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Old 2012-11-16, 19:30   Link #1141
Kirroha
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Another possible theory:

Weissman created Shiro as a puppet and possessed him to kill Tatara -> Shiro absorbs Tatara's personality after his death? -> Weissman kicks him off for sheer epic lulz -> Tatara!Shiro loses his memories -> Now HOMRA wants to kill him thinking he killed Tatara. ANGSTANGSTANGST
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Old 2012-11-16, 19:41   Link #1142
kuromitsu
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Originally Posted by Kirroha View Post
Another possible theory:

Weissman created Shiro as a puppet and possessed him to kill Tatara -> Shiro absorbs Tatara's personality after his death? -> Weissman kicks him off for sheer epic lulz -> Tatara!Shiro loses his memories -> Now HOMRA wants to kill him thinking he killed Tatara. ANGSTANGSTANGST
But Tatara wasn't dead when evil!Shiro left him. He was still alive when Izumo & Yata found him, and pretty much died in their arms.

Why do people want Shiro to be Tatara anyway? Besides, if anything, it's Anna who overlaps with Tatara in the OP, plus, so far she's the only one with psychic powers... and I bet she serves a purpose in the story.
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Old 2012-11-16, 19:43   Link #1143
Defade
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Another thought occurred to me - who's to say that the entire power display was thanks to Neko's illusions? While it's rather clear that Shiro disappearing at the end was thanks to Neko(accompanied with her signature 'nya' and pink aura), there was no hint of Neko's powers at work when Shiro actually manifested that sword and used telepathy to communicate with Kuroh. Every time we've seen Neko use her powers so far, the audience gets a pretty obvious visual and audio cue to indicate it, but nothing of the sort happened during Shiro's confrontation with the blue king.

As others have mentioned, the power surge was a little bit too 'solid' for just an illusion, especially for how long it lasted(the slasher smile cat took only one hit before it disappeared - and that was only from a sword sheath, and not a king's aura). Moreover, Reishi knew about Neko's powers of illusion and could effortlessly dissipate them - even taking into account the surprise factor, there's probably /something/ in that scene that wasn't just purely illusion.

Other hints: Shiro specifically didn't bring up the sword display as an example when he praised Neko for being amazing("The sky suddenly cleared up, and all those people appeared!"), despite the fact that it was an impressive display. I could even go as far as to say that he relied on Neko's power to escape precisely because he wants to trick all parties involved(the blue clan, Kuroh, and even us) into believing that the entire display was 'just another of Neko's illusions'...Shiro has been displaying some magnificent bastard tendencies from the very beginning, so I wouldn't put it past him.

That also brings up the possibility that Shiro's had supernatural powers all along, but never saw it in the context of the whole kings/clansmen business because of his amnesia - and that possibly also explains why he was able to remain as calm as he did in the face of the HOMRA members wielding their powers to kill him. When Kuroh was explaining the whole system of kings and clans to him, Shiro doesn't seem to be surprised at the concept of supernatural powers at all.

On a slightly related note, I like the theory that Neko first got her powers when Shiro fell through the roof. After all, if she had memory/sensory manipulation powers before she met Shiro, she would've probably had an incredibly easy time blending in with the students and getting food for herself. However, that doesn't seem to be the case, judging from her flashbacks where she generally shied away from humans and got chased down by the chef for stealing fish. I'd lean more towards her being a cat in the first place that got powers from being Shiro's 'clansman', but the fact that she seemingly 'reverted' to human form when Munakata destroyed her illusion was quite mystifying, especially when she seemed as surprised as anyone else when she first turned to human form in episode 2.

Also, Shiro's really good at holding on to his parasol, no matter the circumstances, huh...

Last edited by Defade; 2012-11-16 at 20:25.
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Old 2012-11-16, 20:12   Link #1144
mistress_kisara
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Why do people want Shiro to be Tatara anyway?
THIS.

Maybe Weismann planned to kill Tatara so that the Red King would go berserk, but he decided to let the Blue King confine him so it didn't work
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Old 2012-11-16, 20:26   Link #1145
Kirroha
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Hmm, I think I'll relook at some of my earlier theories which I had from Episode 2-3:

1) Adolf is Shiro from the future, an alternate dimension, possibility, etc. I actually like this theory - because I really hope that Adolf isn't just some kind of "Designated Villain" kind of gimmick. It'll seem like such a cop-out.

2) Split personality is starting to seem unlikely at this point. Thank goodness.

3) Shiro erasing his own memories is pretty much jossed. This episode pretty much confirms that Adolf was the one who did it.

