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Old 2012-11-13, 21:14   Link #461
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandering_Youth View Post
Does Covering Fire + Sentinel allow a support to fire twice at an enemy?
Sentinel's main job is not to shoot twice at an enemy but to shoot a different enemy. The idea is that you need to be able to shoot the 2nd alien after the first alien dies.

Cover fire doesn't work well because you are better off just shooting an alien you see rather than going into overwatch. Overwatch carries an accuracy penalty, so if you can shoot the alien then just shoot.

And further, Sprinter is TOO GOOD a skill. I can't do without it, and frankly it is the main reason I use Offensive Supports. Losing that skill isn't worth it.

Quote:
The assault charges in while dodging enemy overwatch the support spots the enemy firing then proccedes to fire on said alien twice with the Sentinel + Covering fire abilities. I wish Covering Firing would negate the aim penalty which would give it more incentive to use it.
In your scenario it is better to just have your Support fire normally, followed by the Assault charging in to kill any survivors. Overwatch is only good for one thing; when you can't see any aliens in your vision and you want to end your turn. Never go into Overwatch while there are still aliens you can shoot at.
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Old 2012-11-13, 23:07   Link #462
Jazzrat
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Join Date: Jun 2004
I normally use a 2 assault, 2 support, 1 heavy, 1 sniper team.

Support build is
Sprinter (the added mobility means you can reach full cover better than anyone else)
Medic ( 6x 10 hp heal at endgame helps more than the extra smoke grenade for me, especially in long fights)
Rifle Suppression (they are my main suppressor instead of heavy which is focused on demolition of cover or AoE dmg)
Dense Smoke (i use smoke grenade as a uh-oh skill, give whoever that's underfire the extra def to survive)
Savior ( extra heal, Sentinel is nice but not critical enough for the upgrade since Support can only use Plasma Rifle at most and overwatch can't crit)

I don't know about Dense Smoke triggering grenade atleast so far i havent seen it happen. I do know they have a tendency to toss it when they can hit 2 target at once but i rarely keep people close enough for that and Mutons, Heavy Floaters and Muton Elite are usually high on the KOS priority list.
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Old 2012-11-13, 23:11   Link #463
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Join Date: Nov 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post
I don't know about Dense Smoke triggering grenade atleast so far i havent seen it happen. I do know they have a tendency to toss it when they can hit 2 target at once but i rarely keep people close enough for that and Mutons, Heavy Floaters and Muton Elite are usually high on the KOS priority list.
Basically if the dense smoke made the chance to hit drop to zero, Mutons would go for grenades by default.
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Old 2012-11-14, 00:55   Link #464
Wandering_Youth
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I've never actually seen the enemy throw a grenade at a single unit in full cover, smoke, or full cover + smoke. How can hit chance be zero for the aliens when they got such high accuracy to begin with and I thought max cover is only 40 and can't go any higher. What level difficulty does this tactic appear on?

The only time aliens throw grenades is when my soldiers are clustered too close to each other.
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Old 2012-11-14, 01:54   Link #465
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Join Date: Nov 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandering_Youth View Post
I've never actually seen the enemy throw a grenade at a single unit in full cover, smoke, or full cover + smoke. How can hit chance be zero for the aliens when they got such high accuracy to begin with and I thought max cover is only 40 and can't go any higher. What level difficulty does this tactic appear on?

The only time aliens throw grenades is when my soldiers are clustered too close to each other.
Full Cover 40 + Hunker Down 40 + Dense smoke 40 + Ghost Armour 20 = Complete immunity to being shot = Grenade to the face.

(Hunker Down doubles your Cover bonus, so if you are in low cover you get +20 and +40 with high cover.)

And that's not counting telekinetic field's +40.
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Old 2012-11-14, 02:29   Link #466
Jazzrat
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Makes sense why I don't see that happen since I rarely stack that much DEF modifier.
On my current classic playthrough, I only hunker down if it's not in Full Cover or I know he's going to be focused on by multiple target.

And Dense Smoke grenade are reserved for bad situation with no Full Covers around.

Also not using Ghost Armor yet. Still unsure if i even want to cause it felt a bit too OP compare to others.
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Old 2012-11-14, 10:55   Link #467
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post
MAlso not using Ghost Armor yet. Still unsure if i even want to cause it felt a bit too OP compare to others.
On Impossible difficulty all aliens got +20 aim, so ghost armour only cancels that out with +20 defence. It depends on what you think is or isn't fair.
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Old 2012-11-14, 14:30   Link #468
SoldierOfDarkness
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
On Impossible difficulty all aliens got +20 aim, so ghost armour only cancels that out with +20 defence. It depends on what you think is or isn't fair.
Which against the aliens means nothing. Went with Ghost armour on Classic and all of my guys despite haveing +40 defence and on high ground all got slaugthered by the aliens and couldn't even hit them back.

When I went back to Archangel armour, I literally wiped the floor with them by striking first. Which gives +20 defence AND elevation and accuracy bonuses.

