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Old 2012-11-14, 23:35   Link #861
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
built on false pretenses.
There's not false pretenses in this ending. Homura was very forthcoming about what she knows. All the girls knows the ricks, but they still chose to hope for the better. That's like the freaking point.
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Old 2012-11-15, 00:20   Link #862
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
There's not false pretenses in this ending. Homura was very forthcoming about what she knows. All the girls knows the ricks, but they still chose to hope for the better. That's like the freaking point.
They would definitely become witches. Or get killed by one. The odds are just so big. You think Kyubey the Manipulator would let them dandy and happy like that? Remember the girls in Kazumi Madoka? I remember it is implied somewhere that eventually all magical girls will become witches, as just even walking everyday consume their magical energy.

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Optimists are just people that are clever enough to see a solution to any given problem, pessimists are those who aren't.
And allow me to add, in this case, they think they see a solution to a problem that basically screams "YOU LOSE". It's neither optimistic or pessimistic, I would call it delusional

That happy ending is just weaker in theme, and mostly an "earned your happy ending" deus ex machina for Homura. It did not address everything as good as the anime ending.
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Old 2012-11-15, 00:31   Link #863
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They would definitely become witches
I don't think so, but it doesn't matter. Did you even read the whole discussion?

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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
I remember it is implied somewhere that eventually all magical girls will become witches, as just even walking everyday consume their magical energy.
No one ever said such a thing as far as I know. But again, it's not the point.
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Old 2012-11-15, 00:55   Link #864
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
There's not false pretenses in this ending. Homura was very forthcoming about what she knows. All the girls knows the ricks, but they still chose to hope for the better. That's like the freaking point.
That's not at all what I'm referring to, Kazu, and I'm pretty sure you know that. I consider it false pretenses because I see no compelling reason to think that the main issue (Madoka contracting) has been dodged. She won't do it now, but what happens when Tatsuya gets hit by a car? What if a third world war breaks out?

Madoka has the power of a God, and an Incubator constantly reminds her that she can fix any problem. To think she can resist this temptation forever is preposterous, especially given Madoka's personality.

Without sufficient reason to believe she would resist this, it's entirely a handwave to make the ending work.
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Old 2012-11-15, 01:02   Link #865
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
What if a third world war breaks out?
What if it doesn't? The point is that neither us nor Homura and others know what will happen in the future. Homura hopes for the better, hopes that Madoka won't contract. And who knows, maybe she won't.
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Old 2012-11-15, 01:31   Link #866
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
That's not at all what I'm referring to, Kazu, and I'm pretty sure you know that.
Should Walpurgis Night be overcome without Madoka needing to contract as a Puella Magi, it's quite conceivable that Madoka might never become a Puella Magi.

Kyubey himself states that he only contracts with teenage girls. Now, it's conceivable that he could contract with men, women, and teenage boys, but there's no evidence of this. At the very least, it seems likely that Kyubey greatly prefers contracting with teenage girls rather than any other age/gender demographic group, and I'm inclined to think there's some good reason for this (perhaps people really do lose their magical potential once they reach adulthood).

Taking all of the above into consideration, Madoka might merely need to reach adulthood without contracting. At that point, Kyubey may conceivably give up on her forever. It's not all that improbable for a teenage girl to go a few years without facing a personal or global tragedy that would prompt her to sacrifice her life for the sake of others.

So I wouldn't say that Homura's ending is all "false hope" here. Actually, I think you insult the very point of this ending by arguing that. Homura's ending is naturally all about Homura succeeding. Madoka not contracting is the very point of that. What's so wrong in one AU ending of PMMM actually having Homura succeed?


That's not to say you (or anybody else) has to like Homura's ending though. Is it better for Madoka to enjoy a full, normal, happy human life as Homura wants, or is it better for Madoka to sacrifice that life for the sake of Puella Magi throughout the whole of human history? I can certainly understand people thinking that the latter is preferable. Nonetheless, I find it nice to see an ending where Homura succeeds in her mission.
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Old 2012-11-15, 05:35   Link #867
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What if it doesn't? The point is that neither us nor Homura and others know what will happen in the future. Homura hopes for the better, hopes that Madoka won't contract. And who knows, maybe she won't.
I was deliberately giving an egregious example to establish the point that Madoka has demonstrated herself to be a martyr without a cause. She wants to be useful, and Homura's ending doesn't provide this need for her. She has all the power, so she might conclude she has all the responsibility. She could save the world....she really could, for all she knows. Over the years, how much will that gnaw at her?

