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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 19
10 out of 10 : Nearly Perfect... 30 28.30%
9 out of 10 : Excellent... 37 34.91%
8 out of 10 : Very Good... 21 19.81%
7 out of 10 : Good... 8 7.55%
6 out of 10 : Average... 6 5.66%
5 out of 10 : Below Average... 1 0.94%
4 out of 10 : Poor... 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad... 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad... 1 0.94%
1 out of 10 : Torturous... 2 1.89%
Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-11-13, 11:20   Link #241
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeriand View Post
Sugou is literally maintaining her life since she's one of the researchers taking medical care of Asuna. Yes, the connection is hinted. Yes, it's a possibility. But no. Hard. Evidence. Else he would've punched the shit out of Sugou already right there and then.
And again the lack of hard evidence isn't absolutely not a problem for him, otherwise he wouldn't set himself in such task, and the story clearly indicates he is certain he will find her in ALO (otherwise his reaction towards Leefa wouldn't make sense). Also, he learned the RCT connection after meeting Sugou, and punching him wouldn't lead to anywhere.
Quote:
You know that Asuna STILL can meet Yui suppose that she's not in ALO, as long as she wakes up from her death slumber right?
Please remember that he uses the word "すぐに" and not "いつか/そのうちに" when he states Yui's dream will come true, which is a "soon" with a "immediately" connotation, compared to the other words he used. It isn't in a vague time frame in the future, but really almost the very moment he is speaking.
Before ALO comes into the plotline, Kazuto had absolutely no idea why Asuna isn't waking up nor when she will. And now, he is certain this will happen soon enough, and not in a distant future. That pretty much implies he is absolutely sure he will find her in ALO.
Quote:
He rushed a distance that is impossible for most people on their journey to the World Tree. And you're talking about him wasting time.
...
He is indulging himself in the game. Why wouldn't he? Why shouldn't he? Is there any reason he shouldn't at least enjoy himself? He has always been the type to enjoy the world as much as he can within limits, even with his own life at stake. He TAUGHT that to the stiff Asuna and changed her. Why did you expect him NOT to enjoy himself?
This is because, once again, it deals with a very weird contradiction in term of mood regarding his goal: Kazuto in real life was quite affected by Asuna's slumber, then inability to reach her, then goes all out to have any single lead.
His behaviour before engaging himself in ALO is quite clear that he wasn't playing it for the hell of it. Really, Kazuto was hell bent to be on Asuna's side, and got utterly crushed for that, and then when he is in a game, he barely have any thought for that (not any depression, but at least some concern or determination to push forward).
Quote:
This doesn't mean he can't leave after confronting the conflict.
The problem is: -how long- will it last? How far the detour it will take? How difficult it will be? And again, Leefa stated a very important problem: should he dies, Kirito will be back to square one.
Quote:
Yeah, at stake in another 5 days, while a good friend's matter is within 45 minutes. I seriously don't understand why you're not understanding.
Here is the catch: the issue Leefa is encountering has, practically, no importance save commitment as a player, which is a far cry for what's going on on Asuna's side. Sure, Kazuto doesn't know Asuna is in danger of being brainwashed (assuming Sugou's claim is true, that is), but his priority was always clear the very moment he engaged himself with Asuna. Heck, in SAO, he clearly state that should Asuna's security is at stake, he would -abandon- the party and prioritize her safety, even though the said party was at risk of dying for real. And you kept repeating the coma death, which is actually another reason why he wouldn't leave her in a comatose state for long, especially he got quite shocked after Asuna's explanations about that.
Simply put, Kazuto already got a big hunch that Sugou did something weird, that there is a marriage within 5 days, and that she is still in a damn coma.
All of these parts offset completely Leefa's issue.

