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Old 2012-11-21, 12:51   Link #2381
King-Slayer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teja208 View Post
You mean something similar to when Touka faced her during the prefectural final? At least, Kuro would definitely set her eyes on a certain part.

IMO Shizu and Ako are pretty much better off with their respective positions. Shizu needs to prove herself worthy for Nodoka by defeating Saki and she's pretty much looking forward to it. As for Ako, I bet she can learn a thing or two from her match against Hisa, assuming that the latter is in her top form.
Exactly. Touka was too distracted in her match to play the way she normally does and took more damage than i think she would've. Same thing i think would happen to Achiga if they faced Nodoka. And i agree with Ako and Shizu being better off.
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Old 2012-11-22, 00:33   Link #2382
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Ahaha! The new pro card is awesome!

Spoiler for The Gunpowder:


If you guys don't get the joke, I seriously recommend you guys reading Saki Biyori.
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Old 2012-11-22, 01:01   Link #2383
Requiem-x
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Originally Posted by ahelo View Post
I'm pretty sure they knew Nodoka would be 4th since Achiga did so much research on Kiyosumi to the point that they battled all their opponents in the finals of the regional tournament. I'd say that Achiga prioritized having the perfect line-up over who battles Nodoka. It is pretty lol though that it's gonna be Arata who faces Nodoka even though she's the one who knows her the least.
It's pretty appropiate, actually, since that means she'll go out against her without pesky childhood memories getting in the way, and like someone else said, Saki is Shizu's rival to beat, not Nodoka, she doesn't particularly want to fight her, which is strange considering how much of a shounen character Shizu is, now that I think about it.

By the way, wouldn't it be awesome if Arata's dated style ends messing up Nodoka? Like, it's such an old tyle she's never seen it online, so she doesn't know how to respond? No, I'm not in Nodoka hate mode now, I just think it would be interesting to see.
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Old 2012-11-22, 03:18   Link #2384
arsonal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serperior View Post
Ahaha! The new pro card is awesome!

Spoiler for The Gunpowder:


If you guys don't get the joke, I seriously recommend you guys reading Saki Biyori.


At least we know some characters are wearing pants in this series.
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Old 2012-11-22, 14:14   Link #2385
Serperior
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Originally Posted by arsonal View Post


At least we know some characters are wearing pants in this series.
Pants and pansu are two different things. Besides, if girls in this series doesn't wear pansy, I doubt guys either.

Also, does anyone here read Saki Biyori? The image is 10x more hilarious if you read it. (It was for me... anyway. When I saw that the last pro was the Gunpowder, I practically hoped that it would happen. Studio Gokumi did not disappoint!)

Oh, and here's Achiga's current score:

Spoiler for Side-A current Semi-final scores as at Round 2, South 2:


And here's the total tally for the Side-B match:

Spoiler for Results:


From the score, you can clearly see how Teru absolutely dominated her match.

Omake:

Spoiler for Ritz Toki and Ryuuka:
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Old 2012-11-22, 14:58   Link #2386
King-Slayer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serperior View Post

Also, does anyone here read Saki Biyori? The image is 10x more hilarious if you read it. (It was for me... anyway. When I saw that the last pro was the Gunpowder, I practically hoped that it would happen. Studio Gokumi did not disappoint!)
I think most of us read it or at least i do. But we rarely talk about it.
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Old 2012-11-22, 15:55   Link #2387
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That point margin is now in the 'gettable' bracket for the entire table now. Good job Ritz, working on two TV series and two major manga works would tax the hell out of me. I know from the experience of writing fiction for the past six and a half years (mostly NC-17 ecchi stuff but some PG-vanilla too) that having a handle on a single story is hard and finding time to do so is often harder. This is sometimes overlooked in appraisals of works we find in the anime/manga community.
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Old 2012-11-22, 20:00   Link #2388
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Quote:
Also, does anyone here read Saki Biyori? The image is 10x more hilarious if you read it.
I've also read it but I don't think I understand the joke. Maybe I should re-read the whole manga now

Spoiler:
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Old 2012-11-22, 20:18   Link #2389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Himmel View Post
I've also read it but I don't think I understand the joke. Maybe I should re-read the whole manga now

Spoiler:
*in regards to the spoilered picture*

Give Teru your brain, for she hungers!
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Old 2012-11-22, 20:34   Link #2390
tarajis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serperior View Post
Oh, and here's Achiga's current score:

Spoiler for Side-A current Semi-final scores as at Round 2, South 2:


And here's the total tally for the Side-B match:

Spoiler for Results:

Comparing Side A team and Side B team lineups, I have to say that the Achiga girls have it easy... the only challenge Achiga has is in their semi-final where they have to take second place to meet Nodoka (taking 1st place is near impossible for obvious reasons)...