You're right, Homura and the rest don't now what will happen in the future, but we know enough that I don't hold high hopes for them. Madoka is a person who is not adept at living with her hands folded. She'll throw her life away for a CAT.

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Taking all of the above into consideration, Madoka might merely need to reach adulthood without contracting. At that point, Kyubey may conceivably give up on her forever. It's not all that improbable for a teenage girl to go a few years without facing a personal or global tragedy that would prompt her to sacrifice her life for the sake of others.
My one problem here is that Madoka is a truly unprecedented case for Kyubey. It's possible all that power will become irrelevant on her 20th birthday, or something, but I don't particularly think so. What's one more Mary Sue God Mode trade? :P

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That's not to say you (or anybody else) has to like Homura's ending though. Is it better for Madoka to enjoy a full, normal, happy human life as Homura wants, or is it better for Madoka to sacrifice that life for the sake of Puella Magi throughout the whole of human history? I can certainly understand people thinking that the latter is preferable. Nonetheless, I find it nice to see an ending where Homura succeeds in her mission.
I like the ending just fine! I like it a lot, and I'd like to think Homura really succeeded.

But my rational mind just doesn't buy it. My disbelief is not suspended. It feels like an asspull.
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Old 2012-11-15, 10:25   Link #868
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kyubei should not mind contracting with anyone as long as that being has got magic potential, so the risk of madoa contracting will always be there, we already got proof on non humans contracting as well as mahou "shoujo" who are well over 20 years old.
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Old 2012-11-15, 10:39   Link #869
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You're right, Homura and the rest don't now what will happen in the future, but we know enough that I don't hold high hopes for them. Madoka is a person who is not adept at living with her hands folded. She'll throw her life away for a CAT.
The Madoka who threw her life away for a cat is an ignorant Madoka who knew nothing about the magical girl system or the suffering all the other girls had to endure. This Madoka is different. She knows better. She may contract some day or she may not, but if she does, it will be for a really important reason.

Anyway, let's agree to disagree. I personally don't need guarantees. I like this ending's uncertain feeling. It fits the theme I think.
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Old 2012-11-15, 11:10   Link #870
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
My one problem here is that Madoka is a truly unprecedented case for Kyubey. It's possible all that power will become irrelevant on her 20th birthday, or something, but I don't particularly think so.
Why not?

It's not that difficult a concept to buy into, imo. In real life, people generally lose much of their athletic ability sometime in their 30s (this is why a very small percentage of pro sports players are 40 or older).

So I don't see anything that hard to believe about the notion that magical potential erodes with age.

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I like the ending just fine! I like it a lot, and I'd like to think Homura really succeeded.

But my rational mind just doesn't buy it. My disbelief is not suspended. It feels like an asspull.
The idea that the girls could be aware of magical girls turning into witches, and yet not despair and/or snap over that, is admittedly hard to believe (especially after Mami's moment in Timeline 3...).

But Madoka not becoming a Puella Magi? I can buy that.


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kyubei should not mind contracting with anyone as long as that being has got magic potential,
Then why are virtually all the "magical humans" of PMMM-verse teenage girls? Kyubey himself gave a reason why, and I'm not sure why we shouldn't take him at his word here. While Kyubey's known to be deceitful, he rarely tells complete falsehoods (he tends to tell half-truths rather than outright lies).


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so the risk of madoa contracting will always be there, we already got proof on non humans contracting as well as mahou "shoujo" who are well over 20 years old.
Did those magical girls contract after the age of 20, or did they contract as teenagers and simply last into their 20s?

I'm presuming this is something that came up in Kazumi Magica, so this isn't something I know about myself.
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Old 2012-11-15, 16:20   Link #871
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Why not?

It's not that difficult a concept to buy into, imo. In real life, people generally lose much of their athletic ability sometime in their 30s (this is why a very small percentage of pro sports players are 40 or older).

