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Old 2012-11-18, 18:33   Link #61
Snuffle
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Originally Posted by TJR View Post
FWIW, there's much confusion over script, storyboard, and animation (which work in concert, of course). I think many players are unsure of what's causing them to be dissatisfied. For instance, I see script decisions being attributed to "direction".
What makes you think that the game players are unsure of what's causing them to be dissatisfied? I really don't understand what made you reach that conclusion.

If you're an anime only viewer then I can understand why you may think that. However, if you're a game player, then I'm really curious as to why you think the game players that are complaining don't know why they're dissatisfied.
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Old 2012-11-18, 19:20   Link #62
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So you don't think that JC Staff invests much of their own money into their anime productions? That's not a rhetorical question, by the way - I'm genuinely curious here.
They don't. Each year, they're a minor partner on a handful of productions (Kill Me Baby and Ano Natsu for this year; probably Little Busters, but I don't know for sure. FWIW, they have no investment in Sakurasou, so there's little reason to spend beyond what the committee gave them), but their model is to avoid investment. It shields them from the financial failure of a production, but it also means that they have to secure large quantities of work on a regular basis.

As you might guess, their primary means of competing is to produce shows fast (which lets them adapt to a client's business schedule where other studios are unable) and often on a low budget. It helps that they succeed with moe characters, plus their ability to handle complex production work (R.O.D., Shana, Index) gives them an edge.

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JC Staff is known to be a "factory studio", and they have had some major hits to their name (especially with the RailDex franchise) so I'd be inclined to think they'd have a significant amount of money on hand. But I'll admit that I could be mistaken there.
You have to ask why they're a factory studio in the first place. Those who make a lot of money (and are open to risk-taking) can slow down and compete on quality.

Each studio has its own mission, and they're out to fulfill a particular demand from the industry. That's even true for low priority productions, where fast and cheap are the orders of the day. Investors don't know what will become a hit, so with low priority stuff, it's all about throwing mud on a wall and seeing what sticks. Cheaper is better, and some studios focus their activities around that.

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Wait, are you saying that KyoAni had absolutely no choice whatsoever when it came to Nichijou, or Hyouka for that matter? There's absolutely no way they could have done LB! in Spring/Summer 2011 instead of Nichijou?
I guess it depends on who they made an agreement with first. The explanation Key got was that KyoAni had already been booked, so changing timeframes couldn't happen without upsetting a client (on Nichijou and Hyouka, Kadokawa was the boss, and they had business plans to meet).

If VisualArt's had been turned down more than once (which is my gut feeling), they probably got the message. KyoAni's priorities lie elsewhere.

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You don't think that KyoAni's "brand profile" has benefited from the Key/KyoAni relationship? I think that KyoAni "brand profile" has benefited considerably from being the animation studio that did Air, Kanon, and Clannad. They basically converted a huge chunk of Key fans into also being KyoAni fans due to successfully adapting these Key properties into anime. The evidence of this is crystal clear in the massive disappointment expressed by numerous Key fans over KyoAni not being the studio to do Little Busters!
That's true if we only look at them as an animation studio as opposed to a content company. Their brand identity is linked to someone else's products (the KyoAni part only identifiable on the basis of workmanship), so the next step is to go beyond that.

Shifting back to video games, it's like a developer gaining a reputation on licensed properties and then moving onto their own work. While Bioware could've stuck with Dungeons & Dragons or Star Wars RPGs, they let go of those in favour of Jade Empire, Mass Effect, and Dragon Age (exception = Star Wars: The Old Republic, which was supposed to kick off a major MMORPG division). As a company, their aspiration was to build their own brands.

Quote:
Also, with "your own IP", you keep the lion's share of the profits, but you also take on more risk, don't you?
They have the money to risk, and their current initiative looks to pay off.

Risking too much can potentially destroy a company, so they'll have to balance between their aspirations and their adaptation work.

