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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 19
10 out of 10 : Nearly Perfect... 30 28.30%
9 out of 10 : Excellent... 37 34.91%
8 out of 10 : Very Good... 21 19.81%
7 out of 10 : Good... 8 7.55%
6 out of 10 : Average... 6 5.66%
5 out of 10 : Below Average... 1 0.94%
4 out of 10 : Poor... 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad... 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad... 1 0.94%
1 out of 10 : Torturous... 2 1.89%
Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-11-13, 18:32   Link #261
Dengar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher View Post
I think his reasons are dumb conisdering that it is just a game and that he has to rescue his wife.



From what in can see he has 2 options.
1. Work with the Salamanders and gain the chance to rescue Asuna faster.
2. Waste precious time with making friends and risk to lose Asuna in that way.

To me, option 2 sounds not so great compared to option 1.


relentlessflame said it richt.

While at the same time betraying his friends and everything he stands for? That's not very Kirito.

Also, the point may not be just to unite the races, the point is that he needs help to get up that tree. It HAS been established that it's more complicated than walking up to the tree and climbing it. There's a whole lot of things he doesn't know yet. His gear is beginner level. He can't do it alone.
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Old 2012-11-13, 18:41   Link #262
Oroboro
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Kirito's philosophy is basically "Don't be an asshole, just because it's "Just a game" or "Just the internet" and you can get away with it. They're real people."

Which is perfectly reasonable and quite frankly could stand to be a lot more widespread.
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Old 2012-11-13, 19:09   Link #263
Newfan
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Originally Posted by Metaneo View Post
But look at it this way. If Kirito successfully prevents the assassinations, he'd probably make friends with both nations. Both nations negotiate an alliance successfully, he now has the full backing of 2 nations. and if we throw in his own race, that's a LOT more helpful then just the salamanders with their bonuses.
Don't forget his Salamander BFF he traded all the loot for information with.
That makes 4 races, my count is a total of 8 races, how he's going to manage to get their help too I don't know. Plus I'm really interested in what the other races special skill sets are... not the newb skills, but the tanks, Kiritokun esq type skills.

What exactly is Kiroto going to do when he confirms that is or isn't Asuna I wonder? Getting her to 'wake up' or log out from inside the game is most likely an impossibility. Going to the police with a 'hey my gf is stuck in a virtual reality game' will also probably not net too much results.

Yui is also starting to grow on me... its going to be sad when Kirito is done with ALO.

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-11-13 at 22:37. Reason: Please edit rather than double-posting
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Old 2012-11-13, 19:14   Link #264
Dauerlutscher
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
While at the same time betraying his friends and everything he stands for? That's not very Kirito.
He has by faaaar more important things to do than care about pointless game rules and fictional characters. It's just a game in anyway. It's just a game and rescuing his wife should be his absolut top priority

Quote:
Also, the point may not be just to unite the races, the point is that he needs help to get up that tree. It HAS been established that it's more complicated than walking up to the tree and climbing it. There's a whole lot of things he doesn't know yet. His gear is beginner level. He can't do it alone.
In the end i have just a problem with how the author is handling the sitation. He just failed to deliver what the main character if this story is thinking and what he is intentding to do.

Again, relentlessflames post in witch he reasonable explained what is wrong.
Quote:
It's fairly logical to assume that as anime viewers (because we can guess that nothing that happens is unintentional), but they never actually have Kirito say this, nor even hint at the logic that went into his decision. He doesn't really show it on his face either, and instead we only see him having fun in the game and getting closer to Leefa. They did hint previously that getting up the world tree may require cooperation between the races, but they haven't shown Kirito making the connection. Absent any further hints/insight, it can look like he's ignoring Asuna to take care of this "side-business", as if saying "well, Asuna can wait for a bit". That probably isn't actually what he's thinking, but that hasn't really been clearly conveyed so far. I think it will be made more clear going-forward.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
Kirito's philosophy is basically "Don't be an asshole, just because it's "Just a game" or "Just the internet" and you can get away with it. They're real people."

Which is perfectly reasonable and quite frankly could stand to be a lot more widespread.
Under normal circumstances I would agree with that.
But it is by no means reasonable to play to the rules of a game that has no consequences to the real life instead on doing everything possible to rescue your wife. If someone would do that in real life, I would seriously question what his priority is. Wife or game. What is more important.
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Old 2012-11-13, 19:42   Link #265
Oroboro
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It's not the game, it's a personal moral philosophy. It's about being able to look Asuna in the eyes when this is over, or at yourself in the mirror.

Maybe you'd find it more interesting if Kirito was the type of person who would stab his friends in the back (Or in the face in this case, since Lyfa so generously offered.) to get what he wanted, but he's clearly not, and that's not the direction the show is going.
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Old 2012-11-13, 20:17   Link #266
Dauerlutscher
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Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
It's not the game, it's a personal moral philosophy. It's about being able to look Asuna in the eyes when this is over, or at yourself in the mirror.

Maybe you'd find it more interesting if Kirito was the type of person who would stab his friends in the back (Or in the face in this case, since Lyfa so generously offered.) to get what he wanted, but he's clearly not, and that's not the direction the show is going.
As a matter of fact it is just a pointless game with absolutely no consequences to the real life.
So what is more important now? Stick to the rules of this pointless game or do everything possible to rescue your wife? The answer to that should be clear for everyone, at least i hope that.
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Old 2012-11-13, 20:20   Link #267
Bahamut
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...there is nothing wrong with Kirito's philosophy and morals...because this is who he is...but its just more odd that they want to emphasise these beliefs when ideally his love for Asuna should be as...if not more...important...

...the assumption is that Kirito believes Asuna is in ALO...because if she is not...then he is surely using a lot of time just for confirmation...imagine that it really is not her...remember that the so called wedding takes place in a week...

...if Kirito ends up taking even 4 days to reach the top but turns out it is not her then what? ...hes got 3 more days to pull a miracle...chances then he will surely break down...
...meeting deadlines gets deadlier when days becomes hours...minutes...seconds...

...besides that...since if this is all under Leafa's point of view hence no Kirito thoughts...then they should have made Leafa notice odd behaviours or expressions at least once per episode that will lead to her asking why he is so eagar to reach the top...who this person he is trying to save mean to him...and why is at times he is all jokes yet seems to be a forced smile...

...like that moment in the pub...it may be annoying to see this presented because it may show him as emo but in order to show his love/devotion for Asuna it needs to be fed to the audience...

...SAO arc emphasise that death in the game meant death in real life...and that was portrayed from time to time...so ALO should be about saving Asuna therefore it should be portrayed as well...

...unfortunately all we have is Leafa falling for Kirito thinking he is "her" knight in shining armour...and most of her shocked impressions are based on Kirito's beliefs that are not related to Asuna...perhaps this is Leafa's story and Kirito's story is the "side quest"...

Last edited by Bahamut; 2012-11-13 at 20:32. Reason: ...more useless comments...
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Old 2012-11-13, 21:25   Link #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher View Post
As a matter of fact it is just a pointless game with absolutely no consequences to the real life.
So what is more important now? Stick to the rules of this pointless game or do everything possible to rescue your wife? The answer to that should be clear for everyone, at least i hope that.
Kirito has come from a life and death situation game named "Sword Art Online". Losing a party member is like losing a friend to him after all that's happened. He's currently aware of Asuna's situation, his love for her in indeed unmatched. But that doesn't mean you should discard everything else, helping someone that's supported you even though you're another race.

Abandoning Leafa, and the Slyphs and joining up the Salamanders. That's like saying he should have joined the The Holy Dragon Alliance back in SAO to get all the good things. It's not Kirito at all, and as long as he can still save Asuna. He can side-track to help a friend that's currently in a desperate situation that's supported him all this time. Even offered to lead him to the World Tree, when he could have just gone alone.