Equipping an Assault trooper + Archangel Armour + flight + alloy cannon + rapid fire + scope = deadly mid-range assault trooper.
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Old 2012-11-14, 14:37   Link #469
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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How does Archangel help you strike first?

I use Ghost Armour for the +100% crit. And anyway it is never a good idea to trade blows against aliens on higher difficulties. Either charge in and kill them immediately, or back off and let them walk into a trap. Staying still and fight is always bad.
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Old 2012-11-14, 15:21   Link #470
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
How does Archangel help you strike first?

I use Ghost Armour for the +100% crit. And anyway it is never a good idea to trade blows against aliens on higher difficulties. Either charge in and kill them immediately, or back off and let them walk into a trap. Staying still and fight is always bad.
Because you can maintain a distance and still actually hit the damn aliens when they first appear which goes with your charge in and kill immediately.

With ghost armour, you run the risk of getting too close which leads to more aliens and then you find yourself in a jam. Plus you can't hit the aliens even with cloak and such. 100% is useless unless your guaranteed a hit.

And then if you try to wait for the aliens to come closer, they still can hit you even with the higher defence. I was pissed off when a muton across the map scored a direct critical hit on my support that had +40 defence. The rest of my guys fell after. None of them could score a hit and the closer they tried getting, the more aliens that appeared.
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Old 2012-11-14, 17:56   Link #471
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Join Date: Nov 2004
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Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
And then if you try to wait for the aliens to come closer, they still can hit you even with the higher defence. I was pissed off when a muton across the map scored a direct critical hit on my support that had +40 defence. The rest of my guys fell after. None of them could score a hit and the closer they tried getting, the more aliens that appeared.
That can be avoided by making sure the alien is within 4 squares of your troops when they are detected.

You are not suppose to play a sniping game against high difficulty enemies, as they will always win in accuracy. You are meant to arrange your soldiers so that when the alien exit the doorway or turned the corner, your troops are at 80+% chance to hit with overwatch.

Never assume the alien would miss. The best defence is to never let them fire a single shot.
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Old 2012-11-14, 23:56   Link #472
DragoonKain3
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What VCV said. You aren't going to win a 'fair' firefight against the enemy in impossible. Either you get up close and personal so you have high accuracy, or have one scout ahead, and if they run into the enemy the scout dashes back in range of your entire team's overwatch fire.

And for first strike purposes, +2 mov and essentially it being a one-shit kill with stealth is more useful than +20 aim from higher elevation.

Finally, sometimes the computer doesn't really give a damn and just send you wave after wave of enemies, REGARDLESS of what you do. Apart from the one I mentioned before, another was when an abductor (was it called that?) ship landed and the first group I met were 2 Outsiders (and they weren't even in the bridge!)... who proceeded to call Heavy Floater, Heavy Floater, then Sectopod groups one turn after the other without me advancing even one step.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandering_Youth View Post
What skills do you assign to your Support soldiers. I'm still trying to figure what's best for a Support and I would like some opinions.
Sprinter - movement is just too good to pass up. Covering Fire sucks because it doesn't prevent you with losses, and it's either you overwatch or suppress someone who you have close to no chance of hitting, not both. And since I'm taking suppression, this is a no brainer.


Field Medic - I dunno about other people, but in my games the enemies are grenade happy, of which smoke grenades don't do anything against (and I rarely use smoke grenades in the first place, so it's not even me taking dense upgrade). Like AI is smart in that they'll blow away your cover first with nades then shoot your flanked guy up if given the chance. Or sometimes, they just lob 3 grenades in a row against your guy in indestructible cover lol. XD

And in that case, I'd rather get more heals to negate nade damage and on the off chance save someone by stabilizing. Also very darn useful on the longer missions; I dunno what I'd do without field medic in the story missions/battleship ufo crash stages when you're up against 15+ total enemies IIRC


Rifle Suppression - Revive kinda sucks tbh, as you're banking on someone to be injured rather than killed for you to even start using the skill. Suppression on supports are awesome because they lack firepower in the first place (so better to suppress than take a risk at a low hit chance shot) and that rifles have more ammo than heavy weapons (so they can sustain suppression longer than heavies). And guess what? You'd be using this skill every turn when you can't outright kill the target.

Like Heat Ammo for Heavies, Squad Sight for Snipers, and Rapid Fire for Assaults, this IMO is THE class's defining skill (and not healing or smoke grenades).


Dense Smoke - more like an 'oh shit' skill. If my support is on last turn and multiple enemies can hit a flanked unit of mine (so suppression is useless), then I'd throw this. The extra +20def is not much, but IMO better than +10 WIL and +10 crit chance. If it was +10 AIM instead though, I'd be all over Combat Drugs, but alas....


Savior - I found that my Sentinel support in my first playthrough has his 2nd shot triggered very infrequently, even with covering fire. And with my support going suppression very frequently, and Sentinel don't work with suppression, and I took field medic + sprinter, this is a no brainer.
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Old 2012-11-15, 00:57   Link #473
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Join Date: Nov 2004
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Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
Dense Smoke - more like an 'oh shit' skill. If my support is on last turn and multiple enemies can hit a flanked unit of mine (so suppression is useless), then I'd throw this. The extra +20def is not much, but IMO better than +10 WIL and +10 crit chance. If it was +10 AIM instead though, I'd be all over Combat Drugs, but alas....
http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread...s-gives-20-aim!!!