Side B is clearly infested with monster teams... I'm not saying that Senriyama and Shindouji are weak teams but Kiyosumi faced teams at same level if not better than those two and it's only the quarter-final... now when semifinal comes for Side B... Kiyosumi will be taking on Rinkai ranked two if I'm not mistaken... Usuzan, a first time school but favored highly by a pro (forgot her name but one thing I remember clearly about her... the boobs ) and Himematsu a team that Saki addresses as the most troublesome team in their quarterfinal...

And more one thing that Side B dominates... on the boobs department... Eisui can take on the whole Side A teams combined...
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Old 2012-11-22, 21:02   Link #2391
teja208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarajis View Post
Comparing Side A team and Side B team lineups, I have to say that the Achiga girls have it easy... the only challenge Achiga has is in their semi-final where they have to take second place to meet Nodoka (taking 1st place is near impossible for obvious reasons)...

Side B is clearly infested with monster teams... I'm not saying that Senriyama and Shindouji are weak teams but Kiyosumi faced teams at same level if not better than those two and it's only the quarter-final... now when semifinal comes for Side B... Kiyosumi will be taking on Rinkai ranked two if I'm not mistaken... Usuzan, a first time school but favored highly by a pro (forgot her name but one thing I remember clearly about her... the boobs ) and Himematsu a team that Saki addresses as the most troublesome team in their quarterfinal...

And more one thing that Side B dominates... on the boobs department... Eisui can take on the whole Side A teams combined...
Not just the boobs, Side A also lacks extreme underdeveloped characters like Hatsumi and Nelly. It's unfortunate for Kuro that she has to go up against Teru twice and never get a chance to get a good glimpes of those booby monsters. The best she can get from Side A is Shiraitodai's Takami with her slightly big ones.
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Old 2012-11-23, 00:42   Link #2392
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Side A: The Badass Normals vs Side B: The Fetishy Superfreaks
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Old 2012-11-23, 01:13   Link #2393
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I'm quite fond of side A's badass normals. The two 'normals' (FunaQ and Mairu) are currently making quite an idiot out of Matano, who would otherwise be a really potent ability user even on the B side. Besides, Toki could compete with and exceed Toyone/Kasumi anyday. If nothing else, it shows that both teams would be a very strong contender even on side B.

Side B pretty much needs their booby monsters to compete with Kiyosumi, who is such a hax team that any of their five members now - including post "took a level in badass" Yuuki - would be instant star players (if not the ace) if you shuffle them onto any other team except maybe Shirotodai/Rinkai.

(Incidentally, all of the "booby monsters" so far seems to be monstrous players. Forget not wearing panties - clearly surgery is the one solution to developing freaky mahjong superpowers.)
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Old 2012-11-23, 01:43   Link #2394
orangejuicetang
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Himmel View Post
I've also read it but I don't think I understand the joke. Maybe I should re-read the whole manga now

Spoiler:
A Saki Biyori chapter on Teru's team?

YES YES YES YES YES
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Old 2012-11-23, 02:37   Link #2395
King-Slayer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felyndiira View Post
Besides, Toki could compete with and exceed Toyone/Kasumi anyday.
I dunno about exceeding Toyone/Kasumi but she could easily compete with them. Kasumi usually plays great defense but her goddess pretty powerful. Toki could exceed Kasumi with a lot of effort i guess. However saying anything about Toyone is premature because we haven't seen all of her abilities. The ones she has shown she could, we just don't know if she's got something more powerful up her sleave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
A Saki Biyori chapter on Teru's team?

YES YES YES YES YES
Thats not a Biyori, it looks more like an extra from the volumes.
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Old 2012-11-23, 04:16   Link #2396
Felyndiira
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Originally Posted by King-Slayer View Post
I dunno about exceeding Toyone/Kasumi but she could easily compete with them. Kasumi usually plays great defense but her goddess pretty powerful. Toki could exceed Kasumi with a lot of effort i guess. However saying anything about Toyone is premature because we haven't seen all of her abilities. The ones she has shown she could, we just don't know if she's got something more powerful up her sleave.
I would say that Toki's ability is more powerful than Kasumi's in general. Both of them have excellent defense - Toki is also unable to deal into a hand unless if it's on purpose (SUBARA-chan) or if she has her ability negated by even bigger ability hax (Teru - and even then it's very limited). In fact, with her ability she should be able to, when the occasion is favorable, even shift the flow/give enough hints to an opponent's waits to prevent other players from dealing into a hand. With her ability, Kasumi has to rely entirely on completing her own hands and doesn't show the greatest speed in doing so, while Toki is much more flexible in adjusting her playing style. Basically, Toki = Kasumi in defense while Toki > Kasumi in offense.

