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Old 2006-01-13, 01:53   Link #81
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
wingdarkness, what you said is pretty much true for every single Gundam show until Seed. I may be wrong, but I think that there's either an action sequence or combat in every single episode of these Gundam shows except for recap episodes and episode 1 of Turn A. In fact, a lot of those episodes had action sequences even where one wasn't really needed, or where one would interrupt the flow of the storyline.

However, even with action sequences tacked on, the early part of Turn A is strictly drama-oriented. The pacing and the themes tend to tone the action down by quite a bit. Of course, this fits my tastes pretty well, so I enjoyed it immensely. I felt that it was a bit of a shame that it became more of an action show in the last half.

The point that you make about the cultural elements is quite good. However, I don't think that the execution was completely successful. The best part was actually the pseudo-Turn of the Century feel of CC North America. I think that Turn A capture the mood and the (romanticised) optimism of the period very well. It was a real breath of fresh air compared to regular Gundam shows.

^I guess my point is to say that TURN A has great action...Loss in the praise and admiration for the series (in-terms of drama, story, and characters) is the fact that it has great action...Is the action stronger than the character interaction or story? Probably not, but for people who are still action-buffs don't be confused...Turn A has some great action sequences (That don't just involve mecha-battles too--The Mass Driver arc supplies what I'm talking about)...


The action is leveled in a fashion to impress and sometimes shock you, because alot of it is unexpected...As for your other point perhaps you could be more specific because I can't recall any action sequences that seemed forced or that stymied the storyline in any fashion...The action in the second half of the series was needed because they infiltrated the Moon and had to duke it out in the process...I can't see how the story couldn't end up having more action at that point...Overall IMO, the action is well balanced throughout...Nearly perfect in my estimation (with eps 40-50 really showcasing alot of the best moments of Mobile Suit action)...

Finally, Guin Lineford indirectly capsulizes that romanticised optimism you speak of...I would assume you probably valued his character like I did...
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Old 2006-01-13, 02:46   Link #82
4Tran
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Perhaps I was a little too forceful in my choice of words. I'm not really complaining about the use of action in the first part of Turn A, I was just saying that it wasn't really necessary either. Instead of inserting another skirmish the creators could have given us a little more dialogue or perhaps flesh out the setting a little more. It's a matter of taste as it is anything, so I don't really have any specific examples, nor do I think that examples would be altogether relevant.

Guin Lineford is close to what I'm getting at, but not quite. I'm more talking about the sheer joy in doing new things, the love of adventure, and other sepia-toned expressions that the modern world doesn't care all that much about anymore. I would say that if anyone were to be the role model for these values, it would be Miashei.

wingdarkness, my tastes seem to be very different from yours. I didn't find the end of Turn A to be all that special, instead, my favorite episodes are the stretch from episode 9 to 20 or so. If you want further examples of my strange tastes, you can check the favorite Destiny episodes thread.
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Old 2006-01-13, 04:45   Link #83
W-General
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Oh...speaking of favorite episodes, while I like them all, the ones I particular like more than others...

1) Episode 8? When Loran declares that he's a moonrace, yet he's not trampling on Earth people's rights. I think he meant to find a balance there (that he's a Militia warrior and a moonrace), which I think just goes to show how much he cares for people of both sides

2) All the episodes which feature White Doll doing non-Gundam-like things. Like Loran's Cow episode. Loran doing laundry with Dianna was also awesome (which also had tons of Dianna character development)

3) Dianna and Kihel development. Especially the ones with her doing things that you wouldn't imagine Queen of the Moon to do, like taking care of patients at a field hospital. Also episodes which had the Dianna-Kihel confusion were the greatest. I still remember that episode when they got to the Zacktregger, and they used their swapped identity to make sure that Midgard and the Moonrace doesn't attack Willgem. I quote one of the greatest lines of the series "Kihel Heim to Kihel Heim....Dianna Soreil to Dianna Soreil."

And there's a lot more....too many to list. It's just geniusly crafted character moments like these that makes me love Turn A.

I also agree that there's tons of action in Turn A, there's almost action every single episode. Maybe what people are complaining is the lack of flashy "Gundam kicking grunts' ass" action that many Gundam fans have gotten accustomed to in Wing/Seed/Seed Destiny. I personally think such action is pure junk...
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Old 2006-01-13, 08:00   Link #84
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Yes, there was action, but there's less ace vs ace mobile suit fighting than other gundam series, which makes it less appealing to those who like deathmatches. Other than the last battle, there are rarely any long duration one vs one mobile suit battles or melee range fighting. Tomino didn't want Turn A to be based on design and action, and I think he got abit too much and took out too much action and focused too much on story. People watch anime because they like action, action that can never be done in life-action, and not mainly for the story. Sure, action without story makes an anime dull, but so does an anime with no action.