Quote:
Not to mention the potential of turning Key fans into JC Staff fans in that same KyoAni way...
It really isn't in J.C.'s hands. Also, I don't think the production was primed for success since it started so late. Either Key was naive (i.e. expecting visual quality close to Index without the time and money for it to happen), or they were extremely concerned about promoting their brand this year. Like other VN companies, they're under increasing pressure to be visible in different markets.

The anime business never fails to surprise or teach me new things, which is why I love it. Sometimes ideas that seem obvious to me as a fan become questionable once the interests of investors (usually several, all with different agendas and motivations), producers, and copyright holders come into play. Whether I like the result or not, I'm trying to gain understanding into why things work out the way they do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snuffle
What makes you think that the game players are unsure of what's causing them to be dissatisfied? I really don't understand what made you reach that conclusion.
I can't speak for all players, but my impression is that there's more vagueness to the concerns than with typical adaptation discussion. Sometimes people feel that something in the execution is off, but they can't pinpoint the precise thing. For example, certain complaints are actually series composition decisions - such as the changes affecting characterization in the long run, as well as the pacing - but they get misattributed to episode direction. In terms of animation, some complaints have to do with storyboard or layout, but budget gets blamed. It's rather messy.
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Old 2012-11-18, 19:43   Link #63
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Originally Posted by TJR View Post
Investors don't know what will become a hit, so with low priority stuff, it's all about throwing mud on a wall and seeing what sticks.
I find this particular argument rather questionable. It seems to me that the most popular source material almost invariably turn into highly successful anime shows. So saying "Investors don't know what will become a hit" seems eyebrow-raising to me. Anybody doing even rudimentary anime market research should know by now that popular source material is much more likely to turn into a well-selling anime show than significantly less popular source material. We see numerous examples of this with Haruhi, the Monogatari Series, SAO, Persona 4, the Key/KyoAni anime shows.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of many anime adaptations of very popular source material properties that didn't go on to be successful anime shows. Heck, even some properties that were widely criticized for being unfaithful (Fate/Stay Night, Shakuga no Shana's second season) went on to be commercially successful.


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If VisualArt's had been turned down more than once (which is my gut feeling), they probably got the message. KyoAni's priorities lie elsewhere.
I agree with you here, and I think there's good reason for fans to seriously question KyoAni's choice to repeatedly turn down VisualArt.

A KyoAni made LB! would almost certainly have pulled down 20K or more sales, based on the proven and consistent track record that we see with Air, Kanon, and Clannad. It would have reinforced the strong brand identity that KyoAni had built in large part due to their Key work. I think that this would certainly be to the benefit of both Key and KyoAni. So I firmly disagree with your argument that KyoAni was right in turning down VisualArt.


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That's true if we only look at them as an animation studio as opposed to a content company. Their brand identity is linked to someone else's products (the KyoAni part only identifiable on the basis of workmanship),
I think you're greatly underestimating the brand name that KyoAni had built up purely on the basis of "someone else's products". And having a reputation for high quality and good workmanship clearly goes a long way.

Prior to Chuunibyou, KyoAni's only "anime original" was Munto, which was a rare commercial failure for KyoAni.

So KyoAni's exceptionally strong repudiation (and we see this in various anime fan-polls, not just on places like Anime Suki) has long rested on "someone else's products".

A year ago this time, who had the better reputation: P.A. Works, with a few prominent and successful anime originals, or KyoAni, who's only anime original was Munto? Would you argue that P.A. Works was seen as a stronger "content company" than KyoAni?


I respect how knowledgeable you are about the anime industry, but I do think there are some things that you are underestimating the value and importance of (or, conversely, I think you might be overestimating the importance of an anime studio having some anime originals to its name - The general lack of them certainly doesn't appear to have held KyoAni back over the past few years).
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Old 2012-11-18, 21:09   Link #64
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Originally Posted by TJR View Post
I can't speak for all players, but my impression is that there's more vagueness to the concerns than with typical adaptation discussion. Sometimes people feel that something in the execution is off, but they can't pinpoint the precise thing. For example, certain complaints are actually series composition decisions - such as the changes affecting characterization in the long run, as well as the pacing - but they get misattributed to episode direction. In terms of animation, some complaints have to do with storyboard or layout, but budget gets blamed. It's rather messy.
Speaking strictly of the Little Busters adaption discussion, the reason it's so vague is because it has to be for a no spoilers thread. It's extremely sensitive information that can't even be hinted at, otherwise, it would just give away what the whole story is about.