I agree that we've only seen 3/6 of Toyone's abilities so far; it's possible that she has some really nasty trick up her sleeve, but it's very difficult to overcome Toki's future reading without some kind of perfected board control. Given that Toyone was portrayed as pretty much helpless against Kasumi's suit control and Saki's board control, I would be inclined to believe that none of her abilities would give her enough table control to overcome Toki's future sight. Also, Toyone's abilities so far are very specialized, so based on precedence, it's not entirely unreasonable to assume that her other three abilities are similar.

If we look at the uber monster class players in the tournament, pretty much all of their abilities are VERY generalized and involve some form of heavy table control. Koromo could make everyone else fail to ever get tempai AND can sense the point values and waits on every opponent's hand; Jindai demonstrated the ability to make people draw whatever tiles she needs at the time; Saki could mod everyone else's scores and hands if not obstructed (and has demonstrated an implied ability to sense other people's magic mahjong - from when she specifically made a counter to Koromo's senses); and Teru gives a solid middle finger to anything you try to do against her. Toki's abilities are less powerful than the ones mentioned, but still extremely general - it would be very difficult for someone with specialized abilities to stop her (and even if they could, Toki would still be a better ace just on the account that her ability allows her to perform well against a diverse number of opponents).
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Old 2012-11-23, 06:58   Link #2397
night_sentinel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felyndiira View Post
I would say that Toki's ability is more powerful than Kasumi's in general. Both of them have excellent defense - Toki is also unable to deal into a hand unless if it's on purpose (SUBARA-chan) or if she has her ability negated by even bigger ability hax (Teru - and even then it's very limited). In fact, with her ability she should be able to, when the occasion is favorable, even shift the flow/give enough hints to an opponent's waits to prevent other players from dealing into a hand. With her ability, Kasumi has to rely entirely on completing her own hands and doesn't show the greatest speed in doing so, while Toki is much more flexible in adjusting her playing style. Basically, Toki = Kasumi in defense while Toki > Kasumi in offense.
While I do agree that Toki's ability is hax - I don't think that it exceeds Kasumi's and Toyone's by a wide margin. They're more or less in the same tier for me.

For example:
Toki's Defense = Kasumi's Defense
We agree on this, both Toki and Kasumi cannot be directly hit by virtue of their abilities. Toki would see the hit before it came and avoid it (except when she called riichi and thus can't) and Kasumi's opponents cannot make a hand that will be able to hit Kasumi (except when the wait in question is an honor tile).

Toki's Offense < Kasumi's Offense
This is where we are going to argue. I believe that Kasumi's offense is actually better than Toki's.

Kasumi should be faster than Toki when making her hand since she only draws from one suit. By the laws of probability she should be filling her waits very fast. On the other hand, Toki's one-turn precognition wasn't really that helpful in getting to tenpai early.This became evident to me when I played Saki style mahjong irl with my friends meaning we are able to "cheat" legally in certain ways. I picked Toki's ability a couple of times and to my eternal disappointment seeing what tile I'm going to get next turn wasn't very helpful in hand building except in certain situations.

Beside that, another offensive advantage that Kasumi has is the size of her score. Kasumi only draws a certain suit meaning she is guaranteed to get a flush (6 han) or a half-flush( 3 han) every single time along with whatever other yaku her hand can make. This meant Kasumi's hand is always going to be the size of a mangan and above.

Toki's Cooperative Play > Kasumi's Cooperative Play
I think this is what you are arguing in your post where Toki is ahead of Kasumi and I agree - Toki's cooperative play is miles ahead of Kasumi's. Kasumi's ability by its nature takes her out of the equation and almost makes the game like a 3p mahjong. There is no cooperation there.

As your post indicate, Toki one-turn precognition makes it very easy for her to cooperate with the other players. Of course, cooperation is only useful in certain situations wherein you need to stop an overwhelming player like Teru. For most of the matches, I think that its every player for herself.

Toki's stamina < Kasumi's stamina
I believe the biggest disadvantage that Toki has right now is her weak stamina. Toki can't use her ability indefinitely. In a team match, this isn't much of a disadvantage since you only need to play 2 hanchans a day, but this is a very big limitation in the individuals matches where you have to play all day.




Breaking it down like this, I just realized how hax Kasumi was. Forgot it in the wake of Saki's rampage on the table.

Anyway, I believe in most situations, it would be like this:
Kasumi > Toki

On the other hand, if you're facing a monster like Teru or Koromo or Saki and can obtain the cooperation of at least one player, I believe Toki's ability is more useful than Kasumi's.

Last edited by night_sentinel; 2012-11-23 at 07:27.
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Old 2012-11-23, 09:38   Link #2398
Felyndiira
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I apologize for not quoting. Typing on my iPhone at work at the moment.