4) Amnesia, fake memories confirmed - but it wasn't done by someone "evil", as this episode kind of confirms that Neko really had no intentions went beyond purely meaning well for Shiro.

5) I still think Ashinaka High is the lair of the Green King. The main suspect being the president of the student council.

6) I'm not sure if anyone's asked this but - there are 7 kings right? We have Red, Blue, Green, Silver, Gold, Colorless - what about the last one? There should be some kind of significance, right?
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Old 2012-11-16, 20:27   Link #1146
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People are probably going to hate for thinking this but...

Spoiler for ...:
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Old 2012-11-16, 20:30   Link #1147
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Seri in casual clothes >>>>>> Pussy. Any time, any day.
That somehow sounds wrong for some reason, even though it has no ill intentions.
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Old 2012-11-16, 20:34   Link #1148
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Originally Posted by Divino View Post
People are probably going to hate for thinking this but...

Spoiler for ...:
Actually that's very possible..
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Old 2012-11-16, 20:43   Link #1149
Cosmic Eagle
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
But my point is that if she really was a cat, when Munakata dispelled her illusion she would have remained in cat form. Since she didn't, the scene indicates her cat look is the illusion, while her human form is her real appearance.
I mean...it's not certain that just because her real form is human, she wasn't once an animal or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Defade View Post
Another thought occurred to me - who's to say that the entire power display was thanks to Neko's illusions? While it's rather clear that Shiro disappearing at the end was thanks to Neko(accompanied with her signature 'nya' and pink aura), there was no hint of Neko's powers at work when Shiro actually manifested that sword and used telepathy to communicate with Kuroh. Every time we've seen Neko use her powers so far, the audience gets a pretty obvious visual and audio cue to indicate it, but nothing of the sort happened during Shiro's confrontation with the blue king.

As others have mentioned, the power surge was a little bit too 'solid' for just an illusion, especially for how long it lasted(the slasher smile cat took only one hit before it disappeared - and that was only from a sword sheath, and not a king's aura). Moreover, Reishi knew about Neko's powers of illusion and could effortlessly dissipate them - even taking into account the surprise factor, there's probably /something/ in that scene that wasn't just purely illusion.

Other hints: Shiro specifically didn't bring up the sword display as an example when he praised Neko for being amazing("The sky suddenly cleared up, and all those people appeared!"), despite the fact that it was an impressive display. I could even go as far as to say that he relied on Neko's power to escape precisely because he wants to trick all parties involved(the blue clan, Kuroh, and even us) into believing that the entire display was 'just another of Neko's illusions'...Shiro has been displaying some magnificent bastard tendencies from the very beginning, so I wouldn't put it past him.

That also brings up the possibility that Shiro's had supernatural powers all along, but never saw it in the context of the whole kings/clansmen business because of his amnesia - and that possibly also explains why he was able to remain as calm as he did in the face of the HOMRA members wielding their powers to kill him. When Kuroh was explaining the whole system of kings and clans to him, Shiro doesn't seem to be surprised at the concept of supernatural powers at all.

On a slightly related note, I like the theory that Neko first got her powers when Shiro fell through the roof. After all, if she had memory/sensory manipulation powers before she met Shiro, she would've probably had an incredibly easy time blending in with the students and getting food for herself. However, that doesn't seem to be the case, judging from her flashbacks where she generally shied away from humans and got chased down by the chef for stealing fish. I'd lean more towards her being a cat in the first place that got powers from being Shiro's 'clansman', but the fact that she seemingly 'reverted' to human form when Munakata destroyed her illusion was quite mystifying, especially when she seemed as surprised as anyone else when she first turned to human form in episode 2.

Also, Shiro's really good at holding on to his parasol, no matter the circumstances, huh...
That's why I get the feeling she's a Stray animal that somehow got "promoted" to human.

Yeah, the telepathy is Shiro's.....was it not mentioned in earlier ep that the power of the Colorless was to see the future? Wouldn't be surprising for that to be a psychic, mind-related ability.
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Old 2012-11-16, 21:11   Link #1150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Defade View Post
Another thought occurred to me - who's to say that the entire power display was thanks to Neko's illusions? While it's rather clear that Shiro disappearing at the end was thanks to Neko(accompanied with her signature 'nya' and pink aura), there was no hint of Neko's powers at work when Shiro actually manifested that sword and used telepathy to communicate with Kuroh. Every time we've seen Neko use her powers so far, the audience gets a pretty obvious visual and audio cue to indicate it, but nothing of the sort happened during Shiro's confrontation with the blue king.