Leafa didn't abandon him, and I'm sure Kirito wouldn't abandon Leafa in a time of crisis. While still trying to save Asuna. Kirito's speech to Leafa clearly states what happens to people emotionally/mentally who would take what you just suggested, even if it's a game. As what Kirito said does happen to people in real life, and in episode 4 of the first season as well. So if Kirito had to choose between the two. Then it would really hurt him deeply inside to pick one, so he chooses the third option which is "both" his friend and his love.
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Old 2012-11-13, 21:37   Link #269
Znail
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher View Post
As a matter of fact it is just a pointless game with absolutely no consequences to the real life.
So what is more important now? Stick to the rules of this pointless game or do everything possible to rescue your wife? The answer to that should be clear for everyone, at least i hope that.
The problem with discarding morals in the game to reach his goal is that is hardly the way to gain reliable allies. What if the Salamanders plan to assault the world tree in two weeks, what good would that do to Kirito?

If he actually makes some friends then they are far more likely to addapt their plans to what Kirito needs compared to him dealing with someone on a purely self-serving basis.
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Old 2012-11-13, 21:58   Link #270
Dauerlutscher
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Originally Posted by Hooves View Post
Kirito has come from a life and death situation game named "Sword Art Online". Losing a party member is like losing a friend to him after all that's happened. He's currently aware of Asuna's situation, his love for her in indeed unmatched. But that doesn't mean you should discard everything else, helping someone that's supported you even though you're another race.

Abandoning Leafa, and the Slyphs and joining up the Salamanders. That's like saying he should have joined the The Holy Dragon Alliance back in SAO to get all the good things. It's not Kirito at all, and as long as he can still save Asuna. He can side-track to help a friend that's currently in a desperate situation that's supported him all this time. Even offered to lead him to the World Tree, when he could have just gone alone.

Leafa didn't abandon him, and I'm sure Kirito wouldn't abandon Leafa in a time of crisis. While still trying to save Asuna. Kirito's speech to Leafa clearly states what happens to people emotionally/mentally who would take what you just suggested, even if it's a game. As what Kirito said does happen to people in real life, and in episode 4 of the first season as well. So if Kirito had to choose between the two. Then it would really hurt him deeply inside to pick one, so he chooses the third option which is "both" his friend and his love.
SAO:
When people die ingame, they also die in rea life. Consequences to rea life.
ALO:
People die ingame. Who cares? It's just a game, nothing really happened and real life can go on. 0 Consequences to rea life.

The point that i'm trying to make and that some people don't seem to get is that ALO is just a game. And i don't get how someone can take a game more serious than rescuing his wife.

But in the end this discusion is pointless in the anyway because i don't really believe that for Kirito is wasting time because playing around is more important than saving Asuna.
My problem is just that the author, director or whoever is resposible for this, makes it seem like Kirito prefers to play around instead on really trying to reascue her.

So i will quote myself again.
Quote:
In the end i have just a problem with how the author is handling the sitation. He just failed to deliver what the main character if this story is thinking and what he is intending to do.

Again, relentlessflames post in witch he reasonable explained what is wrong.
Quote:
It's fairly logical to assume that as anime viewers (because we can guess that nothing that happens is unintentional), but they never actually have Kirito say this, nor even hint at the logic that went into his decision. He doesn't really show it on his face either, intendingand instead we only see him having fun in the game and getting closer to Leefa. They did hint previously that getting up the world tree may require cooperation between the races, but they haven't shown Kirito making the connection. Absent any further hints/insight, it can look like he's ignoring Asuna to take care of this "side-business", as if saying "well, Asuna can wait for a bit". That probably isn't actually what he's thinking, but that hasn't really been clearly conveyed so far. I think it will be made more clear going-forward.
Bahamut explained also pretty god what i find odd since a couple of episodes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamut View Post
...there is nothing wrong with Kirito's philosophy and morals...because this is who he is...but its just more odd that they want to emphasise these beliefs when ideally his love for Asuna should be as...if not more...important...

...the assumption is that Kirito believes Asuna is in ALO...because if she is not...then he is surely using a lot of time just for confirmation...imagine that it really is not her...remember that the so called wedding takes place in a week...

