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Old 2012-11-11, 16:43   Link #31161
Valkama
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After Genji's death, his corpse was never moved!

TBH it doesn't matter too much who the culprit of EP5 is as it's obviously different than the culprit in EP1-4 considering the Epitaph was solved. Of course I'm leaning towards it was Battler and he had Rosa and the other cousins as accomplice's.
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Old 2012-11-11, 17:03   Link #31162
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
After Genji's death, his corpse was never moved!

TBH it doesn't matter too much who the culprit of EP5 is as it's obviously different than the culprit in EP1-4 considering the Epitaph was solved. Of course I'm leaning towards it was Battler and he had Rosa and the other cousins as accomplice's.
Well, there wouldn't be much point in having a mystery in EP5 unless it somehow related to EP1-4. And while Battler+Rosa+cousins might make sense for the culprits of the fake murders, I can't see them all teaming up to murder Krauss or make those phone calls to Natsuhi.

For Rosa to kill Genji, she'd need to pretend to leave the mansion, loop around and reach the servant waiting room before Eva did, kill Genji really fast, and then rush back to the guesthouse in time to meet Erika in the lobby just after 1:00AM. We don't have an exact time of when Rosa reached the guesthouse, so it isn't impossible, but this would still be a pretty impressive feat, especially since she'd need to find some sort of weapon to kill Genji with.

And it's impossible for Rosa to have made that phone call to Natsuhi just after midnight.
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Old 2012-11-11, 17:07   Link #31163
Wegenbarth
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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
After Genji's death, his corpse was never moved!
Ah right, I forgot about that.
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Old 2012-11-11, 17:24   Link #31164
Valkama
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Well, there wouldn't be much point in having a mystery in EP5 unless it somehow related to EP1-4. And while Battler+Rosa+cousins might make sense for the culprits of the fake murders, I can't see them all teaming up to murder Krauss or make those phone calls to Natsuhi.
The mystery in EP5 was more of done for Lambda and Bern to entertain themselves as they were bored of Battler doing nothing. Or course there are clues for Shkanon in the story so it does still relate to EP1-4. Perhaps it doesn't make much sense for the cousins and rosa to want to kill Krauss however if I remember correctly wasn't it shown that Battler was the culprit or at least an accomplice?
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Old 2012-11-11, 19:18   Link #31165
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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
The mystery in EP5 was more of done for Lambda and Bern to entertain themselves as they were bored of Battler doing nothing. Or course there are clues for Shkanon in the story so it does still relate to EP1-4. Perhaps it doesn't make much sense for the cousins and rosa to want to kill Krauss however if I remember correctly wasn't it shown that Battler was the culprit or at least an accomplice?
Battler was an accomplice in the sense he agreed to cover up some lies.
For example he didn't say the ring wasn't delivered to them in a mysterious envelope or that George and Co weren't death as well as Hideyoshi.

He might not have known other things thought, for example that people was being killed or Yasu's true identity and might have cooperated only because requested by his parents and with the aim to have Natsuhi confess they lied about Kinzo being alive.

On the other side the cousins might have believed they were playing a game or a joke or something as it's unlikely Jessica would have done something against her mother.
Likely Rosa had told them a lie to have them cooperate.
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Old 2012-11-12, 05:28   Link #31166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
We don't have an exact time of when Rosa reached the guesthouse
We do:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erika
...we walked out of the archive into the hallway at 1:00 AM. When we did, we just happened to bump into Rosa-san as she returned.
...Possible reasons for this:
  • All these X:00 times are estimations. They are unnaturally precise, after all.
  • Ryuukishi fucked up.
  • The mansion and the guest house are actually less than 60 seconds apart, walking distance. (why would Rosa run?)
  • KnownNoMore was right about the clock being changed and there's some weird stuff going on regarding imagined time and actual time. BUT I still don't think this works, since Erika's claim to have been there from 1:00 to 3:00 was also verified in red, as was that Rosa didn't leave the mansion until 1:00.
  • Rosa has teleportation skillz. Now all mysteries can be explained.
Most likely reason is the first one, I think. Or the last.

And let me tell you, the first time I played through I was tearing my hair out at the fact that they were saying stuff like It has not been specified that the time of death was between 24:00 and 1:00. It's like NO SHIT, is Rosa supposed to be a corpse before she even left the family conference!?

And freakin' Dlanor negated Erika's theory when she said From 1:00 AM until the discovery of the crime, it was impossible for the crime to occur in the cousins' room!! The hell?

The only reason it's not a logic error is because they were on the human side, which has different responsibilities. Instead they were just wrong. Stupidly wrong, and never called out for it. I don't know if Ryukishi left it on purpose to fuck with me, or if he didn't even realize this inconsistency in the first place.

Last edited by Wanderer; 2012-11-12 at 05:39.
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Old 2012-11-12, 09:31   Link #31167
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It seems fairly clear in both End and Dawn that Ryukishi made no accounting whatsoever for logistical time, in the same way he appears to make no accounting whatsoever for people getting wet in the rain. It clearly takes at least a couple minutes to walk between the two houses, but in Erika Time(tm) it happens instantaneously. The situation is similar in ep6; basically anything that isn't Battler's room or the guesthouse rooms doesn't exist, travel between them is just assumed, and nobody is doing anything on their own until someone shows up to actually do something themselves.

The question is, how much did this come up before that? I can't remember any instances of, for example, a near-instantaneous Shannon/Kanon changeover (that is, one which would have to have happened so fast that it becomes implausible that a costume swap could happen that quickly).
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Old 2012-11-12, 10:59   Link #31168
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Ok, so I just switched operating systems from PC to Mac, do I now have to rebuy my umineko games? I was just re-getting to the good bits of ep 2!
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Old 2012-11-12, 12:26   Link #31169
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Ok, so I just switched operating systems from PC to Mac, do I now have to rebuy my umineko games? I was just re-getting to the good bits of ep 2!
No, if you've still got the Japanese version from HobiBox you can just grab the Mac patch installer from Witch Hunt's site.
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Old 2012-11-12, 18:33   Link #31170
Valkama
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
We do:

...Possible reasons for this:
  • Rosa has teleportation skillz. Now all mysteries can be explained.
Most likely reason is the first one, I think. Or the last.
It is known that Beatrice is a Witch
It is known that Beatrice is among the people on the island
It is known that whoever is Beatrice is the culprit
It is known that Rosa is among the people on the island
It has been shown that witch's can teleport
It has been shown that Rosa could be the culprit
It has been proven in red that Rosa can teleport

Therefore Rosa is Beatrice and a witch and caused all the murders.

GG
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Old 2012-11-12, 20:44   Link #31171
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Phew, thanks guys, with no manga updates and the Yen Press Manga coming out every 4 months for some reason I need my fix.



Rosa is a the witch? No, not aunt Rosa! I won't believe it!

Hang, what if, yes I got it!

It is possible more than one person on the island can teleport, so so someone else could be Beatrice!
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Old 2012-11-12, 20:50   Link #31172
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Rokkenjima exists in a state of quantum uncertainty, and people do not get wet when they go into the rain.

Therefore, everyone on Rokkenjima is capable of teleporting so long as their waveforms are not collapsed by the observation of the Detective.
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Old 2012-11-12, 22:10   Link #31173
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It's the island from The Tomorrow People and they're all able to teleport within a short range.
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Old 2012-11-12, 22:30   Link #31174
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
And let me tell you, the first time I played through I was tearing my hair out at the fact that they were saying stuff like It has not been specified that the time of death was between 24:00 and 1:00. It's like NO SHIT, is Rosa supposed to be a corpse before she even left the family conference!?

And freakin' Dlanor negated Erika's theory when she said From 1:00 AM until the discovery of the crime, it was impossible for the crime to occur in the cousins' room!! The hell?

The only reason it's not a logic error is because they were on the human side, which has different responsibilities. Instead they were just wrong. Stupidly wrong, and never called out for it. I don't know if Ryukishi left it on purpose to fuck with me, or if he didn't even realize this inconsistency in the first place.
Or, Erika just wasn't specific with her times (the line you quoted only gives a specific time for when she left the archive, not when she met Rosa), since she wanted to prove Natsuhi guilty as quickly and simply as possible. She wanted revenge for her loss in Kinzo's study, so her reasoning was a sloppy mess from start to finish.

It doesn't particularly matter to Erika if Rosa arrived at exactly 1:00 AM. Erika was within sight of the front door and staircase at 1:00 AM, so no one else could have gotten in or out. When she says "It's only possible for the crime to have taken place between 24:00 and 1:00!!", she really just means that the criminal could only have entered the guesthouse 2nd floor during that span of time, which is almost correct.

If she'd been more careful in her wording, she might have realized that the victims could have left during that hour just as easily. But since she took it for granted that the corpses were in the cousins room the next morning, this never even occurred to her.


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And freakin' Dlanor negated Erika's theory when she said From 1:00 AM until the discovery of the crime, it was impossible for the crime to occur in the cousins' room!! The hell?
Actually, that was Erika who said that line. This is the second line of red she uses after becoming a witch, which pretty much says it all.
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Old 2012-11-13, 04:27   Link #31175
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Or, Erika just wasn't specific with her times (the line you quoted only gives a specific time for when she left the archive, not when she met Rosa), since she wanted to prove Natsuhi guilty as quickly and simply as possible. She wanted revenge for her loss in Kinzo's study, so her reasoning was a sloppy mess from start to finish.
I have problems with this:

1st, the language, as it is written in English, pretty much says the two events (leaving the hall and meeting Rosa) happened at nearly the same time. Maybe it's a translation thing (unfortunately my EP5 crashes when I play it raw, so I can't check).

2nd, From 1:00 AM to 3:00 AM, Erika, Nanjo, and Gohda spent their time in the lounge on the first floor of the guesthouse.

Is "the hallway" part of "the lounge"? Normally I wouldn't think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
If she'd been more careful in her wording, she might have realized that the victims could have left during that hour just as easily. But since she took it for granted that the corpses were in the cousins room the next morning, this never even occurred to her.

Actually, that was Erika who said that line. This is the second line of red she uses after becoming a witch, which pretty much says it all.
Yeah, I realized it was Erika. Should have sooner by the lack of Dlanor-style speech PATTERNS.

But yeah, the whole sequence is dumb, and could have been fixed with a little re-wording.

Last edited by Wanderer; 2012-11-13 at 04:38.
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Old 2012-11-13, 08:47   Link #31176
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Yeah, Ryukishi has a lot of amazing ideas for scenes that are absolutely perfect conceptually, but he often makes really easy-to-avoid mistakes when actually executing them. They're really maddening when one notices them, because one can see so easily how the flaw could have been easily avoided with an incredibly minimal restructuring of the scene.

EP5 ???? and the EP6 logic error are both examples of this, I think.
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Old 2012-11-13, 09:11   Link #31177
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Is "the hallway" part of "the lounge"? Normally I wouldn't think so.
My impression of the guesthouse from the backgrounds and descriptions is that the first floor "lounge" is basically a large open area with seating and a bar, basically a common room, with the hallway and stairs both clearly visible from nearly anywhere in the room. Erika would not have been "in the hallway" as such, but she and Nanjo/Gohda could've seen anybody walking around there or coming up/down the stairs. Essentially, they controlled traffic through that area, and that's the only way anyone could've passed by.
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Old 2012-11-14, 07:57   Link #31178
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Quote:
EP5 ???? and the EP6 logic error are both examples of this, I think.
Out of interest, what did you like and what did you think was the fail?


But I agree, sometimes he's like an excited kid who has figured out a cool idea, but rushes to say it so quickly he just messes it up.
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Old 2012-11-14, 09:16   Link #31179
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The main flaw in the EP5 ???? is how the gold truth was handled, and how the rules kept changing for no apparent reason, which has already been discussed to death already.

The flaw in the EP6 logic error is the part where Dlanor "seals" the use of blue truths regarding the window, which is just a ridiculously contrived device that isn't even needed. A red truth saying that neither George, Shannon, Hideyoshi, Kumasawa, nor Nanjo left through the window would have conveyed the point much better without giving the player the mistaken impression that they are forbidden from using the windows of the next room over in their reasoning, when the solution does in fact necessitate it.

On an unrelated note, I was thinking about the arguments for the message bottles being authored pre-incident or post-incident earlier, and I had a sort of epiphany. Could it be that Legend was authored pre-incident, while Turn was authored post-incident? The more I thought about it, the more I realised that this would actually make a lot of sense.

It's a popular theory that Yasu portrayed herself as the murderer in the message bottles out of a feeling of guilt and self-loathing caused by her somehow indirectly causing the massacre to happen. But actually, there's a big difference between the way Yasu portrays Beatrice during EP1 and EP2.

In Legend, Beatrice is never actually seen until the very end, and remains a mysterious figure hidden in the shadows. There's nothing that suggests that she's a particularly cruel or sadistic person, and is even to some extent portrayed as benevolent; it's said that she doesn't cause harm to people who respect her, and the ceremony is implied to bring everyone to the Golden Land, where they will be happy.

But in Turn, it's completely different. Beatrice appears as an actual person throughout the whole tale, and this is by far the most negative portrayal of her throughout all episodes. Why would Yasu portray herself in this way?

She continually disparages and belittles the relationships that she's supposed to care about more than anything (George/Shannon and Jessica/Kanon).

She brutally tears the guts out of the parents of the three people that she's supposed to love most, undeniably intentionally making the scene much more disgusting than it needed to be for the purpose of following the epitaph.

And she makes it even worse for the three cousins by placing that letter in the VIP room which horribly insults both them and their dead parents in a completely uncaring and cruel manner.

After that, she mocks Kanon - mocks HERSELF, in other words - before killing both him and Jessica 'for fun' and laughing maniacally the whole time. Not content with just killing Kanon, she even brings him back as a zombie to further disgrace him. And then she proceeds to cruelly belittle George and Shannon's relationship before brutally killing both of them.

I think we can all agree that the only reason Yasu would ever portray herself behaving in such a horrible way - and in such a horrible way specifically towards the people that she cares about most - would be because she genuinely hated herself. So as you can see, the evidence of the message bottles' portrayal of Beatrice being a result of Yasu's self-loathing is actually entirely from EP2. There's no trace of this in EP1 at all, yet it's absolutely overwhelming in EP2. Isn't it sensible to conclude that Legend was written before the incident happened, while she thought that everything would turn out the way she planned, and that EP2 was written afterwards, in despair after all her plans had failed and everything she cared about was lost as a result of her own 'game'?

Rereading the conversation between Ange and Ootsuki in EP4, this seems completely plausible. No idea is given of the time that the fisherman found the first message bottle (nor is there any indication of which bottle is which, so the bottle found by the fisherman may well have been EP2). In fact, it's said that the fisherman's message bottle wasn't even taken seriously at the time because it could have been forged. So there is no evidence that says that this bottle has to have been authored pre-incident. Whereas the bottle found by the police is said to have been found on the day of the incident. So it is pretty much impossible that it could have been authored post-incident. The proof that this bottle was written pre-incident, combined with the similarity between the two bottles, led the public to conclude that the bottles must both have been written pre-incident. But actually, only one of them had any evidence that pointed to this. So it's entirely possible that one of them (Legend) was written beforehand while one (Turn) was written afterwards.

What do you think, everyone?
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Old 2012-11-14, 11:26   Link #31180
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Could be. It would solve the problem of having to hoax the police; their story is genuine and pre-incident, so what they found was found entirely honestly. It wasn't released for some reason or other (probably seen as evidence), but the "discovery" of the second bottle (which can never truly be proven to have come from where the fisherman says it did) prompted release of the first.

You couldn't do it better if you planned it. And it sort of seems like you did.

It's also interesting that the episode after Beatrice starts behaving like a dick, she starts getting gradually rehabilitated in stories that were written by someone other than the message bottle writers. It seems possible that the original intent was to introduce the rehabilitation later and maybe make Beatrice even more of a troll and an ass in Land, hence its alleged maliciously high difficulty. If Land was the third (and presumably final) "message bottle story," and the "forgery" stories started later than they did when Banquet was introduced, that would make some sense.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
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This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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