Spoiler:


Basically, my argument is that Toki is much better simply because her ability is flexible, while Kasumi's power locks her into doing one thing for the rest of the match. Kasumi you can mitigate by keeping honors and occasionally using honor tiles as a wait (making her hesitate on honor tiles so that she's forced into defense), while you can't really do anything against Toki other than hope she doesn't get good hands.
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Old 2012-11-23, 10:39   Link #2399
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Originally Posted by Felyndiira View Post
Stamina isn't an issue for Toki. She was able to finish the quarterfinal game with no problem, so as long as she doesn't double/triple accel, she should be fine.
This was show in the anime (ep 5?) that Toki did have problem with stamina towards the end of her match, even when play against easy opponents and not using double/triple.
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Old 2012-11-23, 12:04   Link #2400
night_sentinel
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Don't worry about quoting, I think we can follow our arguments pretty well anyway. That and I have a feeling were going to have long quotes...

Anyway let's try this again. From the top.

Toki's Defense >= Kasumi's Defense
I still say that Toki and Kasumi's defense are about equal. But, I do concede that there will be certain cases that Toki's defense is better than Kasumi since as long as Toki does not ever call a riichi she won't be hit due to her ability. On the other hand, Kasumi can still be hit if she throws honor tiles. Advantage to Toki.

Since offense is such an ambiguous term let's try to break it down into components such as speed and firepower.

Toki's Speed < Kasumi's Speed
Kasumi hand formation should be fast. She only has one suit and honors to choose from. Unless Toki actively bends probability toward her like certain monsters, there is absolutely no way that she could be faster than Kasumi. Statistically, Kasumi should form her hand faster than Toki.

I just went and checked the manga again and Kasumi win somewhere around the 7th-8th turn. That is almost like TERU. If you look at the discards, the wins in the quarterfinal captain south round that is shown is really really fast. Most of the wins that thwarted Kasumi, which was shown, happens before the 6th go around.


Toki's firepower < Kasumi's firepower
Beside, the ridiculous speed, Kasumi as I've said before will get a mangan every time. She is guaranteed a score of 8,000 points or higher. Even without a dora or other yaku for that matter, Kasumi could try to have a half flush every time and she'll still get a high score. On the other hand if she got a flush, she'll be getting about 12,000 points or more.

And yeah she could build a nine gate hand using her power which is a yakuman. Of course, this would be a bit harder. But, no yakuman is suppose to be easy anyway.


Toki's table control > Kasumi's table control
I changed the name to table control. I think the term cooperative play may have devalued what I think of Toki's ability since it implies that she needs others to win. I apologize if I gave the impression.

Anyway, it is without a doubt that Toki has very good table control due to the amount of information she has. She has more information like what tile she will get and she knows what her opponents will discard. She will be in a good position to make a good move using this- whether to improve her hand, impede her opponents, help someone else or block someone from winning. So in this Toki wins hands down.

Toki' stamina< Kasumi's stamina
On the stamina thing, it was more or less situational. I was just pointing out that Toki is disadvantaged in playing in the individual tournament where there are non-stop games. Even when she was playing just 2 hanchans, Toki looks like she was going to collapse at the end of it even without using her double accel or triple accel. Just look at her first match with Kuro, she was visibly flagging at the end. Since the individual tournament is about 10 hanchans in succession or more - this would be very limiting for Toki.

But, yes I do agree that on the team tournament setting, Toki's stamina is not much of a disadvantage.





Conclusion and Parallelism:
( maybe some foreshadowing for our dream match)

If you look at Kasumi and Toki they have their areas of specialty where they are stronger than the other. If we look closely there are also certain parallelism to whom and how they lost.

The reason that Kasumi might beat Toki is because of her ridiculous fast hands. One of the reasons, Toki was curbstomped is due to Teru's ridiculous fast hands.

On the other hand, the reason Toki might beat Kasumi is because of her table control. Saki, the person who ran circles around Kasumi's ability, managed to surpass Kasumi by godlike table manipulation/control.

See the pattern here?
Anyway, back to the subject.

On the other hand, Kasumi is not truly Teru. If Toki changed the drawing order when Kasumi is about to win I doubt that she'll still get her winning tile or another winning wait. Kasumi will be hindered then for that turn. That and Kasumi won't have a magic mirror that will know all of Toki's powers at one glance.

At the same time, Toki is also not Saki. Toki has awesome table manipulation/control but she can't exactly hit Kasumi's weak point like the dead wall. She also can't get extra draws by chaining kans successively. She also won't have improbable starting hands and ridiculous draws.

So yeah, for the moment , let's just agree that Kasumi=Toki. Yes?
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