I don't expect Kazuto to outright abandon Leefa whatsoever, but I would expect him to really not commit himself in that "event" despite he has a much more pressing matter (whether or not doing so will benefit him in the rescue is not relevant to the intent and mindset as of now, as the anime didn't reflect any calculation/intention for him to use the alliance for his benefit).
He obviously consider Leefa as his friend due to her help and support so far, but that doesn't make her magically important enough to focus on her problem, even if it is for a short period of time.

So really, it is how carefree he is presented so far as ALO Kirito, that's all. If you think he can simply enjoy himself and putting Asuna on the sidelines for this, be my guest. As far as I'm concerned, I exposed the points why I'm not happy about how he is acting in ALO arc. If you can't even understand, better stick on "agree to disagree", because at this point, it is just meaningless to go on circle.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-11-13 at 11:48.
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Old 2012-11-13, 11:47   Link #242
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I don't expect Kazuto to outright abandon Leefa whatsoever, but I would expect him to really not commit himself in that "event" despite he has a much more pressing matter.
He obviously consider Leefa as his friend due to her help and support so far, but that doesn't make her magically important enough to focus on her problem, even if it is for a short period of time.

So really, it is how carefree he is presented so far as ALO Kirito, that's all. If you think he can simply enjoy himself and putting Asuna on the sidelines for this, be my guest. As far as I'm concerned, I exposed the points why I'm not happy about how he is acting in ALO arc.
In the end, I guess all I can say is that I guess the show should have made the connection between the events more clear so we'd understand more obviously what Kirito is thinking. (This is the same as with Kirito's lack of communication re: his attack plan in this episode, and also a bit reminiscent of his actions in Silica's episode, perhaps.) I mean, it's obvious to me in the audience that the things he's doing with Leefa are important to the on-going plot, because otherwise they wouldn't even include them. It makes sense to me why he could reason that helping resolve this guild crisis will directly help him in his all-important quest to get to the top of the world tree and find Asuna. But the perspective we're seeing of Kirito in these episode is mostly from Leefa's point of view, and she's interpreting everything he does from a "he cares about me!" perspective. The ultimate truth of it is that, while he's not the type of person to abandon a friend in need, he still wouldn't do anything that would pose any significant risk to his only true goal.

In the end, if we want to point at the "flaw", it's that the story isn't adequately portraying Kirito's sense of urgency. I guess there are two ways to interpret this: either a) he really has gotten side-tracked into enjoying the game, or b) he's actually thinking of Asuna the whole time, but just not showing it. If it's the former, then perhaps what he needs is some sort of a sign to suggest that there's light at the end of the tunnel, and that Asuna really will be there at the top of that tree. If it's the latter, then the main issue is that we just don't understand what he's thinking due to the way he's being portrayed.
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Old 2012-11-13, 11:54   Link #243
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Agreed, unless the author really pulled an irrelevant subplot that would not have any impact to what Kazuto's objective, it is obvious from a narrative perspective it will have a benefit (otherwise it would be a filler with a severe bad writing degree), but from a character perspective, he is just doing the nice guy, with his objective steadely occulted by the flow of events right now.

From there on, the presentation alone is the problem, while ALO Kirito is no different than SAO Kirito to put it bluntly, so the actions taken are well within his personality. It is just not reflecting the appropriate mindset and goal so far, but I guess that will be fixed the moment he finds another clue or witness Asuna's cage himself.
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Old 2012-11-13, 12:08   Link #244
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
From there on, the presentation alone is the problem, while ALO Kirito is no different than SAO Kirito to put it bluntly, so the actions taken are well within his personality. It is just not reflecting the appropriate mindset and goal so far, but I guess that will be fixed the moment he finds another clue or witness Asuna's cage himself.
Yes, I think so. Now that I think about it some more, there is actually an entire interesting narrative that could be written if we assume that Kirito really has gotten sidetracked here: That perhaps he started doubting if photo was even real, and enjoying a video game for the first time in years caused him to start to lose sight of what was really important. (Not necessarily that he forgot about Asuna, but a part of him had already given up.) If this is the case, that's actually some interesting character development for Kirito and ties in well to "helplessness" he felt in the real world. But, if that's where they're going with this, then of course they have to show it. Right now, it's sort of a question mark.
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Old 2012-11-13, 12:17   Link #245
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Hm, I personally don't have any problem with the way Kirito's been portrayed this arc. He's been rather nonchalant and carefree in his demeanor, but he's still not wasting much time in his pursuit of Asuna. If I remember right, Kirito didn't seem particularly anxious even when Black Bartender Guy first told him about Alfheim Online and about Asuna's supposed capture; he might even simply be excited at the prospect of reuniting with Asuna, or unable to feel much trepidation regarding her safety because the stakes are so much lower than they ever were in Sword Art Online.
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Old 2012-11-13, 12:21   Link #246
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Don't forget, that because of ALO's slow pace in general, and the fact that we have to wait a week between episodes, Kirito's "Sidetrip shenanigans" are magnified by that perspective. Watching it all in one sitting they might just blaze on by and be barely noticeable.

