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Old 2012-11-15, 00:07   Link #601
aohige
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Originally Posted by Rainrir View Post
I would disagree. The many physical defeats of Scar did nothing to really further his character, until he met Mei, Marco...and more importantly when he met Winry and Miles. That is when his character really started to move beyond what he initially was.

Plus, Kassim (and Judal who was with him) wasn't defeated physically at all. Remember, right before the Magoi/Rukh merging Aladdin and Alibaba are still at a serious disadvantage in the fight, the "soul talk' is what direcly led to victory.
But you cannot skip past the confromtation and battles they had.
Skipping to the end, ignoring the actual build up, does not serve the same impression.
You're only looking at the outcome, not the progression.
They were firmly established as antagonists, served with conflicts. You cannot, CANNOT just ignore that.

If you really want to compare Magomett with Scar and Kassim, then conflict and battles are inevidable part of the cycle.
Otherwise, you're only comparing him to convinient parts of the two characters, which is disservice to your own argument.

Quote:
Except Arthur isn't here, so maybe Merlin can have some initiative (like in that TV series). I doubt Aladdin really have more than one "worthy" King Candidate in mind for now. Judal too, seems to only have one candidate too (Kouen), despite "leading" multiple Djinn users into the Dungeons in Kou Empire.
Aladdin has always stepped back, and calmly observed the situation, only giving helping hands and advice.
This has never changed.

He chose Alibaba, yes. But his role in Kouga Clan and Hakuei was very obvious that he was only supporting, albeit with great influence, the two leaders baba and Hakuei (the worthy kings) to find resolution. I'm not saying "worthy kings" are ones Aladdin chose, those are exactly what they are, worthy kings in the Magi of Creation's eyes.

Aladdin is the protagonist of the manga, but he is not the protagonist of the world. He is a guide, a prophet, not a king.
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Old 2012-11-15, 00:21   Link #602
Rainrir
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
But you cannot skip past the confromtation and battles they had.
Skipping to the end, ignoring the actual build up, does not serve the same impression.
You're only looking at the outcome, not the progression.
They were firmly established as antagonists, served with conflicts. You cannot, CANNOT just ignore that.

If you really want to compare Magomett with Scar and Kassim, then conflict and battles are inevidable part of the cycle.
Otherwise, you're only comparing him to convinient parts of the two characters, which is disservice to your on argument.
Bro, you are the one who said "these characters have sense beaten into them", when it is quite obvious that "sense wasn't beaten into them" at all from how these stories progressed. The physical conflict happens, but that was not what lead to these characters "gaining sense".

I am not ignoring or challenging the fact that they are at some point of the story "antagonists"will get into physical conflict with the protagonists. Mogamett is already an antagonist and might get into physical conflict with the protagonists, I am not stupid enough to argue against that.

I am merely saying that their character resolution. and the victory of the protagonist over them, does not really entail "having sense beaten into them" at all, as you were trying to say many posts before (though it seems to have shifted now), which basically imply "FALCON PAWCH = character resolution". It is not a "might makes right" situation for Scar and Kassim's character resolution at all. I also hope the same for Morganett, since his character has that potential to be more than, as I said before, a Ryousai/Jamil whose only role is to be bitchslapped.

I mean just use an example of Magneto, who Morganett is often compared to. I mean he has his butt kicked alot by the X-men, but that is not what made him change his world view to be less of a mutant hardass. Sense wasn't "beaten" into him, even though he sometimes tasted defeat, other events and people did "(Like Xavier, the Avengers and their acceptance of Mutants, the events of House of M etc etc etc).

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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Aladdin has always stepped back, and calmly observed the situation, only giving helping hands and advice.
This has never changed.

He chose Alibaba, yes. But his role in Kouga Clan and Hakuei was very obvious that he was only supporting, albeit with great influence, the two leaders baba and Hakuei (the worthy kings) to find resolution. I'm not saying "worthy kings" are ones Aladdin chose, those are exactly what they are, worthy kings in the Magi of Creation's eyes.

Aladdin is the protagonist of the manga, but he is not the protagonist of the world. He is a guide, a prophet, not a king.
A guide who chooses the worthy based on his own values, and to avoid a certain phopetic outcome, is still a major actor in the world. Again, I am not saying "Aladdin solves everything", but by how the manga is going thus far it is "Aladdin is the start of solving many issues". A willing facilitator is still highly important, especially since Aladdin's initiative seriously greased the wheels and make it work better than it could have.

Last edited by Rainrir; 2012-11-15 at 00:34.
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Old 2012-11-15, 00:36   Link #603
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Originally Posted by Rainrir View Post
Bro, you are the one who said "these characters have sense beaten into them", when it is quite obvious that "sense wasn't beaten into them" at all from how these stories progressed. The physical conflict happens, but that was not what lead to these characters "gaining sense".

I am not ignoring or challenging the fact that they are at some point of the story "antagonists"will get into physical conflict with the protagonists. Mogamett is already an antagonist and might get into physical conflict with the protagonists, I am not stupid enough to argue against that.

I am merely saying that their resolution. and the victory of the protagonist over them, does not really entail "having sense beaten into them" at all, as you were trying to say many posts before (though it seems to have shifted now), which basically imply "FALCON PAWCH = character resolution". It is not a "might makes right" situation for Scar and Kassim at all.
LOL. Dude. I've lost count on how many times you have "shifted" your stance, pretty much every time contradictions in your own statement was shot down. You also take things too literally, and instantly connect physical conflict as "Narutoooooo" strawman.
When we say shounen action manga resolution of punch to the face, you jump to conclusion that it's all mindless brawlfest, no intelligence involved, yada yada. Your own prejudice is completely clouding reasonable thought or reaction.

Having senses beaten in. That doesn't mean a "physical punch put the idea into their heads... physically". That never happens, and you're taking words way too freakin literal. Senses beaten into them happens following a physical conflict. When an antagonist is physicaly and mentally beaten, defeated, broken, and is in a state to listen, accept, or ponder his predicament. This is the case with pretty much EVERY case of such shounen manga villain redemption.
Perhaps before you jump to the "OMG he must mean NARUTO! BLEACH!" conclusion, you might want to give it a thought of what it means.

That's why you never understood marvel's "slice of humble pie".
Because to you, punching a villain to his knees is NARUTO! BLEACH!
(which is quite ironic, as Naruto and Bleach is not really like that. That's more trait of One Piece, where the protagonist has no claimed responsibility of reprecussion, does not care, and just physicalliy beats the antagonist to pulp simply because he pisses him off. Resolve is left to the denizens, and the pirates move on. Which to you would be poor writing. It is not.)

Quote:
A guide who chooses the worthy based on his own values, and to avoid a certain phopetic outcome, is still a major actor in the world. Again, I am not saying "Aladdin solves everything", but by how the manga is going thus far it is "Aladdin is the start of solving many issues". A willing facilitator is still highly important, especially since Aladdin's initiative seriously greased the wheels and make it work better than it could have.
Another case of shifting your stance. You were all about Aladdin solving the problems of Magomett, and when shot down, you keep compromising your stance, without even admitting it.

I'm gonna end it on that note, I feel like arguing with a politician.
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Old 2012-11-15, 00:48   Link #604
Rainrir
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
LOL. Dude. I've lost count on how many times you have "shifted" your stance, pretty much every time contradictions in your own statement was shot down. You also take things too literally, and instantly connect physical conflict as "Narutoooooo" strawman.

Having senses beaten in. That doesn't mean a "physical punch put the idea into their heads... physically". That never happens, and you're taking words way too freakin literal. Senses beaten into them happens following a physical conflict. When an antagonist is physicaly and mentally beaten, defeated, broken, and is in a state to listen, accept, or ponder his predicament. This is the case with pretty much EVERY case of such shounen manga villain redemption.
Perhaps before you jump to the "OMG he must mean NARUTO! BLEACH!" nonsense, you might want to give it a thought.

That's why you never understood marvel's "slice of humble pie".
Because to you, punching a villain to his knees is NARUTO! BLEACH!
Except it doesn't always happen that way, as I said. I don't see where I have been shiting gears at all. I always maintained that the conflict resolution requires more than just the physical confrontation and always maintained that "you cannot punch a problem away". That has been the case since POST 1.

You do not always have to beat someone down to pulp and make him taste that sort of failure before s/he can even entertain that s/he is wrong. It can be gratifying for the audience, but that will just play to standard Shounen conventions. Scar wasn't beaten down to pulp before he started listening to Miles or Winry, nor was he at rock bottom. The same with Kassim, who is winning his fight at that stage.

I read marvel's comment about "eating humble pie", and comments that "blow up the system" as people who just want a direct "might makes right" resolution to a problem.Thinking that beating the person to a broken husk, making him/her lose everything, would automatically make them consider that their ideals are wrong. Realistically, it doesn't happen like that. Just look at Scar, everytime he gets beat down he just gets more attached to his ideas of revenge, the same with Magneto. What resolved their character arcs is not the physical conflict, or the fact that "they lost". Heck, Aladdin didn't win the argument with Kassim when he was "arguing with" Kassim. It was only until Kassim actually gets to see for himself how Aladdin is like, that he realizes his mistakes. The same with Dunya, beating her doesn't solve her character arc at all, it was the actions thereafter.

"Beat the guy and he will reconsider" happens in Shounen alot, and that is basically the baseline when I talk about "Naruto/Bleach". I think you overread into "Naruto/Bleach" level as be talking about these things being "bad", I am merely referring to sticking to a well-established Shounen "baseline". I am totally fine with that kind of portrayal even if they are generic, but of course it will be quite short of being "excellent" in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Another case of shifting your stance. You were all about Aladdin solving the problems of Magomett, and when shot down, you keep compromising your stance, without even admitting it.

I'm gonna end it on that note, I feel like arguing with a politician.
I am talking, before and now, about how Aladdin would have a important part to play in solving the issue, especially when he said that he CANNOT live the issue alone (162! seriously). This is especially true since he is away from his King Candidate and there is almost noone that he has identified as what you call a worthy leader that can resolve this situation.

I am not suggesting, never at all, that Aladdin would become THE NEW KING OF MAGOSTAUTT to solve the problem. I think the problem is that you keep forcing these words into my mouth, and when I deny them, you think I am shifting my stance. You can even pull and achieve check if you want. I had been pretty consistent on that position.

Last edited by Rainrir; 2012-11-15 at 01:01.
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Old 2012-11-15, 00:59   Link #605
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No. Your post 1 replying to me was when I said Dumberdouch is over his head, defending the little racist blind old man that he is not.
Which you have shifted.

Then some "reductionist" rant when I called him out for what he is.

Your argument has since the start, completely on the side of Mogamett being "he ain't that bad, stop calling him out". Which you shifted, most likely since you read 162.

You kept insisting at "complexity of his character", when really, he ain't that complex.
Neither is the situation at hand. I think you're overthinking it that way, and making a mess of argument based on the supposed "Magomett isn't that bad a person". But he is. (yes, I did a "reductionist" there. )

Like I said, politician talk.

WSS ain't /pol/, and a villain who kicks children in the face and thinks of them as maggots deserve to get beat up in a shounen manga.
Quite plain and simple. Just like anyone who acts like that in other Sunday manga, including Kongoh Banchou.
Even in FMA, if a character acted the way this old man did, I can guarantee you he would have had it coming. Regardless of "redemption" afterwards.
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Old 2012-11-15, 01:20   Link #606
Rainrir
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No. Your post 1 replying to me was when I said Dumberdouch is over his head, defending your little racist blind old man that he is not.
Which you have shifted.
I never said he is not a bad person or that he is not racist. I am saying I can understand why he is the way he is. I shall prove it to you. Check out the date.

This is me directly saying the current system's base assumption is racist(speciest).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainrir
If If he didn't feel the needs of the Magicians triumph the needs of the Goi, he would never have started this system in the first place. The system core assumption is that the 5th level Goi are only good for certain things only, otherwise the system cannot answer its own internal logical inconsistencies.
This is me stating what he actually wants for the Goi before 162 confirms it.

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Originally Posted by Rainrir View Post
I do not think he is under any illusion that he thinks he is treating the Goi any better than his Goi masters treated him then. His main goal is to advance the cause of the Magicians above everyone else's interests. Compared to other "Great Leaders" in history, I reckon Mogamett is closest to...Genghis Khan. As in, if you are Mongolian back then, Genghis Khan is a leader who gives endlessly and generously to his people. Woe be upon you if you are not Mongolian (or in Mogamett's case, Magician)...
This is me talking about looking at the Hogwarts system relative to the rest of the world. Note that I also stated that it can be much better.

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Originally Posted by Rainrir View Post
The key thing I want to express is that I think Hogwart's system is more humane than alot of the cattle slavery that happens in the world of Magi. Can the system be better? Definitely. Should it be improved? YES!...But did it improve things? Yeah, for most people involved compared to the past.
I am only arguing that while he is a bad, mad person, he does have reason and he does have "good" in him.

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Originally Posted by Rainrir View Post
@Misconceptions of the system
/snip

Of course, his view of seeing Goi as merely animals is detestable. But as Aladdin said, this makes him beyond good and evil...just...well...crazy...with some good intentions and alot of trauma from his own past.
Again, I am never arguing that Moganett is "white", I am arguing he is grey.

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Originally Posted by Rainrir View Post
Also I am not a Mognostatt worshipper. I just don't like reductionist arguments.

Yeah. It doesn't matter. However, it matters when we are looking at how we view a character. Most arguments I see just paints a simplistic black/white carciture which really limits the interpetation of Mogarett's character.
Note that I call him a racist prick even if he has a reason for that attitude.

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Originally Posted by Rainrir View Post
A racist prick can be a racist prick for no valid reason based on fantasies about the "other". On the other hand, a racist prick can also be a racist prick because his experiences taught him that it is true. The reality is that both the nobles, the king and the commoners that he once helped turned against him and his kind, this hardens attitudes...and gives his story selling power to his fellow magicians (Just like the Hol***** have selling power to alot of the Is****is about their treatment of the Pal*******s, another example is WW2 with the Chi**** against the Ja*******.) The complexity matters when we want to see the possible solutions to the problem, his "SOB" story matter when you need to dismantle it to win over the other magicians for something new.
Reductionist arguments is that "everything Magoshuatt does is wrong", the thing is that sometimes even the strawman has a point. His experience of Magician scape-goating, oppression and persecution is real. His all emcompassing concern for his fellow magicians is as genuine as his hatred of goi is detestable.

However, it seems some on the forum just thinks that "because he is a racist (specists) pig (which he is), even the good parts of his character actually bad". As if a character must either be completely white or black, god forbid an bad person with actual virtues. This is why I am surprised that the forum jumped on his comments on wanting to help magician children (and by extention Yamu and loli Magi) who might be being mistreated and exploited in their home nations as they speak. Yet the interopetation is overwhelmingly "LOOK AT THE ARROGANT OLD MAN WHO presumes he knows better than Loli Magi", ignoring that he is also talking about Magician children all over the world.
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Old 2012-11-15, 01:27   Link #607
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No one has said "everything Magoshuatt does is wrong".

No one has said "character must either be completely white or black"

No one has denied "Hogwarts system cannot be improved".

You throw out accusation of "putting words in my mouth", yet you create these unopposing arguments and pretend you're just being misunderstood. Do you not notice the hypocracy there?

Also, none of the above has anything to do with "Magomett should recieve what's coming to him".

Quote:
I read marvel's comment about "eating humble pie", and comments that "blow up the system" as people who just
Those comments are from different people, on completely different topic.
By throwing them together and only countering the latter, you are doing exactly what you are accusings others of doing. See above.

You have done more twisting of words in the last two posts than this entire thread, man.
All the while protesting that you're victim of such practice.

Dude is a bad man. He does not know his own evil.
His "good" in him will help him redeem himself. But first, spanking is coming.
What you're saying is like "the kid isn't all bad, he doesn't deserve spanking for burning the cat alive!". Oh no, yes he does goddamnit.
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Old 2012-11-15, 01:32   Link #608
Rainrir
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
No one has said "everything Magoshuatt does is wrong".

No one has said "character must either be completely white or black"

No one has denied "Hogwarts system cannot be improved".
My past posts are to show you that I am not really pro-Moganett. Do not link it to unrelated arguments. And more importantly, there is an element of "everything Moganett does is wrong" in some of the poster's attitude. As seen by what I said below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainrir
However, it seems some on the forum just thinks that "because he is a racist (specists) pig (which he is), even the good parts of his character actually bad". As if a character must either be completely white or black, god forbid an bad person with actual virtues. This is why I am surprised that the forum jumped on his comments on wanting to help magician children (and by extention Yamu and loli Magi) who might be being mistreated and exploited in their home nations as they speak. Yet the interpetation is overwhelmingly "LOOK AT THE ARROGANT OLD MAN WHO presumes he knows better than Loli Magi", ignoring that he is also talking about Magician children all over the world.
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Those comments are from different people, on completely different topic.
By throwing them together and only countering the latter, you are doing exactly what you are accusings others of doing. See above.
These are comments of similiar nature, most focusing on the retributive desire against injustice, be it the system itself or the person who put the system in place.

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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
You throw out accusation of "putting words in my mouth", yet you create these unopposing arguments and pretend you're just being misunderstood. Do you not notice the hypocracy there?

Also, none of the above has anything to do with "Magomett should recieve what's coming to him".

You have done more twisting of words in the last two posts than this entire thread, man.
I did nothing of that sort. I twisted nothing and I had been consistent, what is it with you and continually asserting that I twists my own words? It is not like I win a prize for doing so. Why must it be that the person who disagrees with you must be some kind of master manipulator that is trying to be hypocritical?
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Old 2012-11-15, 01:39   Link #609
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You keep assuming one extreme to another. You say gray, but your own view is if it's not white, then it must be black.
If they think he's bad, they must not see any good in him! etc. You're assuming everyone else is blind.

If you can't see the blaringly obvious act of what you did, then oh well... I'm out of words.
Your reasoning is actually a lot like Mogamett, tbh.
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Old 2012-11-15, 01:44   Link #610
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You keep assuming one extreme to another. You say gray, but your own view is if it's not white, then it must be black.
If they think he's bad, they must not see any good in him! etc. You're assuming everyone else is blind.
Pointing out certain posters have black/white views does not make the person himself black/white. My observation is that the discussion here overwhelmingly tends towards Moganett is "black", even when he sometimes have "purely good" intentions (towards the magicians)..which is read as hurbris instead of genuine concern. Additionally, it seems there is a undercurrent of wanting only retributive justice done on Moganett.

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If you can't see the blaringly obvious act of what you did, then oh well... I'm out of words.
Your reasoning is actually a lot like Mogamett, tbh.
Really? I should put on my wizard hat and cape....
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Old 2012-11-15, 01:47   Link #611
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Really? I should put on my wizard hat and cape....
LOL!

Not the racist part of course, I wouldn't dare accuse you of such.
Just the reasoning portion and mirroring nature.

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Originally Posted by Rainrir View Post
Pointing out certain posters have black/white views does not make the person himself black/white. My observation is that the discussion here overwhelmingly tends towards Moganett is "black", even when he sometimes have "purely good" intentions (towards the magicians). Additionally, it seems there is a undercurrent of wanting only retributive justice done on Moganett.
See, that's the problem! You seem to be assuming that "why can't others see what I see!" when we all freakin' do.
We're not stupid. We know his motives. We know why he does it. We know he loves his people. But they do not excuse anything.
No one's denying he has some good in him, hell, Adolf Hitler had some good in him, doesn't mean he's excusable.
Whatever that's good in him will come in play when he redeems himself. But first, spanking is in order.

He can redeem himself later. Whatever. But as a rule of thumb, what he did DOES need retribution.
You do realize if you were the author of this series, you probably would have Magi canned long ago for boring the crap out of readers.

Edit: If it's any consolation, if I was the writer, I'm sure the outcome would be similar.
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Old 2012-11-15, 02:04   Link #612
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See, that's the problem! You seem to be assuming that "why can't others see what I see!" when we all freakin' do.
We're not stupid. We know his motives. We know why he does it. We know he loves his people. But they do not excuse anything.
No one's denying he has some good in him, hell, Adolf Hitler had some good in him, doesn't mean he's excusable.
Whatever that's good in him will come in play when he redeems himself. But first, spanking is in order.
That is not the impression I see here, since you know it is not stated anywhere. You can't assume that I know that you (or anyone else) know. It is not always obvious on the forums or in written form about unspoken assumptions, you can only see what is actually written.

His reasons make doesn't make it excusable, but it makes it understandable and still based in some kind of logic. Yet I see the words "DUMB-ledore" being tossed around like its free, and that some people seem to twist his "genuine concern" into "arrogance", this really doesn't make it look like some people considered his side.

Again, I must point out that I never found Adolf Hilter comparison very appropriate. This is also why I stated (all this time) that we shouldn't call Moganett's system "Nazi" because it is such a thought terminating cliche.

As I said before, while I am not opposed to spanking, spanking is optional and can be skipped if he redeems himself before that.

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You do realize if you were the author of this series, you probably would have Magi canned long ago for boring the crap out of readers.
That will be questionable, since you don't actually know what I do for a living. In any case, that the "character arc" argument is long and boring doesn't necessarily means its execution would be. However, I would admit that if I write, it probably be doorstoppers that do not sell at all.
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Old 2012-11-15, 02:10   Link #613
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That is not the impression I see here, since you know it is not stated anywhere. You can't assume that I know that you (or anyone else) know. It is not always obvious on the forums or in written form about unspoken assumptions, you can only see what is actually written.
Because, those were the major points of discussion for the past couple of months?

Quote:
His reasons make doesn't make it excusable, but it makes it understandable and still based in some kind of logic. Yet I see the words "DUMB-ledore" being tossed around like its free, it really doesn't make it look like some people considered his side.
Shoe. They fit.

Quote:
Again, I must point out that I never found Adolf Hilter comparison very appropriate. This is also why I stated (all this time) that we shouldn't call Moganett's system "Nazi" because it is such a thought terminating cliche.
It doesn't matter if it's Hitler, or Stalin, or whatever other figures that did atrocities but had some good intention in their heart. The name does not matter.

Quote:
As I said before, while I am not opposed to spanking, spanking is optional and can be skipped if he redeems himself before that.

That will be questionable, since you don't actually know what I do for a living. In any case, that the "character arc" argument is long and boring doesn't necessarily means its execution would be. However, I would admit that if I write, it probably be doorstoppers that do not sell at all.
No, I'm talking about the "we don't need retribution" part.
The author is very sensitive to her rankings, and has expilicitly said she checks the ranking every week to make sure she's on the right track. If she just did a "oh, this person did such despicable acts but he's understanding and no retribution will come his way", you will have millions of dissapointed teenage readership she can't afford to lose.

And I'll upp you on that, if I wrote, it'd be a dumbbell that sank to the bottom of the river.
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Old 2012-11-15, 02:16   Link #614
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Because, those were the major points of discussion for the past couple of months?
I have been lurking for a while, the impression I get is that people who argue the mitigating factors get sidelined, not replied to (or because they never show up again afterwards).

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It doesn't matter if it's Hitler, or Stalin, or whatever other figures that did atrocities but had some good intention in their heart. The name does not matter.
Well, I think it matters, because it makes people associate one with the other, rightly or wrongly. Plus, I don't really think anything Hitler or Stalin did is remotely close to whatever good intent Moganett has. Which is why most people (elsewhere) identify his closest parallel is the fictional Magneto.

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Shoe. They fit.
Not really a complete fit in my opinion. However, since it is a opinion, then so be it.

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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
No, I'm talking about the "we don't need retribution" part.
The author is very sensitive to her rankings, and has expilicitly said she checks the ranking every week to make sure she's on the right track. If she just did a "oh, this person did such despicable acts but he's understanding and no retribution will come his way", you will have millions of dissapointed teenage readership she can't afford to lose.
Well yeah, Ohtaka is sometimes too obessed with the rankings. However, whether the lack of a "spanking" (which I take to be physical) can be swallowed well at all will totally depend on how she writes it. It is totally possible for her to go for a route that gives the readership an satisfying conclusion to Morganett without a spanking, that all depends on her skill as a writer.

Again, I can't presume to know how much skill Ohtaka has, what qualifies as "skill" or what she feels is the best way to go. Of course, I am merely arguing a hypothetical that she can do it that way if she writes it satisfyingly. Plus, Sunday does have a decently large percentage of above-15 readership (compared to Jump which basically have majority below-15 readership).

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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
And I'll upp you on that, if I wrote, it'd be a dumbbell that sank to the bottom of the river.
Implying your book will be printed on good quality paper that can survive a trip down to the river bed? Mine probably would fragment the moment it touches water (lousy paper quality).

Last edited by Rainrir; 2012-11-15 at 02:27.
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Old 2012-11-15, 02:26   Link #615
aohige
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Btw, this argument is a mirror of 2ch Magi manga thread (which is hell of a lot more civil compared to other Weekly shounen threads), pretty much exactly the same argument on both sides.

The only difference is, since it's not an international forum, a lot more.. straight forward social comparison is sometimes made (since there's no one to offend. )

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Originally Posted by Rainrir View Post
Well, I think it matters, because it makes people associate one with the other, rightly or wrongly. Plus, I don't really think anything Hitler or Stalin did is remotely close to whatever good intent Moganett has. Which is why most people (elsewhere) identify his closest parallel is the fictional Magneto.
I think Magneto and Mogamett shares the same reference, to be honest.
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Old 2012-11-15, 02:30   Link #616
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Btw, this argument is a mirror of 2ch Magi manga thread (which is hell of a lot more civil compared to other Weekly shounen threads), pretty much exactly the same argument on both sides.

