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Old 2012-11-25, 10:56   Link #41
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
My problem with protagonists that start strong is that they tend to be assholes or have ridiculously sob backstories. That gives me the wrong notion that you can't be badass if you're genuinely kind-hearted and that in order to become badass you need to give up your morals.
I strongly recommend Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha and Rinne no Lagrange to you.

Don't let Nanoha's aesthetics fool you - The girl is one tough cookie!
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Old 2012-11-25, 11:00   Link #42
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post

That's why my ideal hero is the White Knight archetype. He starts off at the exact middle of the power tiers, not weak but not overpowered. He's genuinely kind-hearted and only fights to protect the weak and the innocent.
Just start watching JoJo then. Jonathan Joestar, the protagonist of Phantom Blood, the first arc, IS a gentleman. It's a quality and a tragic flaw of his.
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Old 2012-11-25, 11:00   Link #43
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
In other words, the main character really is a bit "wussy" starting out (although not necessarily much worse than your average person would be), and then the character gradually gets stronger and more "badass" over time. The problem with this approach is that first impressions die hard, and once a character is viewed as a wuss it can be very hard for him or her to ever overcome that (I think of some of the criticisms that Guilty Crown's Shu and PMMM's Madoka have faced).
I agree Shu is an awful character. But then I think Kirito is as well, who I guess people might describe as badass (although I am not sure about that as I stay away from most SAO threads).

Madoka is a bit different though. She is very far from my favorite character but as a device in the story she is interesting. The story centers around her and she doesn't do very much to the end except observe. I think it is an interesting way to present the "main character".

But the best character shouldn't be defined in one way is what I am getting at. A well written character should be neither a wuss or a bad ass. In fact at moments in the story they can be both. You want to see a character have flaws and growth.

I do think some fans come down on weaker characters too hard. Those type of characters tend to have the most potential for growth. It is not always done well, but when it is it can be a rewarding character arc.
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Old 2012-11-25, 11:07   Link #44
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Funny that it reminds me of the TVTropes term "Magikarp Power". Basically, protagonists that start off weak have this power. They start off useless, but with enough time, training, and the power of friendship, they turn into GAR characters.

Really, I find wussy protagonists realistic, because their story symbolises a person's growth of character and skill. Demanding for strong badass protagonists strike me as Wish Fulfillment, unless most Western viewers are actually badass in real life to begin with.
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Old 2012-11-25, 11:07   Link #45
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Didn't you know? Ten years ago the only Animes ever made were Cowboy bebop, Ghost in the Shell, EVA, Hellsing, Kenshin and Dragon Ball...


...According to the western fans that is.
Heh. And those didn't have any kid/teenage characters in them?
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Old 2012-11-25, 11:09   Link #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I agree Shu is an awful character. But then I think Kirito is as well, who I guess people might describe as badass (although I am not sure about that as I stay away from most SAO threads).

Madoka is a bit different though. She is very far from my favorite character but as a device in the story she is interesting. The story centers around her and she doesn't do very much to the end except observe. I think it is an interesting way to present the "main character".
I'm not saying that I consider Shu and Madoka to be awful characters. In fact, Madoka is one of my favorite anime characters of all-time. That doesn't mean I'm not familiar with a lot of the criticisms she's received though.

Basically, I think that the Zero-to-Hero approach is risky, and how Shu and/or Madoka are viewed by many are examples of that. If the character takes too long transitioning to "Hero", then the "Zero" characterization sticks with them regardless.


The flawed badass at least gives the viewer something to cheer for right from the start.

Psycho-Pass and Shin Sekai Yori have given me a deeper appreciation for this. I'd argue that Akane and Saki are two of the stronger female leads I've seen in anime over the past few years, and they've both been very well-received. "Bad Ass" probably puts this too strongly for them (especially in Akane's case), but both are far, far from being wilting violets. And they start out pretty strong and decisive.

Basically, I think that the Akane/Saki route represents a good change-up. And it's one I'd like to see for more male anime leads as well.


All of the above being said, I totally get your point on Kirito...
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Old 2012-11-25, 11:14   Link #47
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Regarding my previous point, think of it this way:

Badass protagonists give you THE IDEA of what kind of person you want to be. Wussy protagonists by themselves are, well, useless, but as gradually written by Japanese authors, they give you THE MEANS to become THE person you want to be.
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Old 2012-11-25, 11:14   Link #48
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I do think some fans come down on weaker characters too hard. Those type of characters tend to have the most potential for growth. It is not always done well, but when it is it can be a rewarding character arc.
Yes, those late bloomers. Personally, I happen to be one myself; AND if I were to go back in time to meet my younger self, I'd give myself a punch in the face.

Having said - I don't advocate a template or cookie-cutter for specific characters to stick out. In fact, truly good characters are rather difficult to create. That's why they're so few and far in between. But they're there; and they share many commonalities. One commonality answers the question: "Would I want this person's career?" "The answer is 'yes'."

