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Old 2012-11-23, 12:14   Link #2401
Von Himmel
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Remember that even her teammates were surprised when someone actually managed to score when Kasumi went into that mode. I think it implied that normally, people wouldn't even be able to win their hands because of that hax ability. She might be able to hold of by calling tiles but I don't know whether it could last long or not before she eventually tsumo...
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Old 2012-11-23, 13:25   Link #2402
Serperior
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Um, I'll interrupt this Toki vs Kasumi battle but here's the Biyori chapter I was talking about:

Spoiler for Biyori:


Also, here's a great image BD/DVD comparison. Remember at the end of Saki where they changed Saki's opponent to Jindai + 2 random girls to Kasumi + Toyone + Kyouko? Well, in Achiga they changed some minor but great details. I think you guys know the image on how they changed Hatsumi's clothes from modest to almost falling off from TV to BD/DVD and Kasumi's breast size... here,

Spoiler:


The one major question I had is that how are they going to adapt the remaining matches in just 3 episodes? I think the Sergeant Match is at 1.5 eps and most and so is the Lieutenant's match. The Vice-Captain match is 2+ episodes and God knows how long is the Captain's match going to be. I find it pretty impossible for them to adapt it. Unless they rush again. D:

Also, we're nearing the end of December. Achiga ep 13 is in one month's time! Rumours had it that they'll be shown in December 16? I'm not too sure though. Biggest problem is that who's going to sub it. Crunchyroll subbed it when Achiga was airing but is Crunchyroll licensed to sub the remaