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Old 2012-11-14, 06:07   Link #581
Rainrir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Mogamett isn't Scar. He's closer to the Fuhrer King Bradley at this point.
And Mustang is obviously Sindbad, with tons of parallels.

And like I said, Wrath was taken down by force.

My shounen logic? Treat kids like pests, kick a crying pleading child in the face, and you deserve to get punched. Prefabably more than once.
I cannot believe you can't see that... or have you not read the newest chapter?
Bradley basically doesn't care about the rest of the world beyond Father, not even his wife...even though he mentioned that's the only thing he cared even a little about. Mogamett cares for the well-being every single magician child out there that is still under what he thinks is "misguided ideas" or are still suffering from oppression/discrimination/exploitation, and he is obviously concerned for the well-being of Yamu. Mogamett has more parallels with Scar than you think. Scar basically:

1) Kill the innocent, oppressor race couple who just saved you
2) Kill every soldier sent against you in a fight YOU picked with the State
3) Kill every state alchemist regardless of their own culpability in the "crime" against your people (Iron Blood Alchemist is the best example, so is his targeting of Armstrong)
4) Hate every one who is of the oppressor race.
5) Demand stronger, more violent action against the oppressor race.
6) Highly protective of members of his own race.

The only difference is that Mogamett is the person that actually succeeded, while Scar didn't and was given a new direction in life. I think Scar (early on) deserves as much punches as Mogarett does, but you know what is even better? Making him drop his hate, making him realize he is "wrong" (before or after punching him out).
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Old 2012-11-14, 06:11   Link #582
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Originally Posted by Rainrir View Post
Bradley basically doesn't care about the rest of the world beyond Father, not even his wife...even though he mentioned that's the only thing he cared even a little about. Mogamett cares for the well-being every since magician child out there that is still under what he thinks is "misguided ideas" or are still suffering from oppression, and he is obviously concerned for the well-being of Yamu. Mogamett has more parallels with Scar than you think. Scar basically:

1) Kill the innocent, oppressor race couple who just saved you
2) Kill every soldier sent against you in a fight YOU picked with the State
3) Kill every state alchemist regardless of their own culpability in the "crime" against your people (Iron Blood Alchemist is the best example, so is his targeting of Armstrong)
4) Hate every one who is of the oppressor race.
5) Demand stronger, more violent action against the oppressor race.
6) Highly protective of members of his own race.

The only difference is that Mogamett is the person that actually succeeded, while Scar didn't and was given a new direction in life. I think Scar (early on) deserves as much punches as Mogarett does, but you know what is even better? Making him drop his hate, making him realize he is "wrong" (before or after punching him out).
Scar was consumed by his hate, but he was never blinded. He was aware of his own villainy.
Mogamett is a blind fool.

That is a huge difference to me.

BESIDES! Scar did get his ass whopped more than once, deservingly.
People didn't just go easy on the fool, not only was he a wanted man, but Ed & Al clashed with him repeatedly until his eventual redemption.

As for the last part, that's fine. As long as he gets his ass whopped first.
Remember, Shounen Sunday here!
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Old 2012-11-14, 07:59   Link #583
hawkeyesvn
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I think we're going a bit too far here! Let's make it simple: A guy that treat people like animal just because they don't have any special abilities is absolutely not okay! Before this chapter, I actually thought there's something Alladdin can do to help him but I was wrong. He needs to have his ass whooped hard!
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Old 2012-11-14, 11:56   Link #584
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I don't see how he mentions he is "superior of Scheherazade", he merely says that he wants to help people with magical potential like Yamu and Scheherazade to avoid the fate of being exploited by the Goi for their own ends.
Because he obviously thinks she, a Magi can be tutored by a thing like him?

That's like an ant trying to tell me how to live my life...
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Old 2012-11-14, 12:39   Link #585
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
That's like an ant trying to tell me how to live my life...
Ant- Here's what you should do: Find the biggest, fattest bitch you can, have her lay around at home all day while you work your ass off to feed her and just plops out tons of kids all year.