But whether it's true or not, I always like to pretend there's something more going on we can't see. XD. Whether Kirito is planning everything in secret, or he has allowed himself to get lost in the splendor of the game, both make for interesting stories. Lets hope we get to see more of it in the future.
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Old 2012-11-13, 12:37   Link #247
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Before ALO comes into the plotline, Kazuto had absolutely no idea why Asuna isn't waking up nor when she will. And now, he is certain this will happen soon enough, and not in a distant future. That pretty much implies he is absolutely sure he will find her in ALO.
Wrong. Now I truly see exactly what's the problem. Kirito believes that ALO is the first strong lead he has since two months of awakening to save Asuna. However, he is NOT sure that Asuna is in ALO. This is very simple really, and is the main reason why you and I disagree so strongly about the 'urgency' issue.

So 1. Suppose that Kirito is absolutely sure that the girl in the cage is Asuna. Thus by logical thinking, he would have abandoned all unnecessary actions and rushed directly towards the World Tree as fast as possible. This is consistent with his personality and love towards Asuna. Thus it is very weird that he's teaming up with Leafa, not urging the journey towards the World Tree as fast as possible, and is enjoying life a little too well (I'm not even going to comment on this, because I'd probably explode at the thought that you expect him to be moody/serious forever, because it's obvious that you don't think his smiling face indicates a semblance of urgency).

But you are completely wrong at this. The anime clearly shows that Kirito DOESN'T KNOW whether Asuna is inside ALO. I repeat, he has a picture with a girl who looks like Asuna in a VR game called ALO. Sugou, the fiance of Asuna, happens to be one of the VR company's affiliates and whose interest is to keep Asuna sleeping forever. Hence, this is an incredibly strong lead and indicator that Asuna might very well be in ALO, but the possibility that this is just a false warning is there. The girl might very well not be Asuna.

You can have a 80% match of fingerprints and point that culprit A is the killer, but the chance that you missed out culprit B's 100% fingerprint match is there. You cannot deny it, and so does Kirito. Hence Kirito's lack of the 'super urgency omigosh Asuna is going to die in ten seconds' you expect. The urgency to confirm the lead is there, but the urgency to save Asuna from the world ALO is NOT there. And here lies the difference of opinion about 'urgency' between you and me. And the anime has already proven me right with its presented episodes of Kirito's behavior. Whether you want to change your belief that, 'Kirito is absolutely sure that Asuna is in ALO' is up to you.
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Old 2012-11-13, 12:53   Link #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craxuan View Post
So 1. Suppose that Kirito is absolutely sure that the girl in the cage is Asuna. Thus by logical thinking, he would have abandoned all unnecessary actions and rushed directly towards the World Tree as fast as possible. This is consistent with his personality and love towards Asuna. Thus it is very weird that he's teaming up with Leafa, not urging the journey towards the World Tree as fast as possible, and is enjoying life a little too well (I'm not even going to comment on this, because I'd probably explode at the thought that you expect him to be moody/serious forever, because it's obvious that you don't think his smiling face indicates a semblance of urgency).
You actually prove my point the sense of urgency is absolutely absent, and you actually contradict the fact: not only Kirito is certain she is there regarding how dead serious he was with Leefa once, and how he claims Yui will be reunited with her -very soon-, but joining ALO with a "slim probability" that it is Asuna shows how much he is clinging on this and is sure of that after connecting the dot with RCT. Otherwise, he wouldn't even join a game that already drained 2 days among the week he has before Sugou make his move.