It's kinda like revealing the name of Saber's sword in Fate/Stay Night or telling people Archer's real name. It's much too heavy of a spoiler.
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Old 2012-11-18, 22:34   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I find this particular argument rather questionable. It seems to me that the most popular source material almost invariably turn into highly successful anime shows. So saying "Investors don't know what will become a hit" seems eyebrow-raising to me. Anybody doing even rudimentary anime market research should know by now that popular source material is much more likely to turn into a well-selling anime show than significantly less popular source material. We see numerous examples of this with Haruhi, the Monogatari Series, SAO, Persona 4, the Key/KyoAni anime shows.
I'm referring more to low and middle priority stuff, not the most expected of hits. They can't make a reliable prediction, so the tendency is to get most (but not all) of them done cheaply and hope some are successful. People ask why Deen, ZEXCS, or Feel stay in business despite an abundance of non-notable, lower budget work. The answer is right there.....they're here to stay because producers demand low cost services and are satisfied enough with what they get.

Also, popular and well-selling doesn't mean every investor benefits a lot. A manga publisher invests to sell print media, so success that's localized to anime may not be of great interest to them. It's a problem that many visual novels face.......with proper treatment, Little Busters may be an expected hit, but do partner companies believe they have much to gain?

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A KyoAni made LB! would almost certainly have pulled down 20K or more sales, based on the proven and consistent track record that we see with Air, Kanon, and Clannad. It would have reinforced the strong brand identity that KyoAni had built in large part due to their Key work. I think that this would certainly be to the benefit of both Key and KyoAni.
KyoAni knew what they would lose, and they made a bet to gain something different.

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I think you're greatly underestimating the brand name that KyoAni had built up purely on the basis of "someone else's products". And having a reputation for high quality and good workmanship clearly goes a long way.
No disagreement there. However, if KyoAni were to stay on an adaptation-only track, that's all they would ever accomplish. The company probably asked themselves why they'd settle for "good workmanship" when they could make a bid for "good workmanship and property ownership"? The two aren't mutually exclusive, and KyoAni shows no sign of abandoning its reputation for quality. Neither are they abandoning adaptation projects altogether.

In short, they have a broader vision than what some fans may like. Perhaps this will bite them in the ass one day, but with Chuunibyou, they have little to complain about.

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So I firmly disagree with your argument that KyoAni was right in turning down VisualArt.
To clarify, I hold no opinion on whether they were "right" to turn down VisualArt's. I don't think there's even a right or wrong. The choice was whether to stick to a tried and true path or to further their interests as a company. Both options are different but perfectly valid (one being a short-term guarantee, the other a potentially longer term benefit that may be more interesting to them). The choice they made seems to be working out.....it could've failed, but they're on their way to establishing their first successful property.

If that's what they want to do, then more power to them. I disagree that letting LB! go was dumb when the alternative is turning out well.

Adaptations aren't the only way to please fans, and the decision on Little Busters isn't going to make or break their business.

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Prior to Chuunibyou, KyoAni's only "anime original" was Munto, which was a rare commercial failure for KyoAni.
They're taking a balanced approach while maintaining quality throughout. They have huge moneymakers in K-ON! and the Haruhi movie, strong client relationships through Nichijou/Hyouka/etc., and some room for experimentation. To accomplish this, something had to be turned down.