Legit advice...
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Old 2012-11-14, 16:41   Link #586
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Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
I think the correct way to fix the system is to not have children be born into the 5th district. They should be raised in the 4th district and given a basic education. After a certain age they can be given a choice of whether to continue their education, join the 5th district, or leave the city. Everyone should be given a chance at self-actualization, even if they were destined to end up in the 5th district anyways. From an utilitarian standpoint, you'd end up with roughly the same amount of GOI's in the 5th district, as people who are unable to support themselves will end up there anyways. However, the chance of revolution would be even lower as everyone who is in the 5th district would have realized that is their place, and you'd end up with a small percentage of truly hardworking or talented GOI's who will contribute to the society. I think Dumbledouche's blind hatred for GOI prevents him from seeing the merits of such a system, and will eventually lead to his downfall.
This may be the most comprehensive way to solve the personnel problems with Magnostat's system. The easiest way is to just open the doors. There is always an excess population of people available who would love to be fed for just lazing around doing nothing. The one intractable problem is that any system based on pure racism is doomed to failure.

Unfortunately rulers with too much power will always want to control their subjects' movements. Witness medieval laws on serfs leaving their masters' land, the Berlin wall, North Korea, etc. The option to "vote with your feet" relieves the pressures which can cause revolts. If taxes are too high in California or New York, moving to Arizona, Florida or Texas is always an alternative.
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Old 2012-11-14, 17:10   Link #587
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Geez, I'm gone for a day or two and I see a full-blown political/morality debate erupted in my absence..... usually, I experience that in OP threads!


Anyway, I'm pretty much with Aohige here. As good as it may be, Magi is no Watchmen, so I see no reason to dig through every page for every little ounce of DEEP, COMPLEX SUBTEXT or whatever. Sometimes, a pulp shonen series is just that: A pulp shonen series. I mean, it's like reading a Tintin story and wondering why Herge never delved into the deep, dark tale behind Captain Haddock's alcoholism, lol.



And with THAT being said.... I eagerly await the moment when Aladdin (or some other great force) serves that racist ol' Dumblemort a slice of humble pie.
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Old 2012-11-14, 19:12   Link #588
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Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
I think the correct way to fix the system is to not have children be born into the 5th district. They should be raised in the 4th district and given a basic education. After a certain age they can be given a choice of whether to continue their education, join the 5th district, or leave the city. Everyone should be given a chance at self-actualization, even if they were destined to end up in the 5th district anyways. From an utilitarian standpoint, you'd end up with roughly the same amount of GOI's in the 5th district, as people who are unable to support themselves will end up there anyways. However, the chance of revolution would be even lower as everyone who is in the 5th district would have realized that is their place, and you'd end up with a small percentage of truly hardworking or talented GOI's who will contribute to the society. I think Dumbledouche's blind hatred for GOI prevents him from seeing the merits of such a system, and will eventually lead to his downfall.
That's an interesting idea. Made me go look up the population statistics (c154, pages 5 and 18 are interesting). The breakdown is:
5th District - 200,000 - Goi
4th District - 80,000 - Goi
3rd District - 20,000 - Goi & Magicians?
2nd District - 3,000 - Magicians
1st District - 500 - Magicians

So the magoi of 200k people can, with magic tools, do enough work to sustain 303,500 people. Food, drink, probably fibers and fabrics for clothing, shelter and temperature control, and even more than that (from what we saw of the city).

Really, although even 4th District goi looked down on the 5th District people, they're very respectable if their magoi helps do all that. Sure, they can't pay their "tax liabilities"--but even if they're not productive through work or knowledge, by just living their magoi lets the city really thrive.

