerabdator
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Originally Posted by larethian View Post
Am I talking about majority vs minority in terms of differing opinions on who's right or who's wrong? It seems like you missed my point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by larethian View Post
; just saying that you belong to a minority portion of the world population. That's why most of us can't see eye to eye with you.
no but it seems like you missed mine :P
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Old 2012-11-13, 16:41   Link #447
Dengar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larethian View Post
^ I think you just have difficulty with empathizing with the psychology state of people in situations you've never experienced yourself. That's why I don't bother debating with you on this anymore. Since you'll never get it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not throwing a personal attack against you (I have friends like this too); just saying that you belong to a minority portion of the world population. That's why most of us can't see eye to eye with you. We should really forget about this and move on.
No offense taken. I'm usually quite good at empathizing with people though. Seeing things from their point of view. Except... Their point of view warps reality in a way that it isn't reality anymore. Plus you know, betrayal.
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Old 2012-11-13, 20:18   Link #448
orion
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Why on Earth would Himiko be more deserving of hatred than the rapists?
How do you know that they didn't write one for the band members too? The story is focusing on Himiko and not the collateral stuff.

It's not misdirected for them to include Himiko in that wish imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post

Not understanding the cultural difference here probably helps. In the west, guys are usually are found guilty if a girl so much as implies the possibility of rape, and no defense will be able to help them. At least, that's an impression I get from the world around me.
But that took a long time of people fighting for women's rights here for that to happen. Before that, it was the woman's fault.
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Old 2012-11-13, 20:57   Link #449
Znail
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It's not misdirected for them to include Himiko in that wish imo.
But what is the exact bad thing she did that makes her deserve that according to you?

It's one thing to be understanding about the confusion of the girls and their need to lash out, but another to claim the Himiko somehow deserve her fate.
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Old 2012-11-13, 21:04   Link #450
Dauerlutscher
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She run away and did not call for help?
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Old 2012-11-13, 21:57   Link #451
Znail
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Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher View Post
She run away and did not call for help?
That is just a suspicion without any actual grounds.

I mean something we actualy saw her do, not something you think she may have done.
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Old 2012-11-13, 22:02   Link #452
Dauerlutscher
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Originally Posted by Znail View Post
That is just a suspicion without any actual grounds.

I mean something we actualy saw her do, not something you think she may have done.
I know. And i don't even think that way. I was also one of those people whe could not understand how orion can blame her for all that and think what those girls did to her is justified and acceptable.
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Old 2012-11-13, 22:43   Link #453
orion
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You guys are just going around in circles about this. Moving on is prob a good thing for this thread imo.
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Old 2012-11-14, 00:33   Link #454
Znail
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
You guys are just going around in circles about this. Moving on is prob a good thing for this thread imo.
Well, it's mostly a matter of clearing some things up. It's rather difficult to discuss the morals of a persons actions when there is disagreement about what they have actually done. I understand that you have a firm belief that Himiko didn't call the police after running away.

But the question is if that is why you think she deservs her fate or if you think she does so even if she called the police?
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Old 2012-11-14, 02:16   Link #455
GoldenLand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
How do you know that they didn't write one for the band members too? The story is focusing on Himiko and not the collateral stuff.

It's not misdirected for them to include Himiko in that wish imo.
If they wrote one for the band members, then wouldn't the band members be on the island too? I'm not aware of any further selection criteria. If it's a spoiler and they are on the island, I suppose you probably shouldn't say so, though.

In any case, what you seem to be saying is that Himiko is at least as deserving of blame as the rapists. Which is very strange indeed. And having said something like that, I think you ought to give a straight answer.

How is it not misdirected for her friends to blame her? I can see how they would get bitter and twisted and come to that conclusion, but I don't see why you would agree with them that it was correct to do so. The problem Miho and the others faced was the rape, for which the rapists are directly to blame. Himiko didn't rape those girls, didn't know the band were dangerous, and narrowly escaped being raped herself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Not understanding the cultural difference here probably helps. In the west, guys are usually are found guilty if a girl so much as implies the possibility of rape, and no defense will be able to help them. At least, that's an impression I get from the world around me.
Unfortunately, the situation is not as good as you think - at least not in the Western countries I'm most familiar with. Most rapes aren't reported, and out of the ones which are, the vast majority don't end in convictions or even go to trial. I know people have been criticising the Japanese system, but it's not as if many other countries are that far up on the high ground themselves. Rape cases are difficult, partly because sometimes there will be no evidence other than the words of the victim and the accused.

It depends a bit on where you are, mind. Adversarial legal systems are inferior to inquisitorial legal systems when it comes to rape trials, because in inquisitorial systems, the focus is on finding out the truth rather than pitting the prosecution and the defence against each other. Adversarial systems can all too quickly descend into effectively putting the victim on trial. That's why some countries with adversarial legal systems are/have been considering putting in place specific inquisitorial systems just for rape trials.

Last edited by GoldenLand; 2012-11-14 at 03:30. Reason: grammar
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Old 2012-11-14, 06:32   Link #456
Dengar
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I agree with Znail, I do believe we've almost heard what everyone has to say. I know for one that -I- don't feel like I've anything left to add. Lets view it as tying up some loose ends.
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Old 2012-11-14, 10:09   Link #457
orion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
How is it not misdirected for her friends to blame her? I can see how they would get bitter and twisted and come to that conclusion, but I don't see why you would agree with them that it was correct to do so. The problem Miho and the others faced was the rape, for which the rapists are directly to blame. Himiko didn't rape those girls, didn't know the band were dangerous, and narrowly escaped being raped herself.
Okay, just this once.

She knew at least one of those guys. That was one of the reasons the girls got to the party in the first place. So it was suppose to be safe. Not a party in which the girls get beat up, drugged and filmed being raped. And...Himiko was the armed one so if she was there then they could have thought they would not have gotten raped. Lives were ruined over a party. We don't even know how the parents faired at work over this. (We won't ever because we don't live in Japan.) A lot of anger is going to be directed to the other person who got them into this mess which is Himiko.

You guys really need to let go and move on.
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Last edited by orion; 2012-11-14 at 10:21.
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Old 2012-11-14, 17:46   Link #458
Dengar
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Is that the reason why YOU think Himiko deserved what she got? Because you left out some things.

-just making sure I'm reading you as you intended-
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Old 2012-11-14, 20:52   Link #459
Dauerlutscher
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And that is the thing I don't get. When he says that it's not misdirected for them to include Himiko in that wish, he gives the impression that it he really believes what they did is right and that Himiko deserved that.
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Old 2012-11-14, 21:04   Link #460
bdragonomega
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Spoiler box for those who want to skip the current discussion about himiko/the girls.

Spoiler for Discussion:


In the latest episode, that line about "how when I was playing the game, x, but now my life is on the line" reminded me of SAO haha.
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