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A year ago this time, who had the better reputation: P.A. Works, with a few prominent anime originals, or KyoAni, who's only anime original was Munto? Would you argue that P.A. Works was seen as a stronger "content company" than KyoAni?
I'm not sure where we're going here. Even now, the reputations of both companies are firmly grounded in production quality and know-how. KyoAni has no reputation as an independent creator or IP owner (take away all production aspects, and what do we have left?), while P.A. Works is too new of a player.
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Old 2012-11-18, 23:45   Link #66
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At a perverse level, the negativity regarding Little Busters has just been so entertaining to me. To be honest, I think now that the Kyoani exceptionalism is absent (No gorgeous visuals) KEY is really being evaluated for what it truly is: a mediocre visual novel company.

Much of Clannad was very similar to little busters in that the side routes were mostly forgettable, with few highlights. You also either rolled with the slapstick humor or it whiffed completely. It's funny for me to see the very same complaints I levied against Clannad much to that fanbase's chagrin be said here and elsewhere.

This is putting aside source material fans who always seem to be displeased no matter what show it is.
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Old 2012-11-19, 05:06   Link #67
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At a perverse level, the negativity regarding Little Busters has just been so entertaining to me. To be honest, I think now that the Kyoani exceptionalism is absent (No gorgeous visuals) KEY is really being evaluated for what it truly is: a mediocre visual novel company.
I can't speak for others...but in my case the complaints I have are about the anime NOT following the VN...which in no way puts down the VN but rather the poor execution of the anime team.

If this anime is inferior to Kyoani versions of other KEY VN...why would fault fall on KEY?
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Old 2012-11-19, 06:50   Link #68
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Where KyoAni had a choice, they went with Chuunibyou (for which they're lead investor in collaboration with TBS/Pony Canyon......unlike the Kadokawa and Key stuff, this isn't a work-for-hire effort in which they make a show primarily to benefit a partner company), which is their own IP. Successfully establishing your own properties is any company's dream since you raise your brand profile and keep the lion's share of the profits.
Is there really any offer that the people who own the rights to Nichijou and Hyouka have that could compete with proven juggernauts like Lucky Star and Haruhi that would make animating the former a wiser monetary decision for their company? Are they interested in getting little kids and mystery fans interested in all their products too? I ask because in my simplistic mind, Kyoani seems to be selfish in that they don't want the guaranteed 20k+ sales they'd get in animating a new season of Lucky Star or Haruhi, which both have so much more material now since what they've aired (LS has like 5 more volumes now with a ton of new characters?). Rather they seem to animating a lot of different types of works to keep things fun and fresh for the staff, not necessarily what's best for the companies bottom line. I think we're lucky to have gotten Clannad, I bet someone in that company has a soft spot for Key's works, because Haruhi and LS were selling a lot better at the time they were doing Clannad. That person is either gone or just bored of animating Key works, that's what I think.

I agree to a certain extent though. I think Nichijou and the moderate success that is Hyouka has changed them. They want sustained profits so they can continue to adapt whatever the heck they want. Chuunibyou looks like a money grab to me, if it's successful I'd speculate that they'll probably try and adapt even more shows that go against the grain of what we're used to seeing by them. Maybe if they have a lot of bombs we'd actually see a real new season of Haruhi (Not that Endless eight junk.) I mean there's no way a new season of Lucky Star or Haruhi with it's 20k+ sales and the demand it creates for character goods(For new characters as well.), that would make delving into shonen comedies or slice of life mysteries make sense? I think they take on different types of works, instead of hammering their big successes, to satisfy the staffs creative urges, not their pockets. Is this too naive? Has Kyoani ever talked about why they decided to go with Nichijou or Hyouka? If I were concerned about the companies well being, I don't see how I would ever make that decision, maybe Nichijou if I wanted to test my boundaries on what I could make while still being successful, but then to come back with a light mystery seems off to me.

Now for some LB talk (No spoilers, but I will talk about typical VN structure.). This episode was probably my favorite episode so far since episode 2. The preview for Ep 8 is all about Kud, so it looks like they're finally going to introduce all of the characters properly now. I loved it when Kyoani would tease all of the characters and their routes inside of just one episode. They'd get a little bit of every heroine which is much truer to how a session playing the VN feels. I actually get disappointed sometimes transitioning into a characters route, there was never any transition here since it was so short! This episode is still lacking a true common route feel, but this is at least close. They should have been doing this from the start. This show is based on a VN, and as VNs typically go, you get to know all the characters first before you have to choose one and focus on their route. To cram the common route into three episodes or skip most of the common route is just a recipe for disaster. A good VN adaptation just can't enter a character's route so early. Especially with one episode perplexingly thrown in there that focuses solely on another heroine. The way they chopped the scenes up and allocated them in the first six eps, IMO is a disaster. At least as far as it pertains to be being as good as the VN from my standpoint. But it's all about expectations, I loved Komari's route in the VN. Not so much Haruka's route, so maybe I'll enjoy that? who knows.

For as much flack that J.C. Staff is getting, now this is ironic - I'm finding Sakurasou to be my favorite show so far this season. To me, the animation isn't the most important thing. Just from watching LB, I can tell you that comedic timing, scene placement, character development, plot development are far more important. This episode had much better comedic timing on the most part, but the scenes before the OP still had far too many lame jokes, a really good anime shouldn't have to make me disregard the first 4 minutes to enjoy the rest. If I were the type to roll my eyes, this anime adaptation would make my eyes roll way too much. Some of the jokes are inherently lame, but there's a way to make them funnier, that Key and Kyoani are experts at. J.C. does some good things too though. I think my favorite thing about the anime so far is the ED sequence, probably the most artistic thing I've seen from J.C.'s LB so far.

On a sidenote, I preordered the First print limited edition of Vol.1 from Amiami. They're "unable to obtain a copy from their usual distributors" maybe that doesn't mean anything about the sales, but that would seem to imply that the usual distributors have sold out. Maybe a good thing for sales? I like Chuunibyou, but it'd give me some sort of sick satisfaction to see LB do better than Chuu2byo.

Sorry. I made a tldr.

Last edited by Ceral; 2012-11-19 at 07:01.
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Old 2012-11-19, 07:10   Link #69
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
At a perverse level, the negativity regarding Little Busters has just been so entertaining to me. To be honest, I think now that the Kyoani exceptionalism is absent (No gorgeous visuals) KEY is really being evaluated for what it truly is: a mediocre visual novel company.

Much of Clannad was very similar to little busters in that the side routes were mostly forgettable, with few highlights. You also either rolled with the slapstick humor or it whiffed completely. It's funny for me to see the very same complaints I levied against Clannad much to that fanbase's chagrin be said here and elsewhere.

This is putting aside source material fans who always seem to be displeased no matter what show it is.
This seems like an unfair characterization. If you want to consider VN's that have crappy side routes to be mediocre, then that's nearly all of them. I'm not saying KEY is the best VN maker ever, but calling them mediocre despite having some of the best endings is kinda silly.

Regarding this episode, I thought it worked mostly pretty well. However, I felt the pacing was kinda loose. Still, it was not bad. I always find Masato hilarious.
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Old 2012-11-19, 07:33   Link #70
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
At a perverse level, the negativity regarding Little Busters has just been so entertaining to me. To be honest, I think now that the Kyoani exceptionalism is absent (No gorgeous visuals) KEY is really being evaluated for what it truly is: a mediocre visual novel company.

Much of Clannad was very similar to little busters in that the side routes were mostly forgettable, with few highlights. You also either rolled with the slapstick humor or it whiffed completely. It's funny for me to see the very same complaints I levied against Clannad much to that fanbase's chagrin be said here and elsewhere.

This is putting aside source material fans who always seem to be displeased no matter what show it is.

I am sure all the negative comments about LB is more about the anime adaptation itself rather than the original work.
Plus i don't see any relations between "poor/average animation" of the LB anime made by J.C. staff and the company that originally brought us LB: Key. That's like saying that Minato soft is a bad company because of the MajiKoi anime or Navel for the OreTsuba anime.