With a little bit of work, the system could really be amazing. Get rid of the death pits. Give the minors a bit of education and thus give them a shot at social mobility and 4th district life if they want it. With a little political history and social reform, I bet you'd get a lot of people staying in the 5th District. Good odds that it would be a much better life than an average peasant in many other countries. And more productive too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
And with THAT being said.... I eagerly await the moment when Aladdin (or some other great force) serves that racist ol' Dumblemort a slice of humble pie.
It's too bad he grew up in a country full of people like Jamil. If he'd met more people like Hakuei or the old Kouga lady things could've been even more amazing.
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Old 2012-11-14, 20:50   Link #589
Rainrir
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Geez, I'm gone for a day or two and I see a full-blown political/morality debate erupted in my absence..... usually, I experience that in OP threads!

Anyway, I'm pretty much with Aohige here. As good as it may be, Magi is no Watchmen, so I see no reason to dig through every page for every little ounce of DEEP, COMPLEX SUBTEXT or whatever. Sometimes, a pulp shonen series is just that: A pulp shonen series. I mean, it's like reading a Tintin story and wondering why Herge never delved into the deep, dark tale behind Captain Haddock's alcoholism, lol.

And with THAT being said.... I eagerly await the moment when Aladdin (or some other great force) serves that racist ol' Dumblemort a slice of humble pie.
Except even TinTin has a level of realism behind it (starting with the TT& the Blue Lotus), the same for FMA and OP. Frankly, Magi already show that it doesn't want to take shounen-eque answers to complex problems (aka punch it till it works). This is already shown in the Balbadd arc. Ohtaka is obvious trying to show that the Magoshuatt problem is a complex one.

I am not sure why you want Magi to be dumbed down to Bleach/Naruto level (where the solution is to beat the next guy up) just because of its perceived status as "pulp shounen". By that logic, FMA shouldn't have done what it did too (since it is too a "pulp shounen"), and OP shouldn't talk about racism or insititutionalized caste systems ("pulp shounen" too).

Funny you should mention Watchman. It is precisely by introducing complex themes and characterization into "pulp" comic books that Alan Moore, with V for Vendetta and Watchmen, (and Frank Miller with his work on Batman) eventually created the subgenre that pretentious pricks these days call "Graphic Novels" and generally raised the bar for comic book writing as a whole (disregarding the Dark Age excesses). I don't see why some complexity or characterization should not be introduced into "pulp" media, just by virtue of being "pulp".

It is not like I am asking for Alan Moore level of "EVERY PAGE HAS ARTISTIC MERIT AND THEMATIC IMPORTACE" thingmajig, but rather the general ideas and portrayal would benefit from a level of realism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
I think the correct way to fix the system is to not have children be born into the 5th district. They should be raised in the 4th district and given a basic education. After a certain age they can be given a choice of whether to continue their education, join the 5th district, or leave the city. Everyone should be given a chance at self-actualization, even if they were destined to end up in the 5th district anyways. From an utilitarian standpoint, you'd end up with roughly the same amount of GOI's in the 5th district, as people who are unable to support themselves will end up there anyways. However, the chance of revolution would be even lower as everyone who is in the 5th district would have realized that is their place, and you'd end up with a small percentage of truly hardworking or talented GOI's who will contribute to the society. I think Dumbledouche's blind hatred for GOI prevents him from seeing the merits of such a system, and will eventually lead to his downfall.
This is challenging to implement. Because this means that you either seperate a 5th child from his/her family at birth so they can live in the 4th and get education, or you bring both the family and child up to the 4th, which will break the system completely. If you seperate a child completely from her 5th family and if s/he fails and falls back into the 5th, s/he will be completely devoid of family support and connections. This makes surviving the 5th nearly impossible.

Not to mention that you only need so many doctors and scholars, what about people who miss it by only a little? Do you really think those people will be willing to go back to the 5th after experiencing life in the 4th and having a boatload of knowledge? Status demotion is one of the surest way to incite revolution. The current situation is sustainable because it is based on the fact that "there is no way out", "they don't know how much better it is above the 5th" for the young people and "I like it here" for the old. There is also a level of "resignation" that they will always be in the 5th. However, if you let the young have a taste of the 4th, then banish them back to the 5th....