In my case, unless you really like Turn A's story, the action isn't at all appealing compared to the previous gundam series. Yes, some of you might want to deny this and say that Turn A has lots of action sequences as well, but comparing to the rest, the battles are way too boring. This is why I recommend only people who like interesting plots and not mobile suit fighting itself to watch this film.

For those who like action but not as much of story, I would recommend Gundam X, it really has some great battle sequences that are worth watching, and the story was pretty good, right until the last few episodes which I had no idea what it was trying to say. (The DOME, or whatever it is, just confuses me.)

For those who like action mixed with story, Mobile suit Gundam is your choice (I personally like this alot, comedy, character development, action) but bare in mind that this is a rather old series and the graphic quality might not be what you would expect. A newer but more serious counterpart would be V Gundam, with better graphic qualities and action sequences, but the amount of deaths with secondary characters can sometimes be annoying. If you wish to find out more about newtypes, Z gundam would also be a good choice.

For people who like comedy, ZZ Gundam would be the best choice, but can it sometimes seem goofy..

If you like pure gundam coolness but a story that makes no sense, go for Gundam Wing. (otherwise known as boyband gundam)

And if you don't care about action and would rather have a good story, Turn A is your choice, otherwise, you might as well read a book..
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Old 2006-01-13, 11:25   Link #85
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Action is not the only reason people watch anime or any show. There are a lot of anime shows, hell shows in general where the the show is almost 100% drama and story focused with not a punch in site or the most action you see is screaming or even kissing for another type of action. People watch shows for a lot of different reasons.

Now I don't want to assume anything but maybe you say that because you haven't viewed a lot of anime in general or shows that didn't have action. Not to single you out but there are a lot of anime viewers that do need to expand the type of shows they watch to see what else is out there.

As for Wing's story not making sense, did you actually listen and pay attention to it? I still don't see how people can say this. The story makes perfect sense if you pay attention. That could be the problem cause if you don't things can get confusing which I've heard several people comment on as the reason why they didn't get it, because they weren't paying attention the first time they watched it. The boy band gundam would actually be SEED and SEED Destiny. You know the show where almost no character has any physical flaws in terms of their looks, and a big deal is made out of a scar across a persons face and it's removed later on. Even when they die it seems they are ready for a photo shoot. For every negative think you can think about for Wing, SEED or SEED Destiny has the honor of being worse. We all know that's true when you think about it.

Like said, Turn A has plenty of action. The difference between it and some other shows is that the action is there to support the actual story. The story isn't there to support the action, to to give the action substance. That's the difference I feel. There isn't action just for the sake of having action I think. Which could be why each battle in Turn A is always different and you don't have the stock footage that other gundam shows have.
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Old 2006-01-13, 11:43   Link #86
GX9900_NTlv9
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The difference in the type of action makes Turn A very different from other series and therefore some do not even consider it a gundam series.. Get my point?

If you don't, let me tell you what's the point, the point is that Turn A is not about fighting, while generally, all other gundam series are about fighting. Simple as that. That is why it appeals to only the more mature audience. As for the story for Turn A, it generally starts off with focus on the war between the Earth race and the Moon race, then towards the end, Diana reveals the black history unveils the truth behind the Turn A gundam. There's no focus on actual fighting involved, no comments about the pilots abilities, and not a single newtype or genetically-enhanced being. It's so different from other gundam series it's no surprise why some don't consider it one. Tomino named the show Turn A Gundam, I think he should have named it the Black history.

Also, I do watch other anime, that includes Naruto, Bleach, Prince of Tennis, Yu Yu Hakusho and Saiyuki.
As you can see they all involve fighting, and I generally prefer the fighting genre, very different from you.

I do know that GSD is not exactly a good show, but I shall not comment about it since I haven't finished watching it. As far as Gundam Wing is concerned, hell, there isn't even proper grunts to begin with, Heero fires those buster rifle shots like he's having shooting train, and it makes me sick. I do like Quatre and Duo, and also their gundams, because they put up a good fight, unlike Heero in the Wing Gundam.

Last of all, I'm not saying Turn A is a bad show, it is actually a good show, it depends on how you look at it, actually. If I view it as a Gundam show, I would say it's terrible. But if I view it as a stand-alone anime, I would give it a 9/10.

