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Old 2012-11-20, 12:08   Link #31201
Wegenbarth
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Hmm.
Was it mentioned somewhere in "Our Confession" how Battler and Beato did win that closed room battle with Erika in ep6?
Iirc there was something about Battler mentioning that Erika shot into the cabinet, and Kanon stopped existing because of it. (And Battler said that Beato's solution was good, too.)
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Old 2012-11-20, 12:16   Link #31202
Renall
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Originally Posted by Wegenbarth View Post
Hmm.
Was it mentioned somewhere in "Our Confession" how Battler and Beato did win that closed room battle with Erika in ep6?
Iirc there was something about Battler mentioning that Erika shot into the cabinet, and Kanon stopped existing because of it. (And Battler said that Beato's solution was good, too.)
That was my joke video. It doesn't actually matter how Kanon could stop existing as long as he could (and, apparently, he could).
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Old 2012-11-20, 14:22   Link #31203
Joeyscraggy
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Originally Posted by Wegenbarth View Post
Hmm.
Was it mentioned somewhere in "Our Confession" how Battler and Beato did win that closed room battle with Erika in ep6?
Iirc there was something about Battler mentioning that Erika shot into the cabinet, and Kanon stopped existing because of it. (And Battler said that Beato's solution was good, too.)
Not only in your video, Renall, but also in this thread (i think), somebody mentioned that in the meta scene, Erika threw some blue stakes at the cabinet, that could represent bullets.
BTW, is there a general consensus on the number of guns in the island? Because if I recall correctly, there should be 4+ usable guns, because in EP3 each of the siblings wields one, plus the one Yasu could have, but i could be wrong.
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Old 2012-11-20, 14:34   Link #31204
Renall
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Generally speaking, the consensus seems to be four. The episodes where all are held by the adults, deaths seem to occur in other manners (such as strangulation).

It does seem plausible to assume there is another gun though. I forget if Our Confession mentions it.
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Old 2012-11-20, 15:16   Link #31205
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Originally Posted by Klarth View Post
Random thought: In EP1, after the FT is discovered, Natsuhi and Eva go to talk to Kinzo, alone. Two women going alone when a supposed murderer is loose; as capable as Eva might be, it doesn't seem to be a very good idea for them to do so. I think Natsuhi actually asks to go alone at first, only to have Eva offer to follow.

Doesn't this suggest that they know they're not in danger for some reason? Or are they just not thinking? Or am I just missing something?
I forget the specifics of this scene, but to be fair, the survivors split up like this literally ALL THE TIME. Natsuhi, also, has to maintain the illusion of Kinzo, which includes checking for his location/safety, but you also wouldnt want other people around for that.

Erika makes a joke about in EP5, and as you say, it's almost always a bad idea. People are free to make poor decisions, after all,I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Generally speaking, the consensus seems to be four. The episodes where all are held by the adults, deaths seem to occur in other manners (such as strangulation).

It does seem plausible to assume there is another gun though. I forget if Our Confession mentions it.
I think it's an unnecessary detail (but then, I don't know much about guns), but Our Confessions does mention Shannon having a handgun of some sort, which was used in her own death towards the end. I SUPPOSE it could explain the different types of wounds we see throughout the games, and it would be a weapon that's much more easily concealed than the winchesters.

I'd say there are only 4 winchesters, though, because there's been no hint that there were more. If there were, surely EVERY adult would have been given one, in EP3, right?
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Old 2012-11-20, 15:29   Link #31206
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
That's true, and it works fine as a way to hide that she's using a gun (although with 6 people killed at once, it'd still be natural to think that a weapon like a gun was used).

However, as for making the murders look magical, this has the opposite effect. Anyone looking at the crime scene would jump to the conclusion that those tools were used to damage the faces, and in fact, those tools probably were used. The correct, very non-magical answer is staring us in the face. If the corpses were found in literally any other location, we'd have a very bizarre mystery on our hands. Instead, we've got some strong evidence that the culprit couldn't rely on magic even to smash a few faces on already-dead corpses.
In the tales no one seems to notice it much.
I mean, if two servants were to tell me that my grandfather summoned demons that killed some of my relatives and made others fall in pitfalls that magically appeared first I would think they're joking then I would check if they took drugs.

Yet, Battler and Co swallowed this lie effortlessly.

One matter is facing something odd you can't explain (the door was closed and yet the culprit managed to get in and out) and another is being told an obvious fairly tale and accept it as true.

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Originally Posted by Klarth View Post
Random thought: In EP1, after the FT is discovered, Natsuhi and Eva go to talk to Kinzo, alone. Two women going alone when a supposed murderer is loose; as capable as Eva might be, it doesn't seem to be a very good idea for them to do so. I think Natsuhi actually asks to go alone at first, only to have Eva offer to follow.

Doesn't this suggest that they know they're not in danger for some reason? Or are they just not thinking? Or am I just missing something?
I think Ep 1 is similar to Ep 5. It's possible Eva is an accomplice but, as in Ep 5, she thought the deaths were being faked and that took part to this in the belief Kinzo was dead, in order to force Natsuhi to admit it (though I always have a hard time thinking they didn't realize Krauss and Co were dead...).

Natsuhi on the other time, might be under blackmail like in Ep 5.

This would make them both work for Yasu but not being accomplices with each other.

In Ep 5 too, despite being told Krauss had been kidnapped and that people had been killed Natsuhi wandered through the house on her own so I guess she can do it even in EP 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Generally speaking, the consensus seems to be four. The episodes where all are held by the adults, deaths seem to occur in other manners (such as strangulation).

It does seem plausible to assume there is another gun though. I forget if Our Confession mentions it.
Ep 8 chap 8 manga version seems to imply 5 as it shows 1 M1897, 1 M9410 and 3 M1894. There's to say I can't read Chinese and Kinzo is also holding one in his hands so they could be more (I'm not sure if the gun Kinzo was holding was included in the count or not... I think not though). The one Kinzo hold is pretty short so I think it was the gun Yasu used as it's easier to hide it.

Kinzo explains how they work (it seems the bullet contains many little balls so that when you shoot 1 bullet you're actually shooting many little balls) so there can be the solution of a trick here but without a translation I can't figure out more than what the pictures show.

However I think the manga is reliable in implying there were at least 5 guns.

Do we have a gun expert that can tell us more about the guns used?
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Old 2012-11-20, 16:38   Link #31207
GabrieliosP
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
In the tales no one seems to notice it much.
I mean, if two servants were to tell me that my grandfather summoned demons that killed some of my relatives and made others fall in pitfalls that magically appeared first I would think they're joking then I would check if they took drugs.

Yet, Battler and Co swallowed this lie effortlessly.
As it was discussed before, the Episodes are in-story fiction, so as long as the in-story author wants to, then everything should be believeable. Like in Our Confessions, Natsuhi and Krauss went along with Yasu perfectly when they had plenty of options to not obey him/her and still live, bomb or not.
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Old 2012-11-20, 20:18   Link #31208
Kiltias
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Do we have a gun expert that can tell us more about the guns used?
My knowledge is limited.

m1897 -
It's a 12 gauge trench gun used by the US Army produced until 1957 with caliber 12 and 16.
It was used in several wars such as WW 1 and 2 and the Vietnam war capable of holding 6 bullets.

Its effective range is up to 20m so one can kill from quite the distance pretty handily.

A bit over a million were manufactured and is used by the army,police and hunters.

Quote:
Our Confessions does mention Shannon having a handgun of some sort
There is a M1894 Handgun.Steyr Mannlicher.An early semi auto handgun of Austrian and Hungarian collab. origin.

Yet an M1894 is also a Winchester Model being a very popular hunting rifle and is said to have the ultimate lever action design so this one is champ at reloading.
EP 3: Rudolf: "Brats don't know anything about the refinement of a lever action"

Its a sporting rifle having sold over 7 Mil times and IMO interestingly used with smokeless powder so if you fire it residue is practically none making it effective for closeby killing.
Residue is how police determine if a shooter was close or far.
EG: Point blank leaves alot of residue.
With the 1894, that factor is gone.Yasu could just shoot someone from point blank and noone could tell.

Its pretty much THE gun for hunting and can even fire 44 magnum rounds.


Well if anything, its almost as if they ask to be used.

Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-11-20 at 20:36.
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Old 2012-11-20, 20:39   Link #31209
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by GabrieliosP View Post
As it was discussed before, the Episodes are in-story fiction, so as long as the in-story author wants to, then everything should be believeable. Like in Our Confessions, Natsuhi and Krauss went along with Yasu perfectly when they had plenty of options to not obey him/her and still live, bomb or not.
I don't remember MetaBattler offering gun involving theories in the first episodes either.
He was always trying to make up weird stuffs that would shoot stakes so that stakes would pierce skulls and bones and so on.

I can't remember him discussing what killed the people in the 1st Twilight but chances are that he would overlook what he has in front of himself for something else.

And anyway if he were to mention the tools in there, since the people were killed by the gun he kept ignoring in the first episodes, Beato can tell him:

None of them was used to kill someone

and possibly

None of them was used to ruin the faces if she carried away the tool she used so that he wouldn't find it dirt in blood were he to search for it.
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Old 2012-11-21, 02:49   Link #31210
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IIRC when he got a bit less sucky in later games he did mention that their faces were probably just mashed up with the tools.
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Old 2012-11-21, 11:31   Link #31211
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I don't remember MetaBattler offering gun involving theories in the first episodes either.
He was always trying to make up weird stuffs that would shoot stakes so that stakes would pierce skulls and bones and so on.

I can't remember him discussing what killed the people in the 1st Twilight but chances are that he would overlook what he has in front of himself for something else.

And anyway if he were to mention the tools in there, since the people were killed by the gun he kept ignoring in the first episodes, Beato can tell him:

None of them was used to kill someone

and possibly

None of them was used to ruin the faces if she carried away the tool she used so that he wouldn't find it dirt in blood were he to search for it.
Isn't that a pretty big contrast though? Battler wasn't able to figure out how the stakes were used until EP4 (though he actually figures it out pretty quickly then, possibly because he'd had time to calm down from the crimes and nothing better to do). However, literally the very first thing he thinks after seeing the EP1 FT corpses is this:

Quote:
I didn't know whether it had been one of these gardening tools, which if used for something other than their intended purpose could definitely be wielded with a naked brutality, or whether some horrible tool had been brought in here specifically for this.
Compare that to the stakes, where his best EP1 explanation was pretty pathetic.
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Old 2012-11-22, 01:29   Link #31212
NeoMobius
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Could anyone help me out matching these traits to the complete cast of Umineko Characters

Here's what I have so far, I would appreciate any help if you could point who does or doesn't belong. In the end I hope to have one person per category without repeat. Thanks

Pervert - Rudolf / Asmodeus / Gap? / Erika?
Snob - Will / Kannon
Lazy - Belphegor
Arrogant - Erika / Bern / Eva / Eva Beatrice / Kasumi? / Natsuhi?
Idiot - Amakuza / Kinzo?
Know it all - Erika / Featherine?
Asshole - Kinzo/ Ghoda / Erika / Bern / Will / Rudolf

Last edited by NeoMobius; 2012-11-22 at 01:57.
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Old 2012-11-22, 03:08   Link #31213
Drifloon
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Compare that to the stakes, where his best EP1 explanation was pretty pathetic.
To be fair, it was actually George who came up with the stake shooting device, IIRC.
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Old 2012-11-22, 11:59   Link #31214
Wegenbarth
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Originally Posted by NeoMobius View Post
Could anyone help me out matching these traits to the complete cast of Umineko Characters

Here's what I have so far, I would appreciate any help if you could point who does or doesn't belong. In the end I hope to have one person per category without repeat. Thanks

Pervert - Rudolf / Asmodeus / Gap? / Erika?
Snob - Will / Kannon
Lazy - Belphegor
Arrogant - Erika / Bern / Eva / Eva Beatrice / Kasumi? / Natsuhi?
Idiot - Amakuza / Kinzo?
Know it all - Erika / Featherine?
Asshole - Kinzo/ Ghoda / Erika / Bern / Will / Rudolf
How about:

Pride - Natsuhi, Erika, Magical Ghoda Chef,
Envy - Kyrie, Jessica(see ep6), Leviathan
Greed - Eva, Mammon
Sloth - Kraus, Belphagore
Wrath - Rosa, Satan
Gluttony - Beelzebub, Hideyoshi
Lust - Kinzo, Asmodeus, Rudolf, Battler (ep1)
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Old 2012-11-22, 13:48   Link #31215
Drifloon
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I don't THINK his categories were meant to correspond to the seven sins?

Because, if they were, the seven stakes would be pretty obvious candidates.
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Old 2012-11-22, 16:48   Link #31216
Kiltias
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Originally Posted by Wegenbarth View Post
How about:

Pride - Natsuhi, Erika, Magical Ghoda Chef,
Envy - Kyrie, Jessica(see ep6), Leviathan
Greed - Eva, Mammon
Sloth - Kraus, Belphagore
Wrath - Rosa, Satan
Gluttony - Beelzebub, Hideyoshi
Lust - Kinzo, Asmodeus, Rudolf, Battler (ep1)
Is it just me or is there some connection between stakes and parents?

7 being the amount of them as well as being able to fit to each.

Envy - Leviathan - Kyrie
Pride - Lucifer - Natsuhi
Wrath - Satan - Rosa
Greed - Mammon - Eva
Gluttony - Beelzebub - Hideyoshi

Only two problems I see are Lust and Sloth.
Lust isn't meant as sexual but it stands for desire.
Lust for power,fame,money whatever one can desire, but it doesn't mean sexual only, that just thought so as its often associated with it.
I'd actually put Lust for Krauss, desiring the inheritance and power, wasn't it that he made some failed investment or something?I think it was a resort.
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Old 2012-11-22, 20:00   Link #31217
Kealym
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Originally Posted by NeoMobius View Post
Could anyone help me out matching these traits to the complete cast of Umineko Characters

Here's what I have so far, I would appreciate any help if you could point who does or doesn't belong. In the end I hope to have one person per category without repeat. Thanks
Hm ... it ... kinda depends on what your purpose is? And what do you mean by "one per category without repeat", since there are like 50 characters..? Also, off the top of my head, the only character who'd probably fit "Lazy" would be Kumasawa. Certainly not Belphegor
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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Is it just me or is there some connection between stakes and parents?

7 being the amount of them as well as being able to fit to each.

Envy - Leviathan - Kyrie
Pride - Lucifer - Natsuhi
Wrath - Satan - Rosa
Greed - Mammon - Eva
Gluttony - Beelzebub - Hideyoshi

Only two problems I see are Lust and Sloth.
Lust isn't meant as sexual but it stands for desire.
Lust for power,fame,money whatever one can desire, but it doesn't mean sexual only, that just thought so as its often associated with it.
I'd actually put Lust for Krauss, desiring the inheritance and power, wasn't it that he made some failed investment or something?I think it was a resort.
Yes, there's always been a rather thin correlation between the Stakes and the adults. There are seven of each, and both are a large group of siblings (being generous and including the spouses as brothers/sisters-in-law, of course). Furthermore, at least in EP1 and 2, the fantasy narrative played with the idea, very barely, that the stake victims were particularly guilty of what they were killed with (for example, in EP1 and 2 Kanon was killed by Satan as a result of his rush to attempt to fight Beatrice). It's an idea the story dropped after, at the latest and thinnest, Kyrolf's battle in Banquet.

The problem, as I see it, isn't with Lust and Sloth, but with conflation - several of the adults are decent fits for several of the sins.

On the matter of definitions - it pays to keep in mind that the list of the 7 deadly sins went through many, many translations over the centuries as it travelled between languages, and evolving semantics. The way that most of us know it was "codified" in Dante's Divine Comedy like 700 years ago, based on a revised list by Pope Gregory I.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that while, yes, Lust doesn't HAVE to refer to the sexual, it really, at least since then, almost always, ALWAYS ALWAYS is, which isn't surprising considering the rather high place most cultures put on some kind of codified sexual mores. If we always used lust more abstractly, to refer to desire in general, it would bleed too much into what's typically given to Greed, Envy, Sloth, all of them really. So it's probably simpler to keep it to the desire to bump uglies.

It IS interesting, though, that in the Divine Comedy, I believe Dante defined each of the sins as a type of twisted love (this fits really well with Beato's framework where love is the only element in the world) that took away from your love of God in some way. Lust, then, was an "excessive love of others", or something like that. Greed, then, was a love, specifically, for material goods. Gluttony, a love for consumption, and Envy, a love for what is not yours. This definition of Lust is supported by Umineko at least, in the sense, that Asmodeus defining trait (as a side character, she only gets one, of course) is that she wants to fall in love, or at least have a nice roll in the hay, I guess ... she made up her mind long ago about giving her chocolates to Amakusa in the Valentines TIP, after all.
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Old 2012-11-22, 21:26   Link #31218
Valkama
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Well we could make the 7 adults fit all 7 of the sins easily.

Pride - Natsuhi
Envy - Kyrie
Wrath - Rosa
Sloth - Krauss
Greed - Eva
Gluttony - Hideyoshi
Lust - Rudolf

Actually that is rather humorous how all the sins fit all the adults, intentional or accidental on Ryukishi's part?
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Old 2012-11-22, 22:29   Link #31219
Kealym
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I'd say accidental. Characters gotta have flaws, after all.

Also, how is Krauss slothful? How is Hideyoshi particularly gluttonous?
Is not Eva ALSO very prideful (in fact, being the one person besides Natsuhi who seems to care about the actual POSITION of the Headship, instead of just the money)? Is Rosa not also described as guilty of lust?

That sort of thing. A correlation is easy to make, but hard to make stick over any other possible correlation.
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Old 2012-11-23, 08:54   Link #31220
Kiltias
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I see.


Well I dunno if its important but just to go sure, originally there were not 7 but 8 sins, the 8th being Sorrow or Despair.

It also says that the 8 sins are evil thoughts that can be collected in 3 groups.
Lustful appetite - Gluttony,Greed and Lust
Irascibility (Resulting from anger) - Wrath
Intellect - Despair/Sorrow,Envy,Sloth and Pride.

You see, isn't it that Battler is the one that never got staked yet still has a sin?
I just find it curious that despite his sin causing all this, he never gets staked by the stakes representing a sin.

Quote:
How is Hideyoshi particularly gluttonous?
I think its because everytime he got staked it was with Beelzebub (Gluttony).

Personally I think Yasu did intend to stake everyone with a pattern.
Imma go by Illusions now as well.
EP 1:
Asmodeus - Eva
Beelzebub - Hideyoshi
Mammon - Kinzo
Satan - Kanon
Lucifer - Genji
Belphegor - Nanjo
Leviathan - Kumasawa

EP 2:
Asmodeus - Jessica
Satan - Kanon
Mammon - Shannon
Beelzebub - Gohda
Lucifer - George
Belphegor - Nanjo
Leviathan - Kumasawa

Compare this to EP 1.

EP 3:
Asmodeus - Rudolf
Beelzebub - Hideyoshi
Mammon - Kyrie
Lucifer - Krauss
Satan - Natsuhi
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