Good news... Combat Drugs doesn't give you +10 aim, it gives you +20 aim. It doesn't tell you in the skill description, but it's there when you used it when checking your soldier's bonuses with the F1 key.

So time to be all over combat drugs I guess?

(The link said that there is unconfirmed reports that Combat Drugs doesn't give you any defence bonus at all. It is hard to test because you can't see the alien's chance to hit.)
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Last edited by Vallen Chaos Valiant; 2012-11-15 at 03:06.
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Old 2012-11-15, 05:12   Link #474
Wandering_Youth
lost in wonder forever...
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Aww man, now I got to get rid of my supports and train a new batch...dang it. Is this confirmed for reals because some of the guys on that forum are saying it's a typo and he's pretty confident it doesn't give Aim bonus.
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Old 2012-11-15, 10:44   Link #475
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Join Date: Nov 2004
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Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandering_Youth View Post
Aww man, now I got to get rid of my supports and train a new batch...dang it. Is this confirmed for reals because some of the guys on that forum are saying it's a typo and he's pretty confident it doesn't give Aim bonus.
Just tested it. My Heavy had 55% chance of hitting a Muton at low cover, and Combat Drugs increased the accuracy to 75%.

And the Heavy STILL gets to keep the +20 defense from the smoke grenade even though the game doesn't tell you. He was under low cover with ghost armour, giving him 20+20 defence. With Combat Drugs his defence is 60, so there is definite +20 defence from the smoke.
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Old 2012-11-15, 11:26   Link #476
SoldierOfDarkness
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
What VCV said. You aren't going to win a 'fair' firefight against the enemy in impossible. Either you get up close and personal so you have high accuracy, or have one scout ahead, and if they run into the enemy the scout dashes back in range of your entire team's overwatch fire.
Tried that on Classic and it failed miserably.

I had a support run up and see what was up then pulled back.

The enemy then started moving in and despite the fact that my entire team was in overwatch + cover they couldn't hit the side of a barn. As a result the enemy from long range ended up sniping and killing all of my guys regardless. The ghost armour was literally useless. When i tried fighting back with cloak it was useless because even up close they couldn't land a freakin shot.

I ran the same scenario with Archangel armour and due to the +20 aim they were able to kill them through overwatch and such.

Quote:

And for first strike purposes, +2 mov and essentially it being a one-shit kill with stealth is more useful than +20 aim from higher elevation.
+20 aim is needed when the AI is capable of dodging like ninjas.
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Old 2012-11-15, 11:37   Link #477
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Join Date: Nov 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
As a result the enemy from long range ended up sniping and killing all of my guys regardless.
You seem to be missing the point of what we are talking about...

NEVER let your enemy hit you from long range. Angle your troops so that they can't see you at all until they got close.

Don't let them snipe. NEVER let them snipe. They are more accurate than you. The point of trapping them isn't just to kill them by overwatch, but that you would likely have an entire turn to shoot them with rockets, double tap sniping, etc.
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Old 2012-11-15, 12:38   Link #478
SoldierOfDarkness
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: From the deepest abyss in the world, where you think?
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
You seem to be missing the point of what we are talking about...

NEVER let your enemy hit you from long range. Angle your troops so that they can't see you at all until they got close.

Don't let them snipe. NEVER let them snipe. They are more accurate than you. The point of trapping them isn't just to kill them by overwatch, but that you would likely have an entire turn to shoot them with rockets, double tap sniping, etc.
You'll have to show me a replay on youtube so I can see exactly.

My guys are all in cover and even if they're behind a door the AI is still able to hit them.

With Heavy Floaters it's pretty irrelevant because they can go anywhere they want and still snipe you anyways.
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Old 2012-11-15, 13:02   Link #479
LoweGear
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What VCV is basically saying is that your men should be positioned that the enemy can't see you at all. Don't put your men in corners, put them a tile behind or something. Better yet, retreat to a position further away and prepare an overwatch killzone. You should not be able to see your enemy, which by the same token they won't be able to see you, which allows you to dictate when and how to engage the enemy. Concealment is better than cover on Impossible.

Until you get Titan Armor on Captains armed with Plasma Weapons duking it out in a straight firefight on Impossible is an exercise in pain and misery: Don't. Cover is unreliable on Impossible, and thus you should never end your turn with your men still in view of the enemy.
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Old 2012-11-15, 13:05   Link #480
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Join Date: Nov 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
My guys are all in cover and even if they're behind a door the AI is still able to hit them.
That's the problem. You don't hide right next to the door. When you do that all the aliens in the next room can hit you.

What you do is shown in the pic; stay at the green circles and wait for the aliens to march through the door. Don't go near the red crosses as you would die.
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