As others have mentioned, the power surge was a little bit too 'solid' for just an illusion, especially for how long it lasted(the slasher smile cat took only one hit before it disappeared - and that was only from a sword sheath, and not a king's aura). Moreover, Reishi knew about Neko's powers of illusion and could effortlessly dissipate them - even taking into account the surprise factor, there's probably /something/ in that scene that wasn't just purely illusion.

Other hints: Shiro specifically didn't bring up the sword display as an example when he praised Neko for being amazing("The sky suddenly cleared up, and all those people appeared!"), despite the fact that it was an impressive display. I could even go as far as to say that he relied on Neko's power to escape precisely because he wants to trick all parties involved(the blue clan, Kuroh, and even us) into believing that the entire display was 'just another of Neko's illusions'...Shiro has been displaying some magnificent bastard tendencies from the very beginning, so I wouldn't put it past him.

That also brings up the possibility that Shiro's had supernatural powers all along, but never saw it in the context of the whole kings/clansmen business because of his amnesia - and that possibly also explains why he was able to remain as calm as he did in the face of the HOMRA members wielding their powers to kill him. When Kuroh was explaining the whole system of kings and clans to him, Shiro doesn't seem to be surprised at the concept of supernatural powers at all.

On a slightly related note, I like the theory that Neko first got her powers when Shiro fell through the roof. After all, if she had memory/sensory manipulation powers before she met Shiro, she would've probably had an incredibly easy time blending in with the students and getting food for herself. However, that doesn't seem to be the case, judging from her flashbacks where she generally shied away from humans and got chased down by the chef for stealing fish. I'd lean more towards her being a cat in the first place that got powers from being Shiro's 'clansman', but the fact that she seemingly 'reverted' to human form when Munakata destroyed her illusion was quite mystifying, especially when she seemed as surprised as anyone else when she first turned to human form in episode 2.
Also, Shiro's really good at holding on to his parasol, no matter the circumstances, huh...
You're right, there is no evidence of the power of her (unlike other times), but perhaps it is for viewers to feel the same confusion that Reisi feels.

That sword is not normal, this can kill a king (then maybe a hit is enough to destroy the illusion). Also, I think Reisi does not attack with all his might (not active his sword).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
That's why I get the feeling she's a Stray animal that somehow got "promoted" to human.
Yeah, the telepathy is Shiro's.....was it not mentioned in earlier ep that the power of the Colorless was to see the future? Wouldn't be surprising for that to be a psychic, mind-related ability.
I think that is the ability of Neko (she can put images and sounds in the minds of other people). Moreover, Kuroh had mentioned that telepathy is the ability of a king.


I do not think we've seen Shiro skills yet.
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Old 2012-11-16, 21:44   Link #1151
Kirroha
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If we can trust what Munakata said, then Neko is definitely originally a girl, not a cat. He called her a "young girl Strain", not a cat or anything like that.
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Old 2012-11-16, 22:06   Link #1152
Defade
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Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
You're right, there is no evidence of the power of her (unlike other times), but perhaps it is for viewers to feel the same confusion that Reisi feels.

That sword is not normal, this can kill a king (then maybe a hit is enough to destroy the illusion). Also, I think Reisi does not attack with all his might (not active his sword).
Kotowari might be an incredibly powerful sword, but I'm inclined to think that its sheath is relatively normal.

Anyways, if you need another hint of how Neko wasn't responsible for the entire thing, recall when she first cast her illusion of the Shibuya crossroads over the gym. All the SCEPTER4 troops inside the gym were affected, but Fushimi was in a location outside her range of influence. However, when Shiro manifested the sword, it was clear that even Fushimi saw it and was surprised by it.
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Old 2012-11-16, 22:17   Link #1153
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Originally Posted by Kirroha View Post
If we can trust what Munakata said, then Neko is definitely originally a girl, not a cat. He called her a "young girl Strain", not a cat or anything like that.
We really need some background on Neko right now, but I doubt we will get any in the anime, maybe a manga or a novel later on
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Old 2012-11-16, 22:49   Link #1154
Kazu-kun
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Anyways, if you need another hint of how Neko wasn't responsible for the entire thing
I'm pretty sure it was Neko. Shiro wasn't even there to begin with, and if it was him who summoned the sword he would had to be there. The whole thing was an illusion, including Shiro. Besides, Shiro did thank Neko for saving their lives afterwards.
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Old 2012-11-16, 22:55   Link #1155
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Originally Posted by Defade View Post
Kotowari might be an incredibly powerful sword, but I'm inclined to think that its sheath is relatively normal.