I also think that you might not have read any Key VN's when you made that comment, seeing that the "Key games" are more praised for their story rather than the art (atleast I am not that much of a fan for the art in their games)

I think that some people forgot that the first Kanon anime was animated by Toei and it did end up selling very well, despite that the animation was far from really good.

edit: the current discussion doesn't seem directly related to episode 7 anymore, but it looks more like something for the general discussion

Last edited by hyl; 2012-11-19 at 07:45.
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Old 2012-11-19, 18:18   Link #71
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
At a perverse level, the negativity regarding Little Busters has just been so entertaining to me. To be honest, I think now that the Kyoani exceptionalism is absent (No gorgeous visuals) KEY is really being evaluated for what it truly is: a mediocre visual novel company.

Much of Clannad was very similar to little busters in that the side routes were mostly forgettable, with few highlights. You also either rolled with the slapstick humor or it whiffed completely. It's funny for me to see the very same complaints I levied against Clannad much to that fanbase's chagrin be said here and elsewhere.

This is putting aside source material fans who always seem to be displeased no matter what show it is.
Well, the first time something is done, it has some kind of novelty. Sure, Key hasn't changed much from their methods but evidently their gambit of making people care for their characters via pathos won't work if the character wasn't appealing or interesting in the first place. But you said it yourself, it either works or it didn't. Though I guess pretty visuals sometimes tip the factor.

But you can't really expect someone to repeat the same repetitious content 4 times over. What is this? Diablo 3?

Though for me personally none of them really worked til the 1/2 point. Or I guess 1/4 for Clannad.
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Old 2012-11-19, 20:23   Link #72
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I am sure all the negative comments about LB is more about the anime adaptation itself rather than the original work.
Plus i don't see any relations between "poor/average animation" of the LB anime made by J.C. staff and the company that originally brought us LB: Key. That's like saying that Minato soft is a bad company because of the MajiKoi anime or Navel for the OreTsuba anime.
I think the MajiKoi visual novel is actually really good and criticisms of that adaption are fair since it wasn't even really an adaption (None of the VN content is really in the anime, it's an all new story). Little Busters is actually adapting the content, so the comparison isn't a very good one to begin with.

I played Little Busters, and while they certainly take liberties here with the order in which they adapt the content (Which some people have criticized and well time will tell if their choices are the right one), the content itself that is being adapted can be criticized for being almost TOO faithful.

Then there are several complaints throughout, by both source readers and some anime viewers, about some of the humor not being funny, for the drama lacking impact, or other things. What is a lot of this attributed to? JC staff. They even make backhanded comments like "if only that other studio" (Who rejected this project) was doing it...

I don't care if people want to criticize the anime here. I just find it funny how something that's awfully similar in style and content to clannad gets smeared while that anime got praised. This is why I raised the point of kyoani exceptionalism, since it seems they get praise for doing things that are really no different from what we see here.

I won't argue that KyoAni would probably do much better visuals, but as far as story composition and direction goes... I don't believe we'd see much different.

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But you can't really expect someone to repeat the same repetitious content 4 times over. What is this? Diablo 3?
Well if the criticisms were phrased as such, but that wasn't exactly what I was getting at

I was just trying to express bemusement at the apparent negativity of this show for many of the same reasons I found myself disoriented when I first watched Clannad.

Not saying the criticisms are unfair. I thought Komari's arc was bad. As for this episode, well there isn't a whole lot to say. Lots of slapstick humor and more cutesy KEY character exposition. Very typical stuff for them.
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Old 2012-11-19, 20:53   Link #73
Ceral
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All you have to do is watch Kanon 2002 vs 2006 to know how much a difference things like timing, presentation, and adding more scenes and doing them right helps. IIRC both were faithful to the original. 2002 was enjoyable enough but 2006 is in a different ballpark. Toei just makes everything cheesy as hell. I've said it before in the first or second episode thread, J.C.s adaptation reminds me of Toei's adaptations. I love the VN but the anime is average so far. Komari's route is beautiful and magical to me in the VN, even if I read it now, but the whole Komari Komari Ganbare in the anime was lame.