By the way, going hard on Madoka is somewhat news to me. I suppose: I was too busy paying more attention to Kyouko. Yet, if there's one thing about Madoka -- her indecision resulted in the suffering of the other characters around her, especially that of Homura. But, Madoka made amends to all that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
Regarding my previous point, think of it this way:

Badass protagonists give you THE IDEA of what kind of person you want to be. Wussy protagonists by themselves are, well, useless, but as gradually written by Japanese authors, they give you THE MEANS to become THE person you want to be.
I tend to wonder.

There must be a lot of Japanese men -- who fall under the category of WUSS; and that's why their women are becoming less interested in dating. LOLOL.
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Old 2012-11-25, 11:16   Link #49
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Originally Posted by Goggen View Post
I'm curious to know when anime ever had "adults only".
He is probably talking about grendizer series , space cobra , lupin III ,etc
Another dude wich think that more the guy is old and more it's good.
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Old 2012-11-25, 11:18   Link #50
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Me on the other hand, would be willing to mentor my old self and inform him of my own failures and how to avoid them, even if it creates a time paradox that will make me disappear forever.

Simply put, I would be willing to be the Archer to my Shirou Emiya.
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Old 2012-11-25, 11:18   Link #51
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Basically, I think that the Akane/Saki route represents a good change-up. And it's one I'd like to see for more male anime leads as well.
Akane and Saki are good examples of what I consider neither wuss or badass. No they don't start out as wusses but I think both have shown moments of weaknesses/doubt so far in the story.

So yeah I agree with you I enjoy them as protagonists but I think that is because they are well rounded not because they don't start off as weak. They certainly have room to grow and learn.

As for a male character, well he is more of a shounen lead but I think Alibaba in Magi kind of fits this too.
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Old 2012-11-25, 11:20   Link #52
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In response to the OP's words. You're simply not looking hard, or deep enough for those subtle animes Especially this season's Psycho-Pass. Even Fate/Zero you somehow skipped?

*disappears*
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Old 2012-11-25, 11:24   Link #53
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I would probably recommend Fate/zero to the OP, unless Madoka Magica characters ARE actually over 25.
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Old 2012-11-25, 11:28   Link #54
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My take on this is that its the culture where the person's tastes about entertainment is born is the issue of the OP here. Japan and Asians in general are, I think, more open-minded to even the most ridiculous topics than their western counterparts: The west would never have imagined something so dead can be something so cute(Sankarea, Dusk Amnesia), or that planes and other inane things can be personafied and anthropomorphized(Strike Witches, Upotte).
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Old 2012-11-25, 11:28   Link #55
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Yeah, I removed that suggestion because of that simple thought.
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Old 2012-11-25, 11:29   Link #56
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Ah,.......guys.......don't want to spoil your fun but, don't you think you are going off-topic?

Anyways, since Coldlight mentioned the thread I created as an example of some individual ranting about how anime he/she likes is not made, I thought I would give my thoughts on this.

I was being naive when I created that thread and I wasn't searching enough to find shows like that among the newly released ones. But, by the end of that thread one thing became clear(if it already wasn't) - It's all about "what sells".
So, the answer to the OP's question is simple, It won't happen until there is a large enough customer base that buys those shows.
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Old 2012-11-25, 11:42   Link #57
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Thread closed pending further review.
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Old 2012-11-25, 15:08   Link #58
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Dear Foreign Country,

What's wrong with you? You don't think like I do. You don't act the way I want you to. And any time you do something I can appreciate, you turn around and mess things up by being Wrong. Why are you so screwed up? Don't you understand that I know what's best for you, and that if only you would do what I want you'd be better off? I know all the issues you have, and they're completely dead-simple to fix. The fact that you don't seem to understand this just shows how ignorant and backwards you are.

I come expecting you to entertain me -- I'm sacrificing my precious time here -- and all you give me is stuff you like, and it isn't even Good. You expect that to make me happy? Don't you realize how lazy and stupid that makes you look? From what I can tell, all of your citizens are screwed up too. Can't you do anything right? Clearly you need good role models, and you're not going to find them looking inside your own borders. Hello?! It's like you never studied Objective Truth; good thing for you that you're talking to it now.

I hope for your sake that you change your ways, because that's the only way you're going discover your true calling to serve me. Obviously it's not like you can accomplish anything on your own without me here to give you all this free advice -- it's the only way to overcome your stunted emotional growth and become Normal. If you can't do that, I'm sure your nation isn't long for this world; don't think your centuries of history can shield you from my being Right. When the end comes for you, don't say I didn't warn you.

Sincerely,
"A Truly Mature Mind"


P.S. Suffice it to say, we're not going to re-open this thread, with apologies to those who tried to salvage it. If someone would like to try again and take a different approach, it could work.
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