AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-11-24, 12:12   Link #61
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Conflicts in history never have been a B&W issue (are you saying the conflict with Native American were a B&W issue? surely not). Conflict by (personal) definition means both sides always share the fault.

Israel and Palestine is just history repeating itself. It's happened many times before everywhere else, and will keep happening in the future. Such is human nature.
The difference is colonists came and took Native American land who were always there. Perhaps how the conflict was handled was not B&W, but I think whose land it was at the time was much more clear cut.

The issue with Israel is it was not always just Palestinian land. You can even say both Jews and Palestinians have claim to the land. Jews have always been living in that country. They didn't just magically come over and say let's claim this unclaimed land. The whole history of the Jewish people are in that country. And there were talks about what to do about Palestine well before WWII and the Arab and Jewish population there (and the Jewish diaspora).

Now I am not denying that Jewish people took Palestinian homes when they came over and the Palestinians fled in the early days of the conflict but to say the conflict is the exact same issue as Native Americans is taking a very simple look at the conflict and the history of it all. And that is part of the problem with this conflict is people try to simplify it and don't understand how complex it is. And heck while Palestinians fled Israel, many Jews were also forced to flee neighboring Arab countries.

Israel is both the home of Palestinian and Jewish people. To say one group had more claim to the country is wrong. The Palestinians were not there first, just at the time of when Israel became a state the Palestinians had a majority.
__________________

Last edited by Kirarakim; 2012-11-24 at 12:28.
Kirarakim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-24, 12:13   Link #62
Ridwan
Got A Bad Desire
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: قلوب المؤمنين
Jews, yes. Ashkenazim ?
__________________
Ridwan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-24, 12:34   Link #63
erneiz_hyde
Indifferent
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Now I am not denying that Jewish people took Palestinian homes when they came over and the Palestinians fled in the early days of the conflict but to say the conflict is the exact same issue as Native Americans is taking a very simple look at the conflict and the history of it all.
Saying they have nothing in common is not right either though.
__________________
erneiz_hyde is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-24, 12:40   Link #64
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
Jews, yes. Ashkenazim ?
Ashkenazim are Jews.


Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Saying they have nothing in common is not right either though.
The similarities are very superficial. Palestine only became Palestine in the 1920's when the British took control of the territory and from that point on they were trying to figure out what to do with the territory (and even back then there was plans for the area to be shared between the Arab & Jewish population). Before that we had the Ottoman Empire.

edit: I think we can also blame the British for how things went down in the end. They made a lot of conflicting statements and promises to both groups and ultimately messed things up. Things only escalated during and after WWII.
__________________

Last edited by Kirarakim; 2012-11-24 at 12:53.
Kirarakim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-24, 12:42   Link #65
Ridwan
Got A Bad Desire
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: قلوب المؤمنين
You shouldn't generalize Jews.

And Palestine has been Palestine since time immemorial.
__________________
Ridwan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-24, 13:01   Link #66
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
You shouldn't generalize Jews.
How am I generalizing Jews?

Quote:
And Palestine has been Palestine since time immemorial.
I am not going to argue with you about ancient ancient history. I did say both groups have claim to the land. The land changed hands and names so many times, so let's not argue about that.

Muslims, Jews, and Christians have ancient history in that land. It's a rich and amazing country.
__________________
Kirarakim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-24, 13:18   Link #67
Ridwan
Got A Bad Desire
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: قلوب المؤمنين
Zionism was downright European Ashkenazi movement. Ideally, Israel is meant to be for all Jews from around the globe, and indeed it has been receiving Jewish immigrants from everywhere, but it has been always primarily de-facto Ashkenazim state.

Native Palestinians, including the minority Palestinian Jews, certainly have bajillion times better claim over the land then any foreign Jewish immigrants who had been living in their respective origins since millenia. It's not that hard to understand. An argument saying it's your land just because a holy book says your ancestors lived there until 2000 years ago simply can't beat the precedents provided by centuries of actually living there continouosly through generations. But just in every other similar cases of fragile claims over legitimacy, that's where material power comes in to back it.
__________________
Ridwan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-24, 13:48   Link #68
thevil1
Adventure ∀logger
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Looking for Reason to hear it's voice
Age: 4
Send a message via AIM to thevil1
I know I got to this discussion late, so I'm just skimming the pages. Oh, and sorry for the double quote and if I'm just saying things that other's have said before me. In addition, I apologize in advance for the super long run-on sentence

Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
We can answer that by asking the opposite question, what Middle East is not heading toward?