As to whether Key makes only average VNs. let's just put it this way, Kanon 2002 didn't do 10kish sales because the anime was a masterpiece, it's because the VN is so great and has so many admirers.
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Old 2012-11-20, 07:17   Link #74
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I think the MajiKoi visual novel is actually really good and criticisms of that adaption are fair since it wasn't even really an adaption (None of the VN content is really in the anime, it's an all new story). Little Busters is actually adapting the content, so the comparison isn't a very good one to begin with.
No, my point was that the original VN company does not seem to have that much control what an animation studio does with their work. So calling Key average for the things that J.C. staff messed up is quite unfair. I don't think it is just the visuals that J.C. staff did wrong but the other things related to presentation as well. Like seen in the previous episodes, Komari's story would have benefitted if it was less "rushed".

I used the examples of Majikoi and OreTsuba, because those 2 VN's had excellent story that got "butchered" in the adaptation.

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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I played Little Busters, and while they certainly take liberties here with the order in which they adapt the content (Which some people have criticized and well time will tell if their choices are the right one), the content itself that is being adapted can be criticized for being almost TOO faithful.
For being "too faithfull", the anime has been cutting lots of things. While this is not the place to discuss about that, i can already say that i don't agree with some of things that were left out(or maybe they were reordered for later, but i am not sure how that will work out).
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Old 2012-11-20, 19:02   Link #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I played Little Busters, and while they certainly take liberties here with the order in which they adapt the content (Which some people have criticized and well time will tell if their choices are the right one), the content itself that is being adapted can be criticized for being almost TOO faithful.
I completely disagree: while they initially went on the slow tangeant, packing the intro as much as they could, the script and storyboard are completely on the opposite side starting episode 3. In fact, I hardly recognize some characters and events due to how they were adapted (main victims: Riki, Rin, Haruka, Masato and Yuiko).
Talking more about it would require discussing it in the comparison spoiler thread, but several of us already noted how they changed things, to the point bigger concerns are at stake than simply "quality issues".
Quote:
I don't care if people want to criticize the anime here. I just find it funny how something that's awfully similar in style and content to clannad gets smeared while that anime got praised. This is why I raised the point of kyoani exceptionalism, since it seems they get praise for doing things that are really no different from what we see here.

I won't argue that KyoAni would probably do much better visuals, but as far as story composition and direction goes... I don't believe we'd see much different.
Like Ceral said, timing, presentation, etc are a huge factor. For starters, the timing of some jokes are literally off in the anime (mostly Masato's muscle jokes, and the title), but the way how things are shown definitely change a lot.
I for one would rather have something more akin to "showing HP bar" which would actually make the fighting scene more of a "game" than being just "action" going on.

Also, Ceral took a very good example: Kanon 2002 and 2006 are completely different, despite both are faithful (although some parts in Toei version are totally whacky, such like in Mai's route). It is really the direction that changes a toncrap, and frankly, LB anime has a lot of miss parts I doubt it is just the original novel.
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Old 2012-11-20, 20:35   Link #76
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Regarding the composition of the story, it's probably worth mentioning again that all of the episodes so far have been written by same writer who also did the overall adaptation/story planning, which is itself extremely unusual for a 2-cour (+) show. (I don't know if she will end up doing the script for the entire 26-episode run, plus the next season, but if so, it'd be pretty-damn impressive for a TV anime.) So I think the elements that people don't like about the script treatment are probably attributable a lot (entirely?) to the lead writer. And, as a reminder of the conversations that happened before the anime started airing, the writer does not work for J.C.Staff and has never worked on a J.C.Staff show before; from what Key stated, she was selected with their approval based on her work on long-running adaptations of classic/well-known literature.

