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Old 2012-11-24, 22:06   Link #21
OceanBlue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But before that, I think you should understand the difference between ideals promoted in media and the actual thoughts of the people. I don't really remember that many movies, comics or cartoon in the west that outright promote individuality as the best ideal one should strive for. In your typical hollywood movie, whenever they want to show you a positive value, it's usually Love or Family.
When you look for how individuality is looked at in movies, you look for things like how the choice of the individual conflicts with the choices of the group and how those conflicts are resolved. For example, in a lot of American family movies, it's the parent's duty to understand that their children are growing up and to start giving them distance. For a lot of Japanese anime (which is the only experience I have with Japanese media to be honest ), it's the duty of the child to get the permission of the parents.

I'd say that a lot of Japanese anime promote individuality as well, but it's generally within a Japanese context and it's more limited than in American movies.
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Old 2012-11-24, 22:18   Link #22
judasmartel
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No wonder jaded viewers are now looking for anime with Lone Wolf MC's.

As pretty much every single evil villain ever say, "Stupid things like friendship are only for the weak."

Because really, it's so prevalent that it's hard to determine which character did something within his own power without being inspired by his friends.
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Old 2012-11-24, 22:18   Link #23
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Cowboy Bebop focused on friendship? Well... I don't really think so.
The way I see it the main characters aren't really that much tied to each other. It's more like a mutual-help group of guys who have lost everything that was important to them. They stay together because they need to to live on somehow, and they do the only thing that they can do to get food on their plates.
There is some sort of camaraderie between them, of course, but it's more on the level of work partnership than friendship.

In the end what's more important for Spike and Jet is the woman they loved, for Faye it's her past, her memories and her past self, for Eddie it's her father. And they have lost them all without a chance to recover them. Completely lost them. So Love and Family are the real important values in Cowboy Bebop. It's just that rather than showing how good it is to have them, it shows you how bad it is to not have them.


Cowboy Bebop isn't telling you that Friendship can replace that, or that it can solve any problem, like in your usual action shonen. If you have watched Cowboy Bebop you know how it ends.
How Cowboy Bebop ends does not negate the fact that there are themes of friendship/companionship in the story. I never said it was only the aspect of the series it is there.

I also didn't say it was about the "power of friendship" but it is about how these 4 characters came to relate to one another & why
Spoiler:
is powerful on the viewer.

Friendship does not end as you age. Stories about friendship are not immature. Again one of the most popular series of last year Tiger & Bunny was about male bonding & friendship.

Heck lets get out of anime & talk about Sherlock & Watson one of the most enduring pairs in fiction.
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Old 2012-11-24, 22:25   Link #24
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Once you get into shows focused on older adult characters, friendships tends to become a less prevalent theme. It tends to shift more to pure romance, or "one dude against the world".
Which is a more realistic (certainly more grown up) scenario
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Old 2012-11-24, 22:26   Link #25
judasmartel
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Well, what do you think of this line:

"Stupid things like friendship are only for the weak! The only thing that matters is absolute force!"

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Which is a more realistic (certainly more grown up) scenario
So that's why people think shows about friendship are immature, huh?
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Old 2012-11-24, 22:29   Link #26
Vexx
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Friendship Is Magic (tm).

Seriously, this is a theme in all of literature, all time, all space.

And I dispute this sweeping generalization: friendship and family is a lot more valued in the East than in the West.

The collectivist tendencies of Asian culture do mean that someone may be more likely to "take one for the team" but its a tendency, not a given.

I'm also unclear on how friendship is "immature" or "unrealistic" in adult settings. It can be more complicated but in no way is it either of those adjectives.
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Old 2012-11-24, 22:31   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightbat« View Post
Which is a more realistic (certainly more grown up) scenario
Well, everyone falls inlove and some succeeded to have a good romantic life.

Anyway...

Who in the world would stand up against the world in real life alone?
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Old 2012-11-24, 22:33   Link #28
judasmartel
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Hmm... So it really comes to the setting, huh?

Friendship and family is a lot more valued in the East than in the West.

But the above statement is true, but there are always exceptions.

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Who in the world would stand up against the world in real life alone?
No sane person would ever do that in real life. It generally ends with failure.
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Old 2012-11-24, 22:39   Link #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
No sane person would ever do that in real life. It generally ends with failure.
Exactly. Every find him a lunatic or a sociopath..

It terms or realism, I'll go for "pure romance" than the "against the world thing".
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Old 2012-11-24, 22:41   Link #30
judasmartel
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But you know, that's exactly why people find "the one dude against the world" cool. He's the rebel who does whatever he wants without caring what the world thinks of him. Pretty badass, don't you think?

Because sometimes, you do need to go against the norms just do something you strongly believe in. But that doesn't mean you're going against the whole world, either.
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Old 2012-11-24, 22:48   Link #31
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
But you know, that's exactly why people find "the one dude against the world" cool. He's the rebel who does whatever he wants without caring what the world thinks of him. Pretty badass, don't you think?
NO. If I hear one says that in the public plaza, "It's either I think of him as a lunatic or ignore him coz he's a lunatic...."