"Dumbledouche" does have hatred for the Goi (though I am not sure if it is blind, since he explicitly set out to keep the Goi down politically because he thinks they cannot be trusted with anything). However, Marga herself said that becoming a scholar or doctor is a way out of the 5th. There already exist some form of social mobility between the 5th and 4th/3rd, I think talking about social mobility is moot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Because he obviously thinks she, a Magi can be tutored by a thing like him?

That's like an ant trying to tell me how to live my life...
Just because a person is better/smarter/more powerful/older, does not mean a "lesser" person cannot have a point, or the "superior" person is not misguided in some of his thinking. If that is the logic, college professors should be immune to any criticism and people like Bill Clinton/David Petraeus shouldn't be criticized for his philandering ways. I think this is what Mogamett means when he said what he said he wants to open loli magi's eyes to his ideology (if she is indeed a real Magi).

PLus, we shouldn't use animal analogy just because Mogamett uses them too

Last edited by Rainrir; 2012-11-14 at 21:18.
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Old 2012-11-14, 22:05   Link #590
aohige
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Originally Posted by Rainrir View Post

I am not sure why you want Magi to be dumbed down to Bleach/Naruto level (where the solution is to beat the next guy up) just because of its perceived status as "pulp shounen". By that logic, FMA shouldn't have done what it did too (since it is too a "pulp shounen"), and OP shouldn't talk about racism or insititutionalized caste systems ("pulp shounen" too).
Is there nothing but extreme to you? You're starting to use strawman.

The FMA you keep bringing up, as I already mentioned, has plenty of prowl and beat up the bad guys. The Scar comparison you made, I already told you Scar was beat down in fights PLENTY of times before his redemption.
It makes no sense you want to protect and shield Mogamett from violence, yet you go and make comparison to Scar, who.... uh.... was an antagonist the protagonists FOUGHT IN BATTLES over, and over, and over. By your own logic, you're calling FMA "Naruto and Bleach level".
You keep evading these points that directly contradicts your statements..
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Old 2012-11-14, 22:10   Link #591
Rainrir
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Is there nothing but extreme to you? You're starting to use strawman.

The FMA you keep bringing up, as I already mentioned, has plenty of prowl and beat up the bad guys. The Scar comparison you made, I already told you Scar was beat down in fights PLENTY of times before his redemption.
It makes no sense you want to protect and shield Mogamett from violence, yet you go and make comparison to Scar, who.... uh.... was an antagonist the protagonists FOUGHT IN BATTLES over, and over, and over. By your own logic, you're calling FMA "Naruto and Bleach level".
You keep evading these points that directly contradicts your statements..
I am not SHIELDING Mogamett from violence. Why would you get that idea,beyond constructing a "straw man" that you deplore? I am merely saying that beating the other guy up isn't enough, you need to defeat his ideology and world view as well. I hope that Magi would take such a path, instead of just simplistic "pawnch to the jaw" solution.

Bro, I ALREADY before said that we should "make him realize he is wrong (before or after beating him up)" (emphasis mine). Large number of beatdowns Scar had have nothing to do with the protagonists (beyond the first fight), most of Scar's beat downs are inflicted on him by the "common foe" the Homoculus. Yet, none of the beatdowns by them cause any character development in Scar, until he is explicitly shown why he is wrong by Winry and his fellow Ishvalans. That is the resolution I think be better for Mogamett, before or after he is beaten up (emphasis mine). I even think beating him up is optional if his word view is shattered and he make positive changes, but obvious that will depend on how the story goes.

I am arguing against common shounen solutions of "just beating the crap out of the guy and everything will fix itself". This is what I mean by "Bleach/Naruto" level, and it really is the baseline standards of most Shounen since the "softening" of the late 80s (and even before really).
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Old 2012-11-14, 22:13   Link #592
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Originally Posted by Rainrir View Post
I am not SHIELDING Mogamett from violence. Why would you get that idea, I am merely saying that beating the other guy up isn't enough. You need to defeat his ideology as well.

