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Old 2012-09-09, 18:40   Link #7861
DonQuigleone
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Lately I've been playing 2v2 with a friend; me as zerg, him as terran.

We already have a decent opening with Hellions/Zergling rush, but we don't really know what to build in mid and late game, as unit combos.

Any ideas what Terran and Zerg units work well together, and cover each other's weaknesses?
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Old 2012-09-09, 18:45   Link #7862
Archon_Wing
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When I was still playing it'd be Mutalisks, and later Brood Lords with your average terran army of bio and some tanks. Add in some infestors for stupidity. Brood Lords are retardedly OP so any thing terran has that can shoot down air units and provide a meatshield is fine (ie viking/tank)

There is no way both players can defend both their mineral lines from mutas and launch a proper offense against you.

Also, from what I've noted, queens got +2 range in the past year, so they are like no early timing window weakness that Terran can use against Zerg? How do you beat that? Why was I stupid enough to main Terran anyways?

Just a small note:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Except we're talking about Starcraft 2 which has different mechanics from Brood War (Notably the armor types which significantly reduces the Goliath's effectiveness against mutas).

Goliaths were also suppose to combat heavy air units anyways and the Viking supports that role.
Goliaths also suffered an attack penalty in BW vs mutalisks (only 50%), and actually weren't particularly cost effective against mutas once numbers got big enough and the gluve wurm hit everywhere. However, they are niche in deterring early mutalisk harass due to them being a bit durable for their cost. You can't pick off goliaths in BW as easily as you can marines. Compare this to the thor which can drag its sorry ass to the mineral line AFTER mining's been halted for a few years so you can cry over throwing away early game resources (which are more valuable) on a factory (with armory) that could have been more useful doing, oh I don't know, floating in the corner on the map so your enemy wastes 5 more minutes trying to eliminate you from the game after the Zerg laughs their off pissing over your base with fungal growths (Has this changed yet?)

In addition, BW's missile turrets were incredibly cheap. They died fast but bought excellent amounts of time.

The viking doesn't really provide this, since it's expensive and you simply can't get enough out to do anything meaningful against an earlier mutalisk harass.

Sometimes it's very situational. En masse, goliaths weren't very hot, but a player that knew to build just the right amount benefited greatly. As an added bonus, mech play in sc1 shat on lurkers and quick hive which were popular to cheese a win out of you.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2012-09-09 at 20:03.
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Old 2012-09-10, 07:33   Link #7863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
When I was still playing it'd be Mutalisks, and later Brood Lords with your average terran army of bio and some tanks. Add in some infestors for stupidity. Brood Lords are retardedly OP so any thing terran has that can shoot down air units and provide a meatshield is fine (ie viking/tank)

There is no way both players can defend both their mineral lines from mutas and launch a proper offense against you.

Also, from what I've noted, queens got +2 range in the past year, so they are like no early timing window weakness that Terran can use against Zerg? How do you beat that? Why was I stupid enough to main Terran anyways?
If the Zerg takes a stupidly early third base before speed, Terran can use a 4rax Combat Shield timing to pressure and punish the third while taking gas and his own third.
Banshees and Hellions used at the same time is the most common tactic nowadays, especially since Zergs no longer wall off their natural since they think their 6 queens will protect them.
Another common tactic is a quick 3CC, but you have to watch the gas timing for the Zerg so you can prepare your defenses accordingly.

And then there's always 11/11 proxy rax.
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Old 2012-09-10, 09:54   Link #7864
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Goliaths also suffered an attack penalty in BW vs mutalisks (only 50%), and actually weren't particularly cost effective against mutas once numbers got big enough and the gluve wurm hit everywhere.
They might not be that good defensively, but if you are Boxer you could micro the Goliaths against Mutalisks by retreating a step after every shot. The slight range advantage means you can take on Mutalisks reasonably well if you have room to back off. Not that useful against harassment of course.
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Old 2012-09-10, 14:20   Link #7865
Archon_Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
They might not be that good defensively, but if you are Boxer you could micro the Goliaths against Mutalisks by retreating a step after every shot. The slight range advantage means you can take on Mutalisks reasonably well if you have room to back off. Not that useful against harassment of course.
Being Boxer is a high requirement =p

They're still good against mass mutalisks but usually not the best choice when numbers are large. Goliaths have trouble with rugged terran, and large numbers of marines/medics start to overpower mutalisks just due to their dps and can run faster. Marines also outrange mutas so you can't snipe large blobs of them.

It's also significantly harder to repair goliaths than to heal marines so in large engagements they start to lack durability. Massing goliaths out of factories as opposed to mm or the zerg with mutalisks and whatever they feel like making is expensive too. It doesn't mean that you can't kill a zerg with a goliath heavy army, but that is also very situational

The real answer is that you can more cost effectively destroy mass mutas with a few science vessels and irradiate.

Still my point is more about timing. It doesn't matter who can win in a straight up fight if you can't build them fast enough when the enemy comes. Goliaths were fairly accessible and not too expensive so you could try them as a deterrent; thors and vikings are generally a significant investment that just come too late.

Though you do bring up a point that micro made a huge difference in BW. Indeed, a lot of counters in BW were soft counters, so not every match up went by the rock papers scissors. The whole lurker vs infantry, muta vs infantry, storm vs anything, scourge vs muta, or corsairs vs muta micro show is one of the bigger displays of this. Sc2 counterparts are like thor vs muta and marines vs banelings. It seemed like the BW pros had a knack for making impossible things happen, and constantly changed what we thought was the proper way to play.