The only difference is, since it's not an international forum, a lot more indepth social comparison is sometimes made (since there's no one to offend. )
I am sure no one on 2ch makes an argument that the Goi are like the Eta, Hinin and other outcaste of the Tokugawa Era, an permanent underclass that is segregated in an area, viewed as animals by the rest, living in horrid conditions but still perform vital roles to support that society. Not to mention the degree of socio-political control they face to keep them down and obedient (I didn't see any when I dropped by 2ch).
Spoiler:
Japanese (on 2ch) are generally bad at looking at themselves, this is my observation. However, I am sure they had a field day with other non-Japanese societies, which they really have no qualms when it comes to tearing into them.

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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
I think Magneto and Mogamett shares the same reference, to be honest.
I know. However, I really dread actually naming those groups. I feel compelled to even have to "*" out most of the syllables so they are not so obvious to people who are not fully paying attention. Talking about them is really just gonna attract flame bait.

Last edited by Rainrir; 2012-11-15 at 02:44.
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Old 2012-11-15, 12:03   Link #617
marvelB
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Originally Posted by Rainrir View Post
Except even TinTin has a level of realism behind it (starting with the TT& the Blue Lotus)
I.... never denied that. I also enjoy the fact that Tintin has its share of real-world inspiration. Heck, I even find it highly amusing that Tintin is even good buddies with a military dictator (General Alcazar)!


But my point was that despite all of the geopolitical themes present in many Tintin stories, it's still very much a pulp adventure series. Herge doesn't ignore the forest for the trees and just made a bunch of fun comics for everyone to enjoy! And the same can be said for people like Ohtaka or Oda for Magi and OP, respectively. That is not a bad thing at all, nor did I ever insinuate that it was.


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Originally Posted by Rainrir View Post
Frankly, Magi already show that it doesn't want to take shounen-eque answers to complex problems (aka punch it till it works). This is already shown in the Balbadd arc. Ohtaka is obvious trying to show that the Magoshuatt problem is a complex one.


FYI, Balbadd is my favorite arc, too. And while I don't (nor did I ever) deny that it had a more complex theme, it's still not THAT deep. I mean, let's not forget that we still had people using magical weapons and whatnot in this war (and there's kind of the whole thing with Alibaba's surrogate brother literally transforming into a demon). Again, I do want to stress that I enjoyed the fact that the conflict wasn't as simple as "beat the bad guy and everyone is happy", but that still doesn't change the fact that it's still a part of a serial pulp story. And for the umpteenth time, I do not see why that has to be a bad thing.



And for the record, please don't say that I prefer my shonen fighting mangas to be more like the current Naruto and Bleach. My opinion of those particular two series is..... not very favorable, to say the least. At least use examples like Jojo or Hunter x Hunter or something (which ironically, both tend to have battles more complex than "punch the bad guy 'til you win (not that I mind a good brawler series too, every now and then, heh))......
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Old 2012-11-15, 13:18   Link #618
Starshipw
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
I don't mind Aladdin advising them, but he shouldn't take charge of it.
It comepletely goes against his character through out the entire series, not to mention his role.

Merlin should never outshine Arthur.
Except he does whenever it comes to magical conflicts. Whether it is the ancient legends, Mary Stewart's Merlin trilogy, or the current TV show, Merlin spends a majority of his time off fighting magical beings and wizards and smoothing Arthur's path in ways mostly incomprehensible to his king candidate. The muggle Prime Minister has no say in the operation of Hogwarts and Dumbledore does not interfere with muggles unless wizards are killing them. So in a land ruled by magicians I would not expect Alibaba to have much input unless they start a war. This is Aladdin's wizard problem. Alibaba has his own country needing reformed.
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Old 2012-11-15, 13:31   Link #619
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I'm wondering if the author will switch next chapter to Alibaba. I'm really curious about his growth

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Old 2012-11-15, 13:45   Link #620
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
And for the record, please don't say that I prefer my shonen fighting mangas to be more like the current Naruto and Bleach. My opinion of those particular two series is..... not very favorable, to say the least. At least use examples like Jojo or Hunter x Hunter or something (which ironically, both tend to have battles more complex than "punch the bad guy 'til you win (not that I mind a good brawler series too, every now and then, heh))......
It's true! He reads Kongou Banchou! There's little to no "Punch to the face resolution" in that manga...I promise!!!
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