Bro, I ALREADY said that we should "make him realize he is wrong (before or after beating him up)"

I am arguing against common shounen solutions of "just beating the crap out of the guy and everything will fix itself".
Yeah, I don't really care for reading a messiah complex.
"The Hero will save us! We don't have to think for ourselves, because he will defeat the evil AND provide us with answers!"

No, I don't see that as "superior writing", and rather pretentious actually.
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Old 2012-11-14, 22:20   Link #593
Rainrir
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Yeah, I don't really care for reading a messiah complex.
"The Hero will save us! We don't have to think for ourselves, because he will defeat the evil AND provide us with answers!"

No, I don't see that as "superior writing", and rather pretentious actually.
And so you think Scar's development is pretentous, I guess Kassim's final development is pretentious tooo? Well that's a totally valid view to take, it you think so.

Just because the hero shows someone a potentially better path, doesn't mean that he is necessarily a messiah and "OH everything is fixed by the hero, including how we should think". Remember Ali Baba and Kassim? Ali Baba didn't make Kassim drop his hate because he is a messiah, but becaus he did make Kassim see what he has been blind to all this time by his example. Kassim came to the conclusion himself after he saw what Ali Baba was really like, how they are different. The same for Scar, he didn't have anyone force the ideas upon him, only after seeing what you call "messiah complex" behavoir of Winry and Miles that he truly considers changing.

I am merely arguing that Mogamett has a character arc that could evolve like these characters, and I believe it would neither be pretentious nor be a "messiah complex" if he does have an arc like that.

Last edited by Rainrir; 2012-11-14 at 22:33.
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Old 2012-11-14, 22:30   Link #594
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And so you think Scar's development is pretentous, I guess Kassim's final development is pretentious tooo? Well that's a totally valid view to take, it you think so.

Just because the hero shows someone a potentially better path, doesn't mean that he is necessarily a messiah and "OH everything is fixed by the hero, including how we should think". Remember Ali Baba and Kassim? Ali Baba didn't make Kassim drop his hate because he is a messiah, but becaus he did make Kassim see what he has been blind to all this time. Kassim came to the conclusion himself after he saw what Ali Baba was really like.
Oh for god's sake No, I'm not saying Scar and Kassim is pretentious, they were not babysat by messiahs.

Look at the theme of Magi, go re-read the entire 14 volumes over if you have to.
What is Aladdin's role? Do you think he's Jesus Christ? Or even a leader?
Aladdin's role is, has always been, the three wise men + Merlin. He was never there to provide answer, he is there to support the "worthy king".

How did the story resolve Kouga clan conflict? All Aladdin did was "beat up the bad guy" when the worthy king was in danger. The Kouga people and Hakuei figured out the rest. Same with Balbaad. Aladdin is there to support his king, not LEAD.
I can't believe you haven't realized the main theme of this story this far into the manga.
Aladdin's role here in Magnostatt is, obviously, as ALWAYS, to judge whether the king is worthy or not.

You are shutting out criticisms to your posts, not really reading what marvel is saying, and jumping to your own conclusions, bringing up "oh so you want Naruto and Bleach level crap?" which does not help your argument at all.
No one is saying Mogamett should end here. No one is saying he shouldn't have redemption.
His eventual redemption is his problem. Aladdin is not there to babysit the asshole.
There's no problem with beating sense into him, and leaving the kingdom to handle its own problem.

Things may be different if there's another King Candidate here, but as far as we can see, there aren't any introduced.

As for your latter half of the problem... Aladdin is not Alibaba. Alibaba is not here.
If anyone's Jesus Christ, it's Alibaba.
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Old 2012-11-14, 22:49   Link #595
Rainrir
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Oh for god's sake

Look at Magi, go read the entire 14 volumes over.
What is Aladdin's role? You think he's Jesus Christ? Or even a leader?
Aladdin's role is, has always been, the three wise men + Merlin. He was never there to provide answer, he is there to support the "worthy king".
Aladdin's role is to prevent a re-run of Alma Toran. This is evident after he received Solomon's Wisdom. I believe this involves actively confronting the events and people who are trying (knowingly or not) to do that.