As much as people complain about the "budget", spending the time and money necessary to have a single writer do so much of the script for a weekly anime requires a lot of trust and dedication. It'd be a lot more financially-efficient (if they just didn't care) to have someone generate a rough outline and have sub-writers do the episode scripts, as happens for most shows. We also know that Key themselves said in the past that they had come up with the "trick" to make a TV adaptation of Little Busters work as far as the story goes, so we don't know how much of the story layout was also done under their influence, not to mention the have also said that they are also consulting on the writing on an on-going basis as well.

So all that to say... I think that a) they probably do have a plan in terms of what they're doing with the story and b) whatever that plan is doesn't sound like it has much to do with J.C.Staff. So I tend to agree that even just changing the animation production studio may not have changed the aspects of the story presentation that some people dislike. (However, I tend to think that some people may be more forgiving of the story issues if a) they had more faith in the production company, and b) if there were pretty animation to talk about. I think there is a lot of angst among some VN readers right now because the anime is not as popular as they think it deserves to be, and they are looking for people to blame.)

Now the way that script is adapted into anime (the storyboarding, direction, etc.) is obviously more under J.C. Staff's control. I think it's interesting that three of the seven episodes so far have had their storyboarding done by the main director, which is what was expected based on him having been chosen (he was seen as a very "hands-on" director). Perhaps the nature of this is also that, if you don't really gel with the main director's style, you'll just have to live with it, because his style has a large influence on the way everything goes. If this does indeed end up being a split 52-episode show (which is how it's looking), I suppose people will likely get used to it eventually (or they won't).

Regarding the comparisons between Sakurasou and Little Busters in terms of production values... I honestly would be surprised if one show has that much of a bigger budget than the other (notwithstanding that Little Busters may be scheduled for double the episode count, so would have needed double the investment from the production partners). I really do think it's a) the experience and skill of the staff involved, and b) the techniques used to mask the budget. The digital compositing and 2D effects in Sakurasou are top-notch and adds a sort of "shininess" to everything that Little Busters doesn't have. Meanwhile, Little Busters commits the "sin" of falling back on some really well-known and much-ridiculed shortcut techniques (like speed lines and still frames) that are obvious, while they seem to focus a bit more on things that are a bit less commented-on or obvious (like smoother character animation).

Anyway, it'll be nice when the story picks up enough steam that this will be the main focus rather than the production values.
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Old 2012-11-20, 22:18   Link #77
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I also hope that the constant criticisms get toned down at least by Episode 13. For some reason, looking for a discussion amongst anime-only watchers and stumbling upon six or so episode discussions teeming with negative opinions can be quite disheartening.
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Old 2012-11-21, 09:49   Link #78
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Still, it seems that alot of Anime Only viewers are dropping in left and right. The only reason why I haven't dropped this yet is because I looked up Little Busters on TVtropes a year or so ago. But most anime-only viewers with a "No Spoiler" viewing policy seems to be dropping, or are on the verge of dropping LB, judging by the content of the recent Episdodic Threads.

The worse case scenario is actually, that criticism for Episode 13 would be toned down, BECAUSE the most critical Anime viewers decided to abandon Little Busters. And it has happened for quite a few anime too mind you: for example, Medaka Box First season came under amazing amounts of flak, which slacken off towards the end (as well as in it's second season), largely because most of the Flak issuers dropped that show by then.

Ultimately, of course, the Fate of the LB adaptation is in the hands of the Japanese Viewer market, and I wonder whether the mood towards the adaptation is just as vitriolic over there. It's one thing for the English Speaking Animesuki, MAL or Anime Bloggers listed on Animenano to be dropping or condemning LB. But it's fate, as it is with all anime adaptations, hangs on the Japanese Market, and not so much the English one.
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Old 2012-11-21, 19:13   Link #79
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^ One side of me is saying "good riddance" for those who haven't truly enjoyed the series despite its clear flaws in direction, but the other side mourns the lack of a decent discussion for the series.

I can probably say that Little Busters! is the biggest tragedy of the Autumn 2012 anime season.
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Old 2012-11-21, 19:36   Link #80
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At least it's not as bad as the Hayate thread... I guess it's considered lucky that posts go above 10 per episode topic over there...
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