So I don't see anything that hard to believe about the notion that magical potential erodes with age.
Because not even Kyubey understands how magic works and Madoka is full of exceptions that boggles his mind. The usual standards can't be taken for granted when it comes to her.

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The idea that the girls could be aware of magical girls turning into witches, and yet not despair and/or snap over that, is admittedly hard to believe (especially after Mami's moment in Timeline 3...).

But Madoka not becoming a Puella Magi? I can buy that.
I honestly can't. Not unless she finds something that becomes just as meaningful and productive to the world at large. Again, she's kind of screwed if, like, Tatsuya has an inoperable brain tumor at the age of 5 or something. Or if the sun starts to go supernova. Or if someone is being mugged right infront of her and stabbed in the vitals, and 911 can't respond in time to save the person's life.

Madoka's sense of empathy and personal responsibility is too high for her own good. It's the reason why Homura's mission has taken as long as it did; she keeps throwing herself into this even when she knows the consequences because she feels her potential gives her a responsibility to help others.
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Old 2012-11-15, 16:42   Link #872
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Because not even Kyubey understands how magic works and Madoka is full of exceptions that boggles his mind.
That doesn't necessarily mean that the overwhelming gender/age demographic focus of Kyubey is one such exception, though.

You yourself admit that it's possible that Madoka's magical potential will fade with age, which would logically mean that Kyubey's interest in her will wane.

So that alone means it's possible that the ending we're discussing is not all "false hope". Maybe it really does indicate that Homura has succeeded in preventing Madoka from ever contradicting as a Puella Magi.


Something else that should be kept in mind here - Some people believe that Madoka felt great guilt during Episode 4 because she couldn't bring herself to wish Mami back to life (that's the most logical explanation for the guilt that Madoka expresses when confronted by the TV-Witch, imo). And that Madoka wasn't even aware that magical girls could turn into witches; Madoka was simply scared due to having seen how Puella Magi can endure gruesome deaths in "the line of duty".

So I don't think that Madoka is entirely without a sense of self-preservation.
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Old 2012-11-15, 17:58   Link #873
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Madoka's sense of empathy and personal responsibility is too high for her own good. It's the reason why Homura's mission has taken as long as it did; she keeps throwing herself into this even when she knows the consequences because she feels her potential gives her a responsibility to help others.
She only really knew the consequences at the end of the series, and at that time she only contracted because QB convinced her that under the current system there was no hope for the magical girls (which isn't entirely true). Every time Madoka contracted in previous timelines, or when she tried to contract in the anime before the end, she didn't know all the consequences.

Madoka is a very empathic person, but I strongly disagree she would throw away her life so easily.
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Old 2012-11-15, 21:31   Link #874
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Why not?

Then why are virtually all the "magical humans" of PMMM-verse teenage girls? Kyubey himself gave a reason why, and I'm not sure why we shouldn't take him at his word here. While Kyubey's known to be deceitful, he rarely tells complete falsehoods (he tends to tell half-truths rather than outright lies).




Did those magical girls contract after the age of 20, or did they contract as teenagers and simply last into their 20s?

I'm presuming this is something that came up in Kazumi Magica, so this isn't something I know about myself.
Spoiler for kazumi magica:


Spoiler for madoka anime and suplementary materials:
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Old 2012-11-15, 22:06   Link #875
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That doesn't necessarily mean that the overwhelming gender/age demographic focus of Kyubey is one such exception, though.

You yourself admit that it's possible that Madoka's magical potential will fade with age, which would logically mean that Kyubey's interest in her will wane.

So that alone means it's possible that the ending we're discussing is not all "false hope". Maybe it really does indicate that Homura has succeeded in preventing Madoka from ever contradicting as a Puella Magi.
You're right. I'm just saying I'm not personally convinced because how the actual ending was earned in the narrative seems way too goddamn easy. It basically boils down to "Man, if Homura just told the truth everyone would've believed her", basically.

Also, even if we assume for the sake of argument that the cutoff point is Madoka's 20th birthday, that's still six years.

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Something else that should be kept in mind here - Some people believe that Madoka felt great guilt during Episode 4 because she couldn't bring herself to wish Mami back to life (that's the most logical explanation for the guilt that Madoka expresses when confronted by the TV-Witch, imo). And that Madoka wasn't even aware that magical girls could turn into witches; Madoka was simply scared due to having seen how Puella Magi can endure gruesome deaths in "the line of duty".