Read 162, he explicitly said he cannot leave the 5th alone, this implies he is taking a more proactive role in this, especially since Alibaba is now not with him. Heck, read the chapter were Aladdin says he must go to Magoshautt alone, Aladdin already said that there are some things he must do alone (without his King Candidate)

Not to mention that in the Balbadd arc, he specifically said that he believes Alibaba can and will stop Kassim, when their Magoi are merged, because "You are the king I selected". Aladdin does have a desired outcome for the Balbadd conflict and he actively helps towards that end. In fact, Alibaba would never had Aladdin's acknowledgment as his King Candidate if not for the fact that Aladdin approves of the qualities he thinks Alibaba has, which directly means they are on the same page for desirable solutions to problems of the world. You are painting an overly passive role for Aladdin.

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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
How did the story resolve Kouga clan conflict? All Aladdin did was "beat up the bad guy" when the worthy king was in danger. The Kouga people and Hakuei figured out the rest. Same with Balbaad. Aladdin is there to support his king, not LEAD.
I can't believe you haven't realized the main theme of this story this far into the manga.
Aladdin's role here in Magnostatt is, obviously, as ALWAYS, to judge whether the king is worthy or not.
No. Aladdin wa heavily involved. You seem to forget that he was central to making Baba drop her reservations about joining the Kou Empire. He was also central in getting a promise from Hakuei not to kill anyone from the Kouga clan, which helped Baba make her final decision. Things would not have went the way they did without his intervention at any stage (knowingly or not). I don't see why you want to paint him in a passive light. Aladdin didn't even know what on earth was a "King" at that stage and Hakuei is NOT his "King Candidate", so his actions are actually PRO-ACTIVELY trying for a desired outcome for people he cares about.

I don't think "being a deus ex machina" is a "main theme" of this manga. Yes, alot of things will require the people they helped to "do it themselves". However, by Aladdin's ACTIVE intervention it prevented the Balbadd situation that is on the brink from becoming a full-on slaughter (when he unleashed his Solomon's wisdom for everyone in Balbadd). He also intervened to prevent a full-on war between Kouga and Kou. While you are right that he does "leave somethings for everyone to work on", he isn't as passive as you are trying to portray .

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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
You are completely shutting out criticisms to your posts, not even really reading what marvel is saying, and just drawing your own conclusions.
No one is saying Mogamett should end here. No one is saying he shouldn't have redemption. So just stop.
His eventual redemption is HIS PROBLEM. Aladdin is not there to babysit the asshole.
There's no problem with beating sense into him, and leaving the kingdom to handle ITS OWN PROBLEM.

Things may be different if there's another King Candidate here, but as far as we can see, there aren't any introduced.

As for your latter half of the problem... Aladdin is not Alibaba. Alibaba is not here.
I didn't say that Aladdin needs to be the one that redeems Mogamett or "babysit" him. Though I think he probably has the easiest time if he wanted to, because of his ability to access Solomon's Wisdom. Where did you get the idea from? I am saying Mogamett's character has potential, beyond being a Ryosai or Jamil whose role is to get squashed and that's it.

I don 't understand why you portray my stance as trying to "protect him from violence" (which originated from you) or "Aladdin must redeem him" (which also originated from you).

The fact is that Aladdin already wants to get involved with dismantling the system, this is what he said so himself. I don't see why you think his role is merely that of an observer drone.

Last edited by Rainrir; 2012-11-14 at 23:14.
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Old 2012-11-14, 23:17   Link #596
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Aladdin has always been the supporter of his king.
I didn't say he wasn't active, I said he doesn't LEAD.
He's always been active, but never in the spotlight. Magi is a Merlin, not an Arthur.