...if Kirito ends up taking even 4 days to reach the top but turns out it is not her then what? ...hes got 3 more days to pull a miracle...chances then he will surely break down...
...meeting deadlines gets deadlier when days becomes hours...minutes...seconds...

...besides that...since if this is all under Leafa's point of view hence no Kirito thoughts...then they should have made Leafa notice odd behaviours or expressions at least once per episode that will lead to her asking why he is so eagar to reach the top...who this person he is trying to save mean to him...and why is at times he is all jokes yet seems to be a forced smile...

...like that moment in the pub...it may be annoying to see this presented because it may show him as emo but in order to show his love/devotion for Asuna it needs to be fed to the audience...

...SAO arc emphasise that death in the game meant death in real life...and that was portrayed from time to time...so ALO should be about saving Asuna therefore it should be portrayed as well...

...unfortunately all we have is Leafa falling for Kirito thinking he is "her" knight in shining armour...and most of her shocked impressions are based on Kirito's beliefs that are not related to Asuna...perhaps this is Leafa's story and Kirito's story is the "side quest"...
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Old 2012-11-13, 22:14   Link #271
Oroboro
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It has NOTHING to do with the fact that it's "Just a game" and everything to do with the fact that Kirito isn't the kind of person who would betray his friends, to completely screw someone over after they've been nothing but friendly and selflessly willing to help you.

You seriously think that scene should've gone "Lyfa: Kirito, if you want to kill me and join the Salamanders, you can. " "Kirito: Okay! *Stab*"?
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Old 2012-11-13, 22:33   Link #272
Dr. Casey
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Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
Kirito's philosophy is basically "Don't be an asshole, just because it's "Just a game" or "Just the internet" and you can get away with it. They're real people."

Which is perfectly reasonable and quite frankly could stand to be a lot more widespread.
Agreed. I wanted to high five Kirito for that; I've always disliked the "It's just the internet, so it's okay to act without any sort of class or decency" mindset that so many people have. Good job, Kirito. Generation Z kids aren't so bad.
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Old 2012-11-13, 22:48   Link #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
It has NOTHING to do with the fact that it's "Just a game" and everything to do with the fact that Kirito isn't the kind of person who would betray his friends, to completely screw someone over after they've been nothing but friendly and selflessly willing to help you.

You seriously think that scene should've gone "Lyfa: Kirito, if you want to kill me and join the Salamanders, you can. " "Kirito: Okay! *Stab*"?
This x 1000

Some of the people posting here, want Kirito to go out of character. That's not going to happen as we've had 19 episodes to establish the good guy that he is who also plays by the rules when possible.
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Old 2012-11-14, 00:12   Link #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher View Post
SAO:
When people die ingame, they also die in rea life. Consequences to rea life.
ALO:
People die ingame. Who cares? It's just a game, nothing really happened and real life can go on. 0 Consequences to rea life.

The point that i'm trying to make and that some people don't seem to get is that ALO is just a game. And i don't get how someone can take a game more serious than rescuing his wife.
Well, death can't be the only thing that make game actions consequential. Otherwise, what value is the relationship Kazuto has with Asuna in the first place now that they're out of SAO? That's exactly why Kazuto asked Asuna if their relationship was only "in-game", and she got mad at him. And when Sugou tries to suggest that Asuna might as well "have fun" with him since it's only just a game, she doesn't see it that way either. To both Kirito and Asuna, the game world is just as real as the "real world", and so neither of them are going to betray their values for their own gain just because there are "zero consequences". The relationships formed in-game are real, and when Leefa was in trouble, it was the noble thing to help. It doesn't override his primary mission but what he knows of the situation isn't enough to betray that value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher View Post
But in the end this discusion is pointless in the anyway because i don't really believe that for Kirito is wasting time because playing around is more important than saving Asuna.
My problem is just that the author, director or whoever is resposible for this, makes it seem like Kirito prefers to play around instead on really trying to reascue her.
Perhaps, and I know you keep quoting my point (so I do understand what you're getting at), but by the same token I don't think it's because he's trying to "play around". I think he's trying to do the right thing by Leefa as well for the people she cares for as well as for Asuna (who, for all he knows, may not even be there, and doesn't appear to be in active present danger given that Sugou needs to continue keeping her alive for his plan to work). I agree that it would help to expose more of what Kirito's thinking, but I wouldn't assume the other extreme either.