So I don't think that Madoka is entirely without a sense of self-preservation.
In fairness, here, Madoka was still freshly shell-shocked about seeing someone die right in front of her, and then other things started happening. It's not entirely comparable to when she wished for power to defeat Walpurgis.

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She only really knew the consequences at the end of the series, and at that time she only contracted because QB convinced her that under the current system there was no hope for the magical girls (which isn't entirely true). Every time Madoka contracted in previous timelines, or when she tried to contract in the anime before the end, she didn't know all the consequences.

Madoka is a very empathic person, but I strongly disagree she would throw away her life so easily.
That's not something we can really say with 100% certainty. Even if we only look at the timelines we were shown on-screen, we don't know what she knew in Timeline 4, for instance.

I'm inclined to agree with you on this point, but even when she knew all the consequences in the main timeline, she WOULD have wished to return Sayaka to normal if Homura didn't do something.
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Old 2012-11-15, 22:16   Link #876
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but even when she knew all the consequences in the main timeline, she WOULD have wished to return Sayaka to normal if Homura didn't do something.
Didn't that happen in episode 8? A that time she didn't know anything yet IIRC.
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Old 2012-11-15, 22:41   Link #877
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@maximilianjenus - Thanks for the info.


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You're right. I'm just saying I'm not personally convinced because how the actual ending was earned in the narrative seems way too goddamn easy. It basically boils down to "Man, if Homura just told the truth everyone would've believed her", basically.
Well, in fairness to Homura, that's what she tried in Timeline 3, and it didn't work. So it makes some sense that Homura would try a different approach in Timeline 5.

However, just because this approach failed in Timeline 3 doesn't mean every attempt at it would have failed.


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In fairness, here, Madoka was still freshly shell-shocked about seeing someone die right in front of her, and then other things started happening. It's not entirely comparable to when she wished for power to defeat Walpurgis.
True, but my point is that I think there's a limit to what Madoka is willing to endanger herself for and/or sacrifice herself for.

Madoka wouldn't do it for Mami... but she would do it for Sayaka, as you correctly pointed out. I think these two instances do a good job of demonstrating exactly where "the line" is for Madoka.

What I take from this: Madoka isn't likely to throw her life away for somebody she barely knows, even if her initial impression of that person is very positive (this summing up Mami well).

But there are, I think, a handful of specific people that Madoka would sacrifice herself for. Her parents, her brother, Sayaka, and maybe Hitomi. Basically, her immediate family and her two best friends. Aside from that, sheer numbers will motivate Madoka (i.e. her entire city being in danger, or vast unknown numbers of Puella Magi needing help).

So yeah, I'll say that Madoka never contracting as a Puella Magi probably depends on her family, her two closest friends, and her city, never being grievously endangered beyond what other Puella Magi can help. So yes, Madoka needs to get pretty lucky here, I won't deny that.

But it's possible, so I say let the Homura fans enjoy the Homura ending.
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Old 2012-11-15, 23:19   Link #878
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At least Madoka's wish indirectly saved Mami.
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Old 2012-11-16, 01:49   Link #879
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Didn't that happen in episode 8? A that time she didn't know anything yet IIRC.
She knew at that point that Magical Girls become Witches.

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Well, in fairness to Homura, that's what she tried in Timeline 3, and it didn't work. So it makes some sense that Homura would try a different approach in Timeline 5.

However, just because this approach failed in Timeline 3 doesn't mean every attempt at it would have failed.
Um...exactly? Having played that route I see no real reason why it was more successful that time. It's an asspull.

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But it's possible, so I say let the Homura fans enjoy the Homura ending.
Indeed, and I said as much. Kazu insists on having this argument multiple times, however.
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Old 2012-11-16, 14:29   Link #880
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She knew at that point that Magical Girls become Witches.
No, she learned about that in episode 9, when Sayaka was already a witch, and that's when she started to seriously consider the real consequences of becoming a magical girl.

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Indeed, and I said as much. Kazu insists on having this argument multiple times, however.
It was you not me. Let's end here if you want.
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