Last edited by GX9900_NTlv9; 2006-01-13 at 11:55.
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Old 2006-01-13, 12:35   Link #87
SlugZilla
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I think that it shouldn't have been a Gundam series. Just because it has Gundam stuck at the end of Turn A doesn't make it a gundam series. It should've been just called Turn A and be identified as something unique not tied to the Gundam franchise. I personally would have taken out all the references to gundam, replace the zakus and other MS with original mecha and kept it an original series. It was like a ploy to get gundam fans to watch it. I mean if I put Gundam in front of Escaflowne, give it a v fin and put some zakus in it would that make it a gundam series? I mean a lot of fans would go watch it and be disappointed that aside from the Zaku, v-fin and the Gundam name, that it has little to do with gundam, but deep inside they didn't regret watching it because it was a good series. Actually half of me says it was nice to see some UC and AU references in Turn A but the other half tells me that it was a baaaad idea to include them. But the fact is Turn A is more fantasy, less sci-fi, unlike Gundam. They are like oxymorons, and barely ever should be found in the same sentence.
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Old 2006-01-13, 15:10   Link #88
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Turn A Gundam not being a Gundam argument has a few flaws. Its created by a person who created Gundam it self so if he says this show is a Gundam then its pretty much a Gundam (sounds lame but its true). Second point this show still continues the standard Mother Earth vs Space setting, except with a twist where the people in space want to return and live on Earth.

Final point: what makes a mecha show a Gundam? I can only think of having a red, white, blue/black, yellow mecha called a Gundam and a conflict between governments, races whatever. So what's left? Taking place in a futuristic setting? Well it is, the Moon has cities and humans living on it and Earth is simply following Einstein's famous quote: "I do not know how the Third World War will be fought, but I can tell you what they will use in the Fourth—rocks!"
So what's left?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlugZilla
But the fact is Turn A is more fantasy, less sci-fi, unlike Gundam.
I'm sorry you're wrong. Turn A is pretty much a SF not a fantasy (steampunk genre if I'm not mistaken). Actually I can't recall any fantasy elements what so ever (can you point out some examples where Turn A is cleary a fantasy genre) unless you count technology that can never happen but if you do that all the Gundams are nothing but fantasy.
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Old 2006-01-13, 16:23   Link #89
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Turn A gundam is very much a gundam show. Actually it is almost a thematic reflection on all the themes of the gundam franchise. It is a definite complementtary watch of the old gundam series. It basically summerizes all the theme gundam had about war and technology except that it offers a much more optimistic outlook in those regards.
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Old 2006-01-13, 16:31   Link #90
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I think he was referring more to the background and design elements taking on a tone that's closer to fantasy than contemporary Sci-Fi, which is true. Much of the show's atmosphere gives it an almost Miyazaki like artistic departure from conventional Science Fiction designs.

That having been said, Turn-A is no less of a Science Fiction series than any classic episodes of Star Trek where the Enterprise crew visit any older style civilization. Or if a show like Firefly can commonly have Wild West or older Europen type settings and ideaologies (And Firefly and Serentiy both seem to have some strong Gundam/Anime based influences), then Turn-A is no less of a Sci-Fi show. The ideas behind the show are based on a set of semi-realistic technological advances and political and philisophical ideas that eventually allow the world to end up in it's current state, even if the ideas seem unlikely.