Anyway, this debate has gone around in enough circles by now, I'm sure.
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Old 2012-11-14, 00:18   Link #275
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It's also worth noting that there is no penalty in real life either to backstabbing your friends. It's just that it makes it harder to make new or reliable friends in the future. It's exactly the same in a game world like ALO. Just because there is no in game bolt of lightning that hits you when you betray someone so doesn't that mean that it's always a good idea, even from a purely selfish perspective.
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Old 2012-11-14, 02:57   Link #276
Bahamut
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...i say if the whole Sugou scene at the hospital didnt happen at all or perhaps until after Kirito knows Asuna is being held in the game...it would be a lot more easier to direct these eps...

...besides that...i hope/looking forward to Kirito getting his SAO buddies or something...or recruiting more allies...
...i dont mind still shots as fight scenes...but i want to see a more people involved...after how many years watching something like Dead Fantasy...fight scenes will never be the same lol...
...of course i dont mind duels and what not...but...this is a mmo...i want to see a group effort...
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Old 2012-11-14, 10:45   Link #277
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Originally Posted by Newfan View Post
What exactly is Kiroto going to do when he confirms that is or isn't Asuna I wonder? Getting her to 'wake up' or log out from inside the game is most likely an impossibility. Going to the police with a 'hey my gf is stuck in a virtual reality game' will also probably not net too much results.
Maybe there is an admin panel up there that he or Yui can use.
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Old 2012-11-14, 11:33   Link #278
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Okay guys, is there any chance that Asuna escapes from her bird cage? You can take a guess if she's gonna do it in either Episode 21 or 22.
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Old 2012-11-14, 12:18   Link #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
Agreed. I wanted to high five Kirito for that; I've always disliked the "It's just the internet, so it's okay to act without any sort of class or decency" mindset that so many people have. Good job, Kirito. Generation Z kids aren't so bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
This x 1000

Some of the people posting here, want Kirito to go out of character. That's not going to happen as we've had 19 episodes to establish the good guy that he is who also plays by the rules when possible.
*Sigh* it isn't about expecting Kazuto to go out of character: I never expected one bit to see him stabbing Leefa whatsoever.
There is another plain option: simply declining and keep going alone. It isn't like he would act like a douche, considering it is a matter that does not have any deep implication with him, and Suguha realized that the guy behind ALO Kirito has "special" reason to goes to the world tree, past the faction war, hence why she wouldn't mind being stabbed there.

The other option would have been a compromise, with Kirito's assistance, like escorting Leefa to the possible ambush, then leaves.

The simple fact Leefa helped him in the game as a guide doesn't mean he has any obligation to repay the favor (this does happen so much IRL and in MMO that it has no morality weight). Of course, anyone who followed the series thus far wouldn't be surprised to see him giving assistance to Leefa. Once again, the problem is how his behaviour and actions tend towards to be easely focusing on ALO conflicts and all, instead of his main priority, due to the overly "Leefa centred" direction of the arc.
I wouldn't be surprised if Asuna is the main worry of Kazuto all the frigging time, and that's the natural case, but the -presentation- fails in that regard, which is the root of the problem. And the fact ALO conflict is not as important as Asuna's being trapped in there doesn't help in that odd direction. It really has nothing to do with "make friends, make an army to save Asuna", because such points are -not- hinted within the character perspectives. As a narrative perspective, it is a given, but that's that.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-11-14 at 12:29.
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Old 2012-11-14, 13:23   Link #280
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I wasn't arguing against you, Klashi; I was only saying that I liked Kirito's basic philosophy and thought he worded it eloquently.
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