A strong united Islamic block with greater influences toward the rest of the world
  • As unless Israel start to bend down, Israel will surely face the Islam wrath for what they are doing right now by that time (sorry Israel, but you have a really bad record so far in this 20th century with the Muslims). So Western nations won't allow that to happen; and any power the Middle East Islam possess, will have to be containable by a superior Israel or US forces.
So to sum up, they will always be mostly Muslims, there will always be conflicts (military or not) between each countries but no major scaled war. And oil nations will always be filthy rich
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem
I wouldn't really call the coverage "extensive." It seems to me that the only time reports on the area are made is when Israel takes military action. As far as I've seen, our (American) news hasn't reported on the random missile launchings that were occurring throughout the year before this latest two-sided conflict broke out. This isn't a good thing for foreign perception of Israel, as it makes people think that one side just randomly starts killing the other and then a fight breaks out. Or, since it's always Israel's military action that makes the headlines, it makes people think that Israel is the aggressor. I'd imagine that if people realized that Israel was enduring regular attacks against their citizens and infrastructure, there would be much more public support for Israel.
As such, the idea that Jews are somehow manipulating the media in Israel's favor seems a bit off to me.
While US media is markedly more pro-Israel than counterparts in Europe and elsewhere, I do agree that jumping from that to The Jewish Media is kind of a big, and vaguely discomforting, jump.
To put it simply
Israel doesn't hate Muslims, (forgive me for generalizing) but Muslims (and their respective countries and lands) hate Israel. You don't have Israel swearing to wipe out Gaza, but you have Hamas (as one example (in Gaza)) swearing to wipe out Israel, no matter what the cost, and them (Hamas) being both strategically and militarily out numbered; besides for daily missile attacks which have become the norm for southern Israeli communities and thus aren't reported on by foreign media, the only other way to attack Israel is by getting media to view their cause, how do they do that? By making sure as many of their own die when Israel decides to say "enough is enough".

That in and of itself is sickening.
It's been publicized that Islamic extremist leaders have said "We (Muslims) value death as much as they (Jews) value life."

I'm not trying to sound racist about any of this , but having been targeted and almost in the area of an attack, I feel strongly about this.



In Egypt, I fear there might be a need for another Arab Spring, I haven't yet read up on the full details on this, but from what I hear, Morsi is going power crazy.
__________________
A hero is an ordinary individual who finds the strength to persevere and endure in spite of overwhelming obstacles - Christopher Reeve
thevil1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-24, 13:50   Link #69
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
Zionism was downright European Ashkenazi movement. Ideally, Israel is meant to be for all Jews from around the globe, and indeed it has been receiving Jewish immigrants from everywhere, but it has been always primarily de-facto Ashkenazim state.
Jews immigrate from everywhere not just Europe. Most Jews probably live in the US, Israel, and France now. It's not a primary Ashkenazim state at all.

Quote:
Native Palestinians, including the minority Palestinian Jews, certainly have bajillion times better claim over the land then any foreign Jewish immigrants who had been living in their respective origins since millenia. It's not that hard to understand. An argument saying it's your land just because a holy book says your ancestors lived there until 2000 years ago simply can't beat the precedents provided by centuries of actually living there continouosly through generations. But just in every other similar cases of fragile claims over legitimacy, that's where material power comes in to back it.
So as long as Jews are only a minority in Palestine/Israel it's okay?

Jews were immigrating to the area well before Israel became a state, for many reasons more didn't come right away (there was an immigration cap as I mentioned earlier.)

I didn't just say Jews have claim to the land because of historical reasons (notice I never said biblical reasons), I said all 3 groups do. The fact that Jews, Christians, and Muslims have history in Israel is an irrefutable fact. This has nothing to do with the Bible or Koran. The architecture/historical land marks still stand. And yeah historically Jews were kicked out of that land, so this is why they were not there for centuries and centuries (although no one is around who is to blame for this)

Palestinians were living in that land, but it was not an official Palestinian country at this time. There were always talks to establish both a Palestinian and Jewish country in that area. And really why not it was the perfect place to establish two new countries. The problem is it was handled very poorly, no one should have been displaced or kicked out of their homes. There could have been a peaceful way to establish a country for both sides.