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but the possibility that this is just a false warning is there. The girl might very well not be Asuna.
Please read again my posts before: I never stated he has absolute knowledge that it is 100% asuna from a factual perspective. What he has, however, is a very strong gut feeling that is proved several times before joining ALO. Again, pay attention to his reaction and -flashback- of Sugou and what he says to Yui. Kazuto is not the type of guy to say positive thing without anything backing up his thoughts. Really, his most marking word was the "すぐに".

Whether or not he want to rescue her or check her identity goes with the same point is that: he does not have time to do anything aside his real business.

Geez, it is again going in circle. If now points are now debated as "facts" in both sides, better drop the subject, it is just that tiring.
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Old 2012-11-13, 13:04   Link #249
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I proved that the lack of urgency to 'save Asuna from ALO' since long time ago, and I proved that there is the urgency for Kirito to 'confirm the lead that girl-in-bird-cage is Asuna'. Two different urgencies we have here.

I repeat, he felt that the lead he obtained will very well lead him to Asuna (you do know that using absolutely means 100% sure right?), and he rushes into ALO to confirm that fact. And since this turns the entire ALO adventure into 'investigation of a very strong lead to rescuing Asuna', he is very eager to get to the World Tree as soon as possible, but not so rushed that he couldn't accommodate a friend's request, or enjoy the thrill ALO provides him.

It would've been completely different if Sugou had stated flat out: I've trapped Asuna in the Virtual World called ALO. Watcha gonna do? If that had been the case, plus the photo he's obtained, then Kirito should definitely act like what you're currently expecting, because there is absolute certainty about Asuna's whereabouts. But ultimately that is NOT the case here, and this is clearly reflected from Kirito's behavior.
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Old 2012-11-13, 15:01   Link #250
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I proved that the lack of urgency to 'save Asuna from ALO' since long time ago, and I proved that there is the urgency for Kirito to 'confirm the lead that girl-in-bird-cage is Asuna'. Two different urgencies we have here.

I repeat, he felt that the lead he obtained will very well lead him to Asuna (you do know that using absolutely means 100% sure right?), and he rushes into ALO to confirm that fact. And since this turns the entire ALO adventure into 'investigation of a very strong lead to rescuing Asuna', he is very eager to get to the World Tree as soon as possible, but not so rushed that he couldn't accommodate a friend's request, or enjoy the thrill ALO provides him.

It would've been completely different if Sugou had stated flat out: I've trapped Asuna in the Virtual World called ALO. Watcha gonna do? If that had been the case, plus the photo he's obtained, then Kirito should definitely act like what you're currently expecting, because there is absolute certainty about Asuna's whereabouts. But ultimately that is NOT the case here, and this is clearly reflected from Kirito's behavior.
actually, doesn't your theory make it all the more important for Kirito to rush his current task?
1. all he wants to do is prove that Asuna is indeed trapped in ALO, he can come up with a plan to rescue her after he confirms his lead is in fact the truth
2. If this lead falls through, and he uses up his entire week investigating this, he's screwed. he really only has 2-3 days to investigate before he needs to decide whether to pursue the ALO thing further, or to search for other leads
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Old 2012-11-13, 15:15   Link #251
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I'll just give you a simple example here. It's up to you to interpret it as you wish.

1) My girlfriend is missing. I'm currently investigating a very important lead that might just be the jackpot. If I don't find her soon, she's going to lose her entire inheritance (due to some circumstances).