Anyways, if you need another hint of how Neko wasn't responsible for the entire thing, recall when she first cast her illusion of the Shibuya crossroads over the gym. All the SCEPTER4 troops inside the gym were affected, but Fushimi was in a location outside her range of influence. However, when Shiro manifested the sword, it was clear that even Fushimi saw it and was surprised by it.
I did not realize that.

Maybe Neko is not fully responsible for the sword. Although I'm surprised that Kuro has not mentioned anything about it.
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Old 2012-11-16, 23:01   Link #1156
Kirroha
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Originally Posted by Defade View Post
Kotowari might be an incredibly powerful sword, but I'm inclined to think that its sheath is relatively normal.

Anyways, if you need another hint of how Neko wasn't responsible for the entire thing, recall when she first cast her illusion of the Shibuya crossroads over the gym. All the SCEPTER4 troops inside the gym were affected, but Fushimi was in a location outside her range of influence. However, when Shiro manifested the sword, it was clear that even Fushimi saw it and was surprised by it.
There are two ways to debunk that, though.
1) Neko expanded her sphere of influence this time beyond just the stadium.
2) What Fushimi did was gasp in horror - he wasn't necessarily surprised. He could very well be shocked to see that everyone was falling for the trick but he realizes that he is too late to warn them.
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Old 2012-11-16, 23:08   Link #1157
Defade
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I'm pretty sure it was Neko. Shiro wasn't even there to begin with, and if it was him who summoned the sword he would had to be there. The whole thing was an illusion, including Shiro. Besides, Shiro did thank Neko for saving their lives afterwards.
Yet we can't really say for sure that Shiro wasn't there to begin with. We know that it was out of Shiro's own volition that he went back to save Kuroh, and though it's obvious he did ask Neko for help, that doesn't mean the whole manifestation of the sword thing was Neko's doing. See all the points I raised in above posts.

Shiro 'disappearing' is definitely the work of Neko, but she could've done that easily by manipulating the senses of the people in the gym so that they are no longer able to perceive Shiro, instead of Shiro never being there in the first place.

And Neko did indeed save their lives - she orchestrated the first illusion with the Shibuya crossroad and assisted Shiro in saving Kuroh. Shiro manifesting the sword of damocles through his own power doesn't invalidate how much Neko contributed to saving them.

Anyways, with the amount of information we have right now, there will always be room for argument. Yet the writers of K have demonstrated their capability in weaving an intriguing mystery, padding it with enough hints and foreshadowing that no reveal comes off as an ass-pull. Kukuri's line in the 1st episode concerning Shiro foreshadowing that 'Isana Yashiro' doesn't exist, the cleaning robot's failure to recognize Shiro as well as his nonexistent PDA indicating that he wasn't a registered student, his zipped up jacket hiding the blood stains on his shirt...I just feel like all the hints in this episode(specifically showing that Fushimi was out of Neko's illusion range and then showing his shocked response at Shiro's sword of damocles, the lack of visual/audio cues that indicate Neko's powers at work, Shiro conveniently only praising Neko for the Shibuya illusion - which she did orchestrate) point to Shiro actually having a greater hand in what occurred in the stadium.

Just my 2 cents.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirroha View Post
There are two ways to debunk that, though.
1) Neko expanded her sphere of influence this time beyond just the stadium.
2) What Fushimi did was gasp in horror - he wasn't necessarily surprised. He could very well be shocked to see that everyone was falling for the trick but he realizes that he is too late to warn them.
1. That is entirely possible, I admit, but why didn't she cover a bigger sphere of influence on her first illusion if she suspected that there are other SCEPTER4 people outside the stadium? A bigger scale would probably lead to more confusion amongst the SCEPTER4 members and facilitate their escape easier. We do know that her sphere of influence is probably bigger than the stadium, though, so I'll admit that this is a plausible explanation.

2. Fushimi was outside the SCEPTER4 van and looking upwards at the sword. There was no way he could see what was happening with the people inside the stadium from that vantage point. If he was gasping at a screen inside the van, then perhaps, but as it stands it feels like a convoluted explanation when we could just say that he was gaping at the sword, regardless of whether it's an illusion or not.
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Old 2012-11-16, 23:14   Link #1158
Kirroha
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Originally Posted by Defade View Post
Yet we can't really say for sure that Shiro wasn't there to begin with. We know that it was out of Shiro's own volition that he went back to save Kuroh, and though it's obvious he did ask Neko for help, that doesn't mean the whole manifestation of the sword thing was Neko's doing. See all the points I raised in above posts.