See I am not claiming that Palestinians don't have a right to Israel, but you are claiming Jews don't (except a small minority). And sorry I don't agree with this. If you want to argue history doesn't matter then we have Jews living there for over 50 years now. Should they all just be kicked out? I believe there is a peaceful solution that is at least as fair as can be to both sides (and both sides will have to give things up) but until people on both sides who want peace win out over the crazies we will continue to have this conflict.
__________________
Kirarakim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-24, 14:07   Link #70
Ithekro
Warning
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 36
I know a few Jews that were born there when it was still the British Mandate of Palestine in the 1930s.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai! Signature by ganbaru
Rena's Saimoe Take Home List 2014: Dairenji Suzuka.Misawa Maho.
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-24, 14:08   Link #71
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
A brief history of the region from the Ottoman Empire

http://www.guardian.co.uk/flash/0,,720353,00.html

I try to find an unbiased history as possible (almost impossible to find unbiased stuff about this conflict).
__________________
Kirarakim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-24, 17:20   Link #72
thevil1
Adventure ∀logger
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Looking for Reason to hear it's voice
Age: 4
Send a message via AIM to thevil1
That bit is a nice brief summery, not as biased as I would have expected. It does however leave out 1948, the Israeli War of Independence which caused Israel to take control of a larger portion, in that case, Israel wasn't the aggressors either.
__________________
A hero is an ordinary individual who finds the strength to persevere and endure in spite of overwhelming obstacles - Christopher Reeve
thevil1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-24, 18:11   Link #73
NightbatŪ
Deadpan Snarker
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Neverlands
Age: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Muslims, Jews, and Christians have ancient history in that land. It's a rich and amazing country.
But it also makes it a powderkeg
History of Israel, Palestina, Middeleast be damned
If there's one thing historically certain, it's that religion does not get along with other religions

Quote:
Originally Posted by thevil1 View Post
In Egypt, I fear there might be a need for another Arab Spring, I haven't yet read up on the full details on this, but from what I hear, Morsi is going power crazy.
Why am I not surprised
Most revolutions only become a 'change of the guard' where one powermonger gets deposed by another
The average Joe that got suckered in with promises usually ends up none the wiser
__________________
NightbatŪ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-24, 18:50   Link #74
Arabesque
Licensed Hunter-a-holic
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 25
I tend to try and not talk about the Middle East much, here or in real life, outside of historical events, figures or other interesting and sometimes awesome things the area had brought out to the world. That is in part due to how politically charged such discussions tend to end up being and how often they shift into the situation over in the Holy Land (which I think is inevitable, considering how central that conflict is when viewing the middle east from not only an outsiders, but even form a personal perspective).

Before I get more into the Israeli-Palestinian situation, I want to touch on where do I think (and in some areas, hope) the Middle East is heading to.

I am in line with what James said in the first page about how I hope that the region will experience a period of Enlightenment where the focus shifts away from the extremist and fanatical views and back into more educated and reasoned thinking, and where there is more openness to the possibility of peace. I'm not sure how that will happen (if it happens) but I want to think that with the rise in the ease and speed of communication and the spread of great knowledge would be a strong incentive to start this period.

I do think that there will be a stronger desire for a more democratic style governments, but all that would mean is that some of the more ugly truths will be masked under a prettier veil and be hidden from the world to judge under a different pretense.

I don't think that the fanatical views will ever truly go away. I wish they would, but if the events of 1979 had shown anything (or really, any organized group with a will for harming others), it is that it sadly there to stay. I hope it will at least be marginalized so it is no longer a major threat, but even then that might be too much to hope.

I think that Turkey will join the EU. I think that it is something that is somewhat obvious that it will happen in the future, though the question is for how long will it be delayed for.

I don't think there will ever be peace between the Palestinians and the Israelis. Maybe many centuries down the line, the general attitude might shift from hate/hostilities to unfriendly, provided there is a war to completely change the face of the region, but as far as I can see, these are people who live in the center of numerous vicious cycles of revenge and grievances that go back for untold years and they still feed into each others hate to this day.