He knows the nature of his being.
That's always been the case in the manga, he is not a king.

He may help in changing of Magnoshutatt, but ultimately it will be up to the magicians themselves to do the work. As I have repeatedly been saying, he's not a babysitter of the mortals, nor is he there to spoil them. Again, he is not the messiah.
You're suggesting Aladdin take control of the situation, and revolutionalize the system. That's not his role though.
And besides, humans have to stand on their on feet, be it guided by a human leader or not.
Divine intervention should take a backseat, otherwise it's "spoiling the mortals", IMO. Which Aladdin has never done, and I think will never do.
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Old 2012-11-14, 23:37   Link #597
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Aladdin has always been the supporter of his king.
I didn't say he wasn't active, I said he doesn't LEAD.

He knows the nature of his being.
That's always been the case in the manga, he is not a king.

He may help in changing of Magnoshutatt, but ultimately it will be up to the magicians themselves to do the work. As I have repeatedly been saying, he's not a babysitter of the mortals, nor is he there to spoil them. Again, he is not the messiah.
He did to some extent "babysit" the rioting Balbadd citizens, calming them down when the situation is spiralling out of control.

He also "babysited" Dunya and Elsnan. All of which he did with Solomon's wisdom. If he didn't cared about understanding and, to some extent, "healing the hearts" of his foes, he would never have did what he did for Dunya and lsnan, especially lsnan who stated Aladdin can just "will him away to save Alibaba", or Dunya, who already lost to them by that time.

Thing is that I believe Aladdin does have a certain desired outcome that he himself wants (which is to prevent a Alma Toran re-run). As Magi, he chooses a king that most fits his idea of a person who can achieve that outcome. Then he supports that Candidate. However, in this situation, he is away from his candidate (Alibaba), and in the Kouga scenario (where he is again seperated from Alibaba) he did take a more active role in achieving a desired outcome. I believe he will take an more active role if Alibaba does not become involve in this arc.

The thing is that I think I should state my position clearly.

1) I am not fundamentally opposed to hurting Moganett, though I believe it will be better if it also address his world view. I think would make it a more interesting character arc like that of Scar or Kassim.

2) Aladdin does not have to be the one that redeems ol' Dumbledore, even though he probably have the tools for it. Anyone can be that person, even Marga, depending on how things are written

3) I do not think Aladdin can "solve" all of the problems in Magostautt. However, like in Balbadd and Kouga, he probably will be quite vital in planting the seed that acts as a basis for "mortals" to solve their own problems.

Last edited by Rainrir; 2012-11-14 at 23:47. Reason: Better flow of points
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Old 2012-11-14, 23:44   Link #598
aohige
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Originally Posted by Rainrir View Post

2) I am not fundamentally opposed to hurting Moganett, though I believe it will be better if it also address his world view. I think would make it a more interesting character arc like that of Scar or Kassim.
Both of which were defeated in battle.
You do realize this, right? That both of these had to be defeated several times before any sense were knocked into them?

Hell, with Kassim, it was basically "Oops, looks like I'm dead. Well, I'm gonna confess and regret my sins before I go, sorry guys! Luv ya!"

Quote:
3) I do not think Aladdin can "solve" all of the problems in Magostautt. However, like in Balbadd and Kouga, he probably will be quite vital in planting the seed that acts as a basis for "mortals" to solve their own problems.
That is far more acceptable. Aladdin is always a supporter at best, not a king.
Along with 1), is it not the same as what I've been saying? Leaving it up to the humans to figure it out.
I don't mind Aladdin advising them, but he shouldn't take charge of it.
It comepletely goes against his character through out the entire series, not to mention his role.