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Because sometimes, you do need to go against the norms just do something you strongly believe in. But that doesn't mean you're going against the whole world, either.
He is a lunatic..
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Old 2012-11-24, 23:56   Link #32
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Probably has a lot to do with Japanese societies ideal that the group is stronger and more important than the individual and an attempt to reinforce that ideal. That through hard work and perseverance together one strengthens the self in body mind and spirit. It's something that seems ingrained in the Japanese consciousness for much of it's history, but especially since post World War II.
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Old 2012-11-25, 00:01   Link #33
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I think what is seen mostly in shounen anime isn't only a portrayal of the value of friendship, but an overemphasis on how "The Power of Friendship" makes everything you want possible. Those two are pretty different.

For example, Cowboy Bebop was brought up, and while there is a relevant factor of camaraderie/friendship, it's pretty toned down and mixed with all the other narrative concerns of the work. Compare with things such as Yu Gi Oh! where if the MC draws the card he needed, it is because he has friends and the antagonist doesn't.

I don't think that's bad per-se, it's just an overused approach in (mostly) battle shounen series.
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Old 2012-11-25, 00:07   Link #34
Dr. Casey
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I'm also unclear on how friendship is "immature" or "unrealistic" in adult settings. It can be more complicated but in no way is it either of those adjectives.
Indeed. It's actually a bit annoying to me the cynical lens through which anime views adulthood sometimes. Adults are often portrayed as washed up and beaten down, cogs in the machine of society without any passion or idealism or individuality. Teenagers are the free thinkers that get things done, unlike all those boorish, incompetent adults. Whatever.
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Old 2012-11-25, 00:18   Link #35
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Just to be clear, when I'm talking about "one man against the world", I'm not talking about one man literally trying to conquer the world, or anything like that. I'm talking about the lone individual, the lone man (or woman) trying to carve out his niche in the world. And, in some circumstances, that may throw him (or her) into a lot of conflict. I was thinking of the anime Monster when I wrote that, by the way.

Friendship generally plays a role in shows focused on adult characters, but it's reduced a bit, and I think that's reflective of real life.

I personally think that friendship is important, all throughout life, but it's degree of importance is at its height for kids, adolescents, and maybe post-secondary students. This is due to the way modern society is structured.

Educational institutions, by their very nature, greatly encourage the people in them to make friends. Kids also tend to have more free time than adults, making the benefit of active friendship a bit more clear for kids.

I personally find that the adult workplace doesn't afford the same opportunities for making/growing friendships that educational institutions do, but I'll admit that this probably can vary wildly from one workplace to another.

Long story short, friendship isn't just important for a kid growing up, it's pretty much necessary. As an adult, friendship is still nice to have, but it's not always necessary. A lot depends on the specific individual, his/her place in life, and what s/he's aiming for in life.
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Old 2012-11-25, 00:26   Link #36
creb
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I think there's a difference between explaining why friendship is a good thing, and explaining how friendship is so over-the-top in anime.

I'm sure tvtropes has a trope for it, but anyone who's watched anime for more than a few minutes must have their eyes on auto-roll every time the good guys fight the bad guys, with the good guys yelling out the bad guys' names as they magically become best buds once the fight is over.

While it's obviously an exaggeration, it's also probably due to Japanese society, where burning one's bridges-no matter how horrible a person may be-is done far less frequently than in places that don't have the population/space/economy issues Japan has.

Last edited by creb; 2012-11-25 at 00:42.
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Old 2012-11-25, 04:05   Link #37
Blaat
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
No wonder jaded viewers are now looking for anime with Lone Wolf MC's.
Jaded fans avoids harems and moe girls doing cute things.
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Old 2012-11-25, 08:44   Link #38
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Because friendship-themed stories have the ability to bring us what we seek in our own lives, especially relationships. Love, action, comedy, na´vety, and idiocy are all part of friendship. The The theme of “friendship” is basically the love between friends, an eternal bond that, at its best, not even time or trials or an untimely heroic death can shake or sunder. And these are the things that make friendship-themed stories very adorable and heartwarming.
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Old 2012-11-25, 09:02   Link #39
Sheba
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Adults may not need to talk about friendship but seeks friends even MORE since workplaces are full of backstabbing opportunists. Not every adults are world-weary jaded cynics.
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Old 2012-11-25, 09:15   Link #40
judasmartel
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Originally Posted by Kat- View Post
Japanese society is childish in nature. Grow adult need not talk about friendships and protecting so-so. To me this shows signs that Japan in mentally stunted because of a strict controlling flawed up bringing.
So what SHOULD adults talk about then? Responsibility, sure, that's a given.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba
Adults may not need to talk about friendship but seeks friends even MORE since workplaces are full of backstabbing opportunists. Not every adults are world-weary jaded cynics.
Agreed. Just because you're a grown adult doesn't mean you don't need friends anymore. And you don't need to talk about it all day, either.
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