2) My girlfriend is in grave danger. She has fallen into the hands of an evil man, and her very life is under threat. I know where he is, and my girlfriend is most likely with him.

For me, 2) holds the greatest urgency, and I'd probably throw all notions of comfort and caution to the wind. There are two reasons: One, there is a direct threat towards my girlfriend's life at Situation 2, whereas Situation 1 only holds possible threats. Two, the whereabouts of my girlfriend are confirmed in Situation 2, whereas the most I could say for Situation 1 is 'highly possible'. Hence a person's state of mind changes accordingly to fit the circumstances, and while I have room to relax and rest in Situation 1, there is none at all in Situation 2.
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Old 2012-11-13, 15:48   Link #252
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For #2 above, though, Kirito has no idea that Sugou is holding Asuna captive. I mean, it's mind-bogglingly obvious, even if we weren't shown it, but as far as I can tell, his character has zero clue that Sugou is in the virtual world--only that he is threatening her in the physical world.
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Old 2012-11-13, 15:50   Link #253
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I'll just give you a simple example here. It's up to you to interpret it as you wish.

1) My girlfriend is missing. I'm currently investigating a very important lead that might just be the jackpot. If I don't find her soon, she's going to lose her entire inheritance (due to some circumstances).

2) My girlfriend is in grave danger. She has fallen into the hands of an evil man, and her very life is under threat. I know where he is, and my girlfriend is most likely with him.

For me, 2) holds the greatest urgency, and I'd probably throw all notions of comfort and caution to the wind. There are two reasons: One, there is a direct threat towards my girlfriend's life at Situation 2, whereas Situation 1 only holds possible threats. Two, the whereabouts of my girlfriend are confirmed in Situation 2, whereas the most I could say for Situation 1 is 'highly possible'. Hence a person's state of mind changes accordingly to fit the circumstances, and while I have room to relax and rest in Situation 1, there is none at all in Situation 2.
you can't even call Kirito's situation "Highly probably" all he got is a photo of a character in a game.
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Old 2012-11-13, 16:20   Link #254
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The problem I have with most posts is that people keep saying Kirito is side tracking, which he isn't. Preventing the Salamanders from killing the Sylph and Cait Sidhe leaders is the second fastest way to get up that tree.

The fastest way would be to actually let the Salamanders kill them and join their side. Do you want him to do that then?
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Old 2012-11-13, 16:38   Link #255
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That's exactly the question, would it get him up the tree just as fast? Assuming that's his number one goal, of course, the morally right thing to do aside. Perhaps his habits from SAO make him biased against that kind of non-cooperative underhanded approach that leads to more 'deaths' than the other way.
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Old 2012-11-13, 16:49   Link #256
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For #2 above, though, Kirito has no idea that Sugou is holding Asuna captive. I mean, it's mind-bogglingly obvious, even if we weren't shown it, but as far as I can tell, his character has zero clue that Sugou is in the virtual world--only that he is threatening her in the physical world.
Well, honestly, I'm not too sure if I myself would have guessed that Sugou would be harassing her in the virtual world, because what's the point? I think it's a bit of a leap for him to go: Sugou is rather creepy -> Sugou says you might say that he's keeping Asuna alive -> Asuna's likeness has possibly been seen locked in a cage at the top of ALO -> Sugou is actively harassing her in the game -> I can do something in the game to stop it. It's obvious to us partly because we know this show has to have a plot, and that plot has to resolve somehow... but I don't think it's actually so obvious in Kazuto's shoes.

I mean, frankly, I don't think I would guess that Sugou is so pathetically and obviously villainous.