Merlin should never outshine Arthur.
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Old 2012-11-14, 23:55   Link #599
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Originally Posted by Rainrir View Post
This is challenging to implement. Because this means that you either seperate a 5th child from his/her family at birth so they can live in the 4th and get education, or you bring both the family and child up to the 4th, which will break the system completely. If you seperate a child completely from her 5th family and if s/he fails and falls back into the 5th, s/he will be completely devoid of family support and connections. This makes surviving the 5th nearly impossible.
It's easy to survive in the 5th. Magoi draining makes people tired and can kill sick people when it takes too much. But that's just a question of adjusting magoi drain or rotating vulnerable/overworked people out of magoi draining zones.

It's mostly a logistical problem. How much magoi can we drain while maintaining a decent quality of life for everyone involved? How do we distribute the resulting goods?

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Originally Posted by Rainrir View Post
Not to mention that you only need so many doctors and scholars, what about people who miss it by only a little? Do you really think those people will be willing to go back to the 5th after experiencing life in the 4th and having a boatload of knowledge? Status demotion is one of the surest way to incite revolution. The current situation is sustainable because it is based on the fact that "there is no way out", "they don't know how much better it is above the 5th" for the young people and "I like it here" for the old. There is also a level of "resignation" that they will always be in the 5th. However, if you let the young have a taste of the 4th, then banish them back to the 5th....
So school them in the 5th instead. There's no absolute need to move them to the 4th. Also: allow people to leave the 5th for other countries.

As long as the quality of life is superior to what they could achieve in other countries, the 5th will keep a calm population. It'll be full of people who failed or can't do better in their country or other countries. Because they would just be beggars or subsistence farmers. I'm sure the 5th will have a fine population.

The magicians could even set up a small market down there, and give people in the 5th pay for magoi supplied instead of just giving them free food and stuff. If the magicians doesn't intentionally rig the market's prices it could give people a chance to save up if they really wanted. Then they, or their kids, could get a shot at life outside the 5th.

Or the magicians could give the 5th a small wage in addition to the free stuff they already get. They could use that to buy luxuries or save up for a shot at success outside. It's an even smaller change from the current system.

Last edited by Grey; 2012-11-15 at 00:13.
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Old 2012-11-14, 23:59   Link #600
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Both of which were defeated in battle.
You do realize this, right? That both of these had to be defeated several times before any sense were knocked into them?.
I would disagree. The many physical defeats of Scar did nothing to really further his character, until he met Mei, Marco...and more importantly when he met Winry and Miles. That is when his character really started to move beyond what he initially was.

Plus, Kassim (and Judal who was with him) wasn't defeated physically at all. Remember, right before the Magoi/Rukh merging Aladdin and Alibaba are still at a serious disadvantage in the fight, the "soul talk' is what direcly led to victory. He died because he gave up after realizing how foolish he was, not because "whelp, I am dying so I should confess my sins". The death followed his realization, not the other way around.

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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
That is far more acceptable. Aladdin is always a supporter at best, not a king.
Along with 1), is it not the same as what I've been saying? Leaving it up to the humans to figure it out.
I don't mind Aladdin advising them, but he shouldn't take charge of it.
It comepletely goes against his character through out the entire series, not to mention his role.

Merlin should never outshine Arthur.
Except Arthur isn't here, so maybe Merlin can have some initiative (like in that TV series). I doubt Aladdin really have more than one "worthy" King Candidate in mind for now. Judal too, seems to only have one candidate too (Kouen), despite "leading" multiple Djinn users into the Dungeons in Kou Empire.

Magi "leads" a King Candidate into a dungeon, but it also seems that the Djinn "choose" their own Candidate. I don't think Aladdin have much say in how Zagan chose Hakuryuu. There is still considerable mystery on who (Djinn, Magi) actually chooses what (King? King Candidate?). All i can say is that Alibaba is the only King Candidate Aladdin "approves" to be "King", despite him also "leading" Hakuryuu into the Zagan Dungeon.

Aladdin took the important footwork for things to even start changing in almost every scenario in the manga thus far. While I am not saying he is "taking charge" like a leader, I think his influence and active intervention is necessary for almost all resolutions to the the scenarios shown in the manga thus far.
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