For another comparison, Star Wars is Fantasy in the guise of Sci-Fi, while Turn-A is Sci-Fi with the guise of Fantasy.
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Old 2006-01-13, 19:34   Link #91
SlugZilla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaat
Turn A Gundam not being a Gundam argument has a few flaws. Its created by a person who created Gundam it self so if he says this show is a Gundam then its pretty much a Gundam (sounds lame but its true). Second point this show still continues the standard Mother Earth vs Space setting, except with a twist where the people in space want to return and live on Earth.
I don't care if Turn A is Gundam or not, but I do think it would've been better off had it not been. So there are many similarities between Turn A and Gundam, but then again there are many similarities between Gundam and other mecha series.
Quote:
Final point: what makes a mecha show a Gundam? I can only think of having a red, white, blue/black, yellow mecha called a Gundam and a conflict between governments, races whatever. So what's left? Taking place in a futuristic setting? Well it is, the Moon has cities and humans living on it and Earth is simply following Einstein's famous quote: "I do not know how the Third World War will be fought, but I can tell you what they will use in the Fourth—rocks!"
So what's left?
What makes a mecha show Gundam? That definition lost it's meaning with AU. Now it's just the title. Anything with the name Gundam in it becomes geniune "Gundam" and is identified, compared, and bunched together with all other Gundam works. Gundam now is just a category nothing more, and I think Turn A deserves more than just being categorized into one of the other Gundam series. It's not a knock on Gundam, it's just that Turn A deserves to stand on its own name, to define a series of its own like Eva, and Escaflowne.
Quote:
I'm sorry you're wrong. Turn A is pretty much a SF not a fantasy (steampunk genre if I'm not mistaken). Actually I can't recall any fantasy elements what so ever (can you point out some examples where Turn A is cleary a fantasy genre) unless you count technology that can never happen but if you do that all the Gundams are nothing but fantasy.
Actually I think UC Gundam technology seems possible, but Turn A not. How do you say that UC Gundam technology is impossible? From that definition of fantasy then UC Gundam is already fantasy because of newtypes. The moonlight butterfly is like a weapon that is straight out of fantasy, the way it can completely devour a planet. Also the way that Turn A can heal its own wounds. Fantasy is also imaginative, not just a question of possibility. Turn A has completely unique designs that no serious minded person would ever conjure up when designing a mobile suit. The way Turn A first appears is like from a legend: "A giant rises from the earth and saves humanity from the invaders from the skies". Also how Turn A and Turn X's last epic battles that seals them in a coccoon, that's nothing like the sci-fi battles I've seen. I can't really imagine Turn A happening in real life. I can *almost* imagine something like MSG w/o newtypes happening, but Turn A to me is like a folk tale.
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Old 2006-01-13, 19:58   Link #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlugZilla
Actually I think UC Gundam technology seems possible, but Turn A not. How do you say that UC Gundam technology is impossible? From that definition of fantasy then UC Gundam is already fantasy because of newtypes. The moonlight butterfly is like a weapon that is straight out of fantasy, the way it can completely devour a planet.
Moonlight butterfly actually is quite realistic... program a bunch of nanomachines to self reproduce and attack elettronic devices and then spread them. We're not there yet, but the technology is almost here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlugZilla
Also the way that Turn A can heal its own wounds.
Self repairing machines are built today. Welcome to the 21th century

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlugZilla
Turn A has completely unique designs that no serious minded person would ever conjure up when designing a mobile suit.
Mobile Suits in Turn A behave and look like machines (e.g. turning the head at 360°), while in other gundam shows they usualy the act like the have a human body...
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Old 2006-01-13, 20:19   Link #93
SlugZilla
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Originally Posted by Kronos
Moonlight butterfly actually is quite realistic... program a bunch of nanomachines to self reproduce and attack elettronic devices and then spread them. We're not there yet, but the technology is almost here.
I already know they are from nanomachines and I'm not asking if nanomachines are possible. The question is, is it possible to devour a planet with a nanomachines. You have to prove that with evidence.
Quote:
Self repairing machines are built today. Welcome to the 21th century
And does that happen to be the same exact way Turn A can repair itself out of nothing?
Quote:
Mobile Suits in Turn A behave and look like machines (e.g. turning the head at 360°), while in other gundam shows they usualy the act like the have a human body...
They both look like human to me...
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Old 2006-01-13, 20:43   Link #94
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Turn A actually has the most efficient mechanical designs of the Gundam series.

Look at Turn A. Without the paintjob and the mustauche, it would look like a bare bones, all combat gundam. It's all hollow wherever possible. The legs aren't just walking and steering anymore, they also add to the thrust. The chest is stores missiles and other items(see the nuke episodes). The head is round and streamlined, unlike the boxy heads of UC MS. It also features full rotational abilities. UC MS do not feature that, and that is not very logical.

Then the SUMO. First, it has an all round casing. This means less drag, while adding on armour, then we have the smaller beam gun. It also has an attachable skirt for high speed missions.

Then the FLAT. Focusing souly on the design, it is the most efficient MS design ever conceived. Not only can it be compressed for storage, it also has a good range of movement. Not only that, but it can use a wide range of weapons.

Then teh WaDom. Storable arms means less drag when running, full rotational head, and ejectible parts incase of malfunction or damage.

Wad is a great reconisance and support vehicle, capable of looking around corners safely, and can weild a wide variety of weapons.

The Kapool and Borjarnon(Zaku II, with the exception of Gavane's) are pretty much the same as UC....