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The problem I have with most posts is that people keep saying Kirito is side tracking, which he isn't. Preventing the Salamanders from killing the Sylph and Cait Sidhe leaders is the second fastest way to get up that tree.
It's fairly logical to assume that as anime viewers (because we can guess that nothing that happens is unintentional), but they never actually have Kirito say this, nor even hint at the logic that went into his decision. He doesn't really show it on his face either, and instead we only see him having fun in the game and getting closer to Leefa. They did hint previously that getting up the world tree may require cooperation between the races, but they haven't shown Kirito making the connection. Absent any further hints/insight, it can look like he's ignoring Asuna to take care of this "side-business", as if saying "well, Asuna can wait for a bit". That probably isn't actually what he's thinking, but that hasn't really been clearly conveyed so far. I think it will be made more clear going-forward.
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Old 2012-11-13, 17:42   Link #257
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The problem I have with most posts is that people keep saying Kirito is side tracking, which he isn't. Preventing the Salamanders from killing the Sylph and Cait Sidhe leaders is the second fastest way to get up that tree.

The fastest way would be to actually let the Salamanders kill them and join their side. Do you want him to do that then?
Why not let the Salamanders kill them when it is the fastest way? In the end it's just a game, they wont really die and he can rescue Asuna faster.

I have to agree with Klashikari. At the moment, Kirito gives the impression to prefer to play around instead on really trying to get to Asuna.
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Old 2012-11-13, 17:53   Link #258
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Why not let the Salamanders kill them when it is the fastest way? In the end it's just a game, they wont really die and he can rescue Asuna faster.

I have to agree with Klashikari. At the moment, Kirito gives the impression to prefer to play around instead on really trying to get to Asuna.
I think Kirito outlined his reasons for this pretty well in the episode itself.
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Old 2012-11-13, 17:54   Link #259
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Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher View Post
Why not let the Salamanders kill them when it is the fastest way? In the end it's just a game, they wont really die and he can rescue Asuna faster.

I have to agree with Klashikari. At the moment, Kirito gives the impression to prefer to play around instead on really trying to get to Asuna.
It may or may not be faster to help the salamanders out. Granted yes if they succeed and assassinate 2 Faction leaders they get 30% of each nation's treasury, plus added to their own, that's a lot of money. Probably more then enough to take on Yggdrasil.

But look at it this way. If Kirito successfully prevents the assassinations, he'd probably make friends with both nations. Both nations negotiate an alliance successfully, he now has the full backing of 2 nations. and if we throw in his own race, that's a LOT more helpful then just the salamanders with their bonuses.
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Old 2012-11-13, 18:21   Link #260
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I think Kirito outlined his reasons for this pretty well in the episode itself.
I think his reasons are dumb conisdering that it is just a game and that he has to rescue his wife.

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Originally Posted by Metaneo View Post
It may or may not be faster to help the salamanders out. Granted yes if they succeed and assassinate 2 Faction leaders they get 30% of each nation's treasury, plus added to their own, that's a lot of money. Probably more then enough to take on Yggdrasil.

But look at it this way. If Kirito successfully prevents the assassinations, he'd probably make friends with both nations. Both nations negotiate an alliance successfully, he now has the full backing of 2 nations. and if we throw in his own race, that's a LOT more helpful then just the salamanders with their bonuses.
From what in can see he has 2 options.
1. Work with the Salamanders and gain the chance to rescue Asuna faster.
2. Waste precious time with making friends and risk to lose Asuna in that way.

To me, option 2 sounds not so great compared to option 1.


relentlessflame said it richt.
Quote:
It's fairly logical to assume that as anime viewers (because we can guess that nothing that happens is unintentional), but they never actually have Kirito say this, nor even hint at the logic that went into his decision. He doesn't really show it on his face either, and instead we only see him having fun in the game and getting closer to Leefa. They did hint previously that getting up the world tree may require cooperation between the races, but they haven't shown Kirito making the connection. Absent any further hints/insight, it can look like he's ignoring Asuna to take care of this "side-business", as if saying "well, Asuna can wait for a bit". That probably isn't actually what he's thinking, but that hasn't really been clearly conveyed so far. I think it will be made more clear going-forward.
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