Shiro 'disappearing' is definitely the work of Neko, but she could've done that easily by manipulating the senses of the people in the gym so that they are no longer able to perceive Shiro, instead of Shiro never being there in the first place.

And Neko did indeed save their lives - she orchestrated the first illusion with the Shibuya crossroad and assisted Shiro in saving Kuroh. Shiro manifesting the sword of damocles through his own power doesn't invalidate how much Neko contributed to saving them.

Anyways, with the amount of information we have right now, there will always be room for argument. Yet the writers of K have demonstrated their capability in weaving an intriguing mystery, padding it with enough hints and foreshadowing that no reveal comes off as an ass-pull. Kukuri's line in the 1st episode concerning Shiro foreshadowing that 'Isana Yashiro' doesn't exist, the cleaning robot's failure to recognize Shiro as well as his nonexistent PDA indicating that he wasn't a registered student, his zipped up jacket hiding the blood stains on his shirt...I just feel like all the hints in this episode(specifically showing that Fushimi was out of Neko's illusion range and then showing his shocked response at Shiro's sword of damocles, the lack of visual/audio cues that indicate Neko's powers at work, Shiro conveniently only praising Neko for the Shibuya illusion - which she did orchestrate) point to Shiro actually having a greater hand in what occurred in the stadium.

Just my 2 cents.
Ah, that makes quite a lot of sense. I really liked the way K managed to weave in foreshadowing hints from the beginning that lead up to a plot reveal, and as for this Shiro sword thing, if he really was the one who did it, then he must still be hiding something that us viewers don't know that he currently does. Currently we all feel inclined to trust Shiro for now since he's amnesiac and is such a nice guy, but if he really is hiding something after all... then hmm that'll be really interesting. I'd like this show even more if it does indeed proceed in that direction.

So I guess if Shiro really created that sword, then - the Sword of Damocles is currently, truly, with him then?
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Old 2012-11-16, 23:32   Link #1159
Defade
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Ah, that makes quite a lot of sense. I really liked the way K managed to weave in foreshadowing hints from the beginning that lead up to a plot reveal, and as for this Shiro sword thing, if he really was the one who did it, then he must still be hiding something that us viewers don't know that he currently does. Currently we all feel inclined to trust Shiro for now since he's amnesiac and is such a nice guy, but if he really is hiding something after all... then hmm that'll be really interesting. I'd like this show even more if it does indeed proceed in that direction.

So I guess if Shiro really created that sword, then - the Sword of Damocles is currently, truly, with him then?
Same. I didn't expect it when I first went into this show, but the writing is really solid and foreshadowing really relevant(the OP even foreshadowed Shiro falling from the sky, hahahaha).

I think it's pretty likely that Shiro is hiding something from everyone - including us - though I trust that he is a kind-hearted guy by nature and truly amnesiac. But well, his tendency to lie and competence at lying have been apparent ever since he made up that story about his little sister. Which also happens to be a call-back...call-forth...to how he made up his own name in a spur of the moment thing by looking at a poster. Gotta love how much detail the writers put into this show.

As viewers, we have very little idea of what exactly the sword of damocles is, except that it seems to be the manifestation of a king's power. I wouldn't be surprised if Shiro has always had it - or it has been somehow suppressed till this point for some reason. Someone did jokingly theorize that the sword of damocles is his parasol though, since it was conspicuously offscreen when the sword appeared.
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Old 2012-11-17, 00:07   Link #1160
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Defade View Post
Shiro 'disappearing' is definitely the work of Neko, but she could've done that easily by manipulating the senses of the people in the gym so that they are no longer able to perceive Shiro, instead of Shiro never being there in the first place.
I don't think Neko can do that. She created illusions out of nothing and modified the look of things that were already there, but if she could make something disappear, or rather make it invisible, she would have done so with the three of them at the beginning. It would have been a lot easier to escape that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Defade View Post
And Neko did indeed save their lives - she orchestrated the first illusion with the Shibuya crossroad and assisted Shiro in saving Kuroh. Shiro manifesting the sword of damocles through his own power doesn't invalidate how much Neko contributed to saving them.
The first illusion was worthless, so I don't think Shiro was thanking her for that. And I don't think he manifested the sword at all since he wasn't even there to do it. He was probably with Neko waiting for Kuro while Neko distracted everyone with her illusion. Also, Shiro seemed really honest when he said he didn't have any memories before the moment Neko found him, so there's no way he would now how to manifest the sword even if he was capable of it.

I suppose we won't know for sure until we have more info but for now my point stands.
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