Willgame JR.(forget his name and mech's name) MS(the one with the shoulder cannon, like the GM Cannon) has a more streamlined design then the GM cannon.
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Old 2006-01-13, 20:44   Link #95
Kronos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlugZilla
I already know they are from nanomachines and I'm not asking if nanomachines are possible. The question is, is it possible to devour a planet with a nanomachines. You have to prove that with evidence.
I'm not talking about sci-fi, I'm talking about reality! We have had self replicating machine since '50, we have biological molecular assemblers, we have self assembling structures...
Assemblers going amok is one of the biggest fear, Crichton even wrote a book on that

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlugZilla
And does that happen to be the same exact way Turn A can repair itself out of nothing?
They do not employ nanomachines yet, but they don't have a Minowsky reactor either
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Old 2006-01-13, 22:50   Link #96
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Ok now we're talking about the technology in Turn A, first, the concept of nano machines was believable, but NOT the concept of devouring a whole planet. That's like some sort of dbz style planet-clearing antics, is that believable? The fact that the mobile suits in Turn A was becoming more adapt for battle in real-life situations is not even worth mentioning, because all mobile suits aren't suitable for real-life battles anyway, and it's probably a stupid idea to make them look as such, they are ugly, unappealing, and sometimes even tanks look better than them. These ms designs and fighting styles make Turn A a completely ORIGINAL series, and should be viewed as one. If you want to see the obvious differences between Turn A and the other Gundam series, go watch all the other gundam series, then watch Turn A, and then think whether Turn A is actually a gundam series.
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Old 2006-01-14, 03:27   Link #97
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Well for those that question the idea of nanomachines devouring all the technologies on surface of the planet here is some info about the "Grey Goo". Tomino didn't make it up it was a concern raised by some nanotech researchers themselves. Althought the idea is taken to quite an extreme in many SF plot. But then thats what SF stories are about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_goo

I mean i woudl believe more in the possiblity of this happening than seeing a future where people build 18 meter tall robots to fight with beam rifles and beam sabers.
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Old 2006-01-14, 04:46   Link #98
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LOL I was gonna post something about that...but looks like someone beat me to it. Well i have it typed up several hours ago, but I had some more stuff to it. Looks like I don't need to do it anymore...

XD


There have been so many new long posts it'll take me a while to read them all
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Old 2006-01-14, 09:24   Link #99
4Tran
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I have reservations about nanotechnology as it is depicted in Turn A. While it theoretically could work, I'm more concerned with the propagation rate, the limits of nanobot replication, the ability of nanobots to reason, the rate of breaking down technology, and possible countermeasures. The wiki article on grey goo does a decent job of presenting some of these limitations. Here is a much more detailed critique on nanotechnology if you're interested.

Of course, I'm not sure why we're really concentrating on the plausiblity of nanotechnology when it's quite a bit more scienfically sound than the way the nuclear bombs behaved, Turn X, and the like. Even here, Turn A is still about a million times more sound than Mobile Suit Gundam, so I think that this line of criticism doesn't really work.

Having said that, I think that Turn A is very much a Gundam show. It has simply too many elements for the connection to be dismissed. However, I still think that it would have worked better if it wasn't. Turn A was at its most interesting when it was in its most unGundam stage, and it would have been nice to see how those ideas progressed. Instead, its ending conformed to the connotations of what a Gundam show is, and we got something relatively typical. If Turn A didn't have to meet the expectations of a Gundam show, then we might have gotten something much more flavorful. Interestingly enough, this paragraph would work equally well if I substituted every single instance of "Turn A" with "Destiny".

Enough rambling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by W-General
2) All the episodes which feature White Doll doing non-Gundam-like things. Like Loran's Cow episode. Loran doing laundry with Dianna was also awesome (which also had tons of Dianna character development)
These are perfect examples of why I love the early episodes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by W-General
Also episodes which had the Dianna-Kihel confusion were the greatest.
Again, I heartily agree. I really wish that the creators decided to have more fun with this and exploited this element to the utmost. I was rather disappointed that they decided to go to the Moon and do war stuff instead. It sort of tickles me that nobody ever cites this as a case of "lame" or "contrived" writing.

I would include Dianna at Heim's grave and in the mine with Corin Nander as some other good parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by W-General
And there's a lot more....too many to list. It's just geniusly crafted character moments like these that makes me love Turn A.
Indeed. Of all the Tomino works I have come across (admittedly not all that much), this is by far his best handling of characters. The writing and dialogue is just sharper than his other works, and a sense of fun permeates Turn A. Everything just seems to work better here.
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Old 2006-01-14, 11:03   Link #100
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As far as Gundam series are concerned, I watched Turn A before Mobile Suit Gundam, and I like Mobile Suit Gundam more.

And I don't like Turn A as a gundam series, because the characters are generally typical (a hero, a princess, and character traits that are not worth remembering, the characters from other series are more likeable), the only thing I like about Turn A is the story. So I'm just trying to say that not all people will like Turn A as much as you people do.
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