"There's no way you can engage MM directly with mutas"
"You have to 2 gate vs zerg"
"Fast expanding in TvZ is suicide"
"Get a hive in 9 minutes against Terran? Noob!"
"Carriers and corsairs against zerg? The fuck you smoking?"
"Only a noob would rush to arbiters"

Will SC2 ever have something like this 10 years from now? Hopefully. Well, I think Blizzard just needs to soften up on the nerf bat a bit more. (Keep in mind after 2001, there were no more balance changes-- people said that it took years and years to balance BW are full of shit)



As a side note, are the pro games being held on battle.net? There's more latency that way.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2012-09-10 at 16:36.
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Old 2012-09-16, 14:39   Link #7866
LoweGear
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Battle.net: Thoughts on Balance Update #2

Heheheh Blizzard, just admit that you'll never be able to remove the Carrier from the game. Hoping it stays that way till HoTS launch.
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Old 2012-09-17, 02:46   Link #7867
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Old 2012-09-17, 03:13   Link #7868
paladinenvec
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Battle.net: Thoughts on Balance Update #2

Heheheh Blizzard, just admit that you'll never be able to remove the Carrier from the game. Hoping it stays that way till HoTS launch.
The mine still sucks... =(
BTW i saw WCS this weekend ...Lucifron vs Stephano and Vortix vs Stephano were one of the most epic and tense games that i have seen in SC2 for a while... seriously Lucifron killed about 100 drones and Stephano still won (well he really made some awful mistakes to made him come back) btw i forgot when was the last time that a SC2 Tournament had nearly 100k viewers
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Old 2012-11-13, 10:34   Link #7869
Wigwams
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march 12, 2013 guys.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/783...IVE-11_13_2012
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Old 2012-11-13, 11:30   Link #7870
LoweGear
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At least I now know where my Christmas money's going....
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Old 2012-11-13, 17:58   Link #7871
Kyuu
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I waited a full year after SC2. I can wait longer on this one too.
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Old 2012-11-13, 22:11   Link #7872
Hooves
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My friend looked the date up for me at school today. Definitely looking forward to it! Now I just need to remember my Starcraft 2 account.
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Old 2012-11-13, 22:42   Link #7873
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Yeah, haven't touched the game in years...
Might buy the new one when it is discounted.
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Old 2012-11-14, 00:17   Link #7874
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Guess I'll have to get it... eventually.

Played my first Collegiate Starleague match yesterday. Won my match, but unfortunately, we lost the series because the other team had some really clutch scouting in the ace match.
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Old 2012-11-30, 21:03   Link #7875
Jaden
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Code S semifinals in Las Vegas right now. Stream at:

http://www.twitch.tv/ignproleague
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Old 2012-12-01, 00:32   Link #7876
Kyuu
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Code S semifinals in Las Vegas right now. Stream at:

http://www.twitch.tv/ignproleague
Aww, damn. Missed it -- only to catch the end of Ryung losing.
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Old 2012-12-01, 01:42   Link #7877
Newprimus
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I took advantage of the black friday sale and finally bought SC2. $20 is even cheaper than how much you'd find it for on ebay. I'm now officially part of the crowd! (and filling Blizzard's pockets more than I should after my Diablo 3 collector's edition pre-order purchase)

Finishing the campaign now, but I'll likely play toss in multi, since I've played toss in SC1 and BW.
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Old 2012-12-01, 02:48   Link #7878
paladinenvec
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The result was as i expected... zvz finals will not be fun at all, except for the moment when bot armies fight with their respective broodlord infestor armies (too many "free units")
The best part was : MBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA .
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Old 2012-12-01, 12:03   Link #7879
SoldierOfDarkness
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According to Blizzard all is well apparently.

I swear it's like they're living in their own little world. If a single Terran wins any tournamen they'll nerf whatever was involved in allowing that.

At the moment Terran T3 still sucks in general and are forced for bio.

Quote:
Yeah, haven't touched the game in years...
Might buy the new one when it is discounted.
I talked to a friend about this the other day and the thing is is you need to keep practicing your skills in order to keep up with the other players.

Aside from having a life which most of us do the problem I find with Starcraft is that it's more of a micro fest. It's less about strategies and more about who has the faster APM and such. So if you want to keep up you have to keep "practicing".

I mean heck Reckoner and Hooves here gave me some coaching tips awhile back but there's only so much time you can spare on it.
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Old 2012-12-01, 20:14   Link #7880
Pocari_Sweat
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SC2 is in decline everywhere and in Korea, whilst League of Legends has exploded and is the new new e-sport king. 25% of the population plays it afterall, which SC2 is not even remotely close to.

The thing with SC2 is not only is it extremely slow in balance changes (Riot Games with LoL on the other hand are making too many changes per patch ), it's also not very easy on casual players nor is it very fun to watch these days where the metagame is turtle up to 3+ bases and then have one big battle that decides the match instead of multiple small skirmishes at different places on the map like Brood War was. The main culprit is the Zerg Broodlord + Infestor composition which encourages turtle play. Just look at PvZ... it's decided by some lame 2 base immortal + sentry all-in or Brood Lord + Infestor vs Mothership Vortex and the game is won or lost by a single vortex. Not very interesting from a spectator point of view.
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