I don't think that the two state solution will work out in favor of the Palestinians. Even if they were to get the land they want, they had shot themselves in the foot by engaging in constant hostilities with Israel (and making it the central focus of their plans) and by encouraging a lot of their population to martyr themselves. No matter how I see it, there isn't going to be a happy ending for them down that line.

At the end, I think that peace will still elude the Middle East, technology will give rise for more people to become more educated, and for the same conflicts to still be going on uninterrupted (barring a major war).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Israel is both the home of Palestinian and Jewish people. To say one group had more claim to the country is wrong. The Palestinians were not there first, just at the time of when Israel became a state the Palestinians had a majority.
Indeed. I think that Amon Oz had summed it up to how truly sad this fact is

Quote:
... in this respect, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been a tragedy, a clash between one very powerful, very convincing, very painful claim over this land and another no less powerful, no less convincing claim.
Which is the main reason why I shy away from participating in any sort of discussion about this particular conflict. I find myself agreeing with a lot of point that both sides have, disagreeing with the methods they chose, understanding why favor they must use them (in Israeli's case, realizing it is necessary), and be at loss at all the tragic deaths and destruction that occurs on regular bases.

It's really hard to condemn anyone group here. The Israelis are fighting to defend their country, where they and their loved ones live, from what they see as a direct attack against their very existence. It is unacceptable to have a country be under attack for months on end and for it to not take action to defend itself and its citizens. I don't believe that every Israelis is happy about how they go about it, but this is a Damned if you Do, Damned if you Don't situation.

On the flip side, I can understand and sympathize with the Palestinians and how bitter they are about how things ended up turning out for them. There is no doubt that they received the raw end of the deal, and it is not really that surprising to see them have feeling of not only resentment, but also of being cheated out of what they felt was theirs. They were living there for a long time, had made the land theirs and lived and died on it's soil, and then suddenly it was taken away and given to someone else. I think that anyone in their shoes would feel similar feelings of unfairness and injustice.

That of course doesn't justify targeting civilian areas for rocket attacks (or any area of that country for that matter), for the reason that the average citizen really doesn't have much say in how the policy of the country might be taken. And more importantly it doesn't help the Palestinians in the long run either, since it practically does nothing and just builds up more reason for Israel to strike back and the general populace to be more in favor of such methods. The only benefit they reap out of it is that they appear like the victims, but how good is that if you can't even stand on your two feet at the end of the day?

Now about the ''who was there first is the rightful owner'' line of thinking, I usually just try and tone out whenever that pops up since it always struck me as being one of the few silly things about this tragic conflict. It might be one of the more popular reasons for certain groups to try and claim superiority over other groups, but it is ultimately futile, since as Kim had pointed out, a case can be made for either the Palestinians or the Jews (or any of the powers that had control over the land since it's long history) and even if there was some way of settling the matter, it is not like it is going to change (or end) the conflict in anyway. The Israelis are not going to simply pack up and leave if an archaeologist finds a rock that says the Jews weren't there first but someone else, and vice versa for the Palestinians. There had been far too much blood and pain on both sides that I doubt that the question of who came first comes up in the minds of people that often nowadays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I think we can also blame the British for how things went down in the end. They made a lot of conflicting statements and promises to both groups and ultimately messed things up. Things only escalated during and after WWII.
Bloody Brits, why did they always ruin everything?

In a way, the backpedaling might have been for the best for Israel (... and maybe for the land? Depends on how much you think the Palestinians (or who ever was going to get the land) was going to do with it and make it turn out). Had the British tried and negotiated with the Arabs to have a Jewish state there, the Arabs might have stalled things out forever, or at least try to come close.

In a way, it ended up being something of a calculated risk. The British would only make the Arabs angry for the short term at them for breaking their promises, but in the long term they knew that they wouldn't have cut all their ties with them (as it would be bad for business) and that things could be patched up togther ... sort of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thevil1 View Post
To put it simply
Israel doesn't hate Muslims, (forgive me for generalizing) but Muslims (and their respective countries and lands) hate Israel.
It's not all Muslims, though everything is so intertwined it might seem like it most of the time (and sadly,a lot of the time it probably is). Though there are Muslims who are not anti-Israel, the main issue here is a combination of old history between the different cultures, lots of bloodshed and a ton of well aimed and long lasting propaganda that leads to that sort of mentality of countries neighboring Israel. Its hard to not get a negative picture of Israel when every media in those countries for the past 6 decades say nothing but ''The Jews did it!'' or ''Israel is Evil!'' about the country and its people. Nor do I find it surprising when some Jews don't feel like being courteous or respectful to Muslims or Arabs.

Again, that's not always the case, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thevil1 View Post
You don't have Israel swearing to wipe out Gaza, but you have Hamas (as one example (in Gaza)) swearing to wipe out Israel, no matter what the cost, and them (Hamas) being both strategically and militarily out numbered; besides for daily missile attacks which have become the norm for southern Israeli communities and thus aren't reported on by foreign media, the only other way to attack Israel is by getting media to view their cause, how do they do that? By making sure as many of their own die when Israel decides to say "enough is enough".

I'm not trying to sound racist about any of this , but having been targeted and almost in the area of an attack, I feel strongly about this.
For what's its worth, I don't think that sounds racist, and I do think what you are saying is understandable and that anyone living in similar conditions would say the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thevil1 View Post
In Egypt, I fear there might be a need for another Arab Spring, I haven't yet read up on the full details on this, but from what I hear, Morsi is going power crazy.
Yikes. I think we should just let things play out peacefully and only get another revolution when the time needs be, and hopefully one that is less violent and more constructive.

At the moment, I think that what President Morsi is trying to do is that he is measuring just how much power does he truly have, and where exactly is Egypt now on the playing field. I doubt he is going to go full on megalomaniac at the moment and decided to burn all the opposition.
__________________
Arabesque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-24, 18:57   Link #75
mangamuscle
formerly ogon bat
 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Mexico
Age: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightbatŪ View Post
But it also makes it a powderkeg
History of Israel, Palestina, Middeleast be damned
If there's one thing historically certain, it's that religion does not get along with other religions
I do not truly believe that. If magically everybody in the middle east forgot their religion the fighting would continue as usual. Truth is religion makes it easier to kill your fellow man, but once the blood has started to flow, there is no end to it until everybody agrees that enough is enough.
mangamuscle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-24, 19:10   Link #76
NoemiChan
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Philippines
Age: 26
Send a message via Yahoo to NoemiChan Send a message via Skype™ to NoemiChan
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
I do not truly believe that. If magically everybody in the middle east forgot their religion the fighting would continue as usual. Truth is religion makes it easier to kill your fellow man, but once the blood has started to flow, there is no end to it until everybody agrees that enough is enough.
Ironic, religion should guide people to be good with your neighbors. But radicals/extremist twisted it through clever use of statements and false claims to justify killings.

Glad that I'm a person with a religion but not religious enough to be sooner be called as a hypocrite because of my conflicting ideas.
NoemiChan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-24, 19:12   Link #77
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
The current conflict is also not a religious conflict, it is just fought between people of two different religions or you can even say different cultural backgrounds. No one is arguing over what God to believe in.

The sad thing is for many years Jews and Muslims actually did get along. In fact I would say as long as the Middle East conflict has gone on, I think a peaceful coexistence between Muslims and Jews were around even longer historically.

That is what makes this current conflict so sad, there were years or peace but in our lifetimes we have only seen the negative side that is happening now.
__________________
Kirarakim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-24, 19:15   Link #78
NoemiChan
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Philippines
Age: 26
Send a message via Yahoo to NoemiChan Send a message via Skype™ to NoemiChan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
The current conflict is also not a religious conflict, it is just fought between people of two different religions.
True. But like I said, it's just the radicals that makes negotiations impossible.
NoemiChan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-24, 19:32   Link #79
mangamuscle
formerly ogon bat
 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Mexico
Age: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
No one is arguing over what God to believe in.
Because that is an inane argument since both of them are Abrahamic religions, calling God Yahveh or Allah makes no real difference.
mangamuscle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-24, 19:40   Link #80
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
Because that is an inane argument since both of them are Abrahamic religions, calling God Yahveh or Allah makes no real difference.
Not saying it isn't an inane argument that didn't stop religious wars from breaking out. Just saying this particular conflict is not about religion.
__________________
Kirarakim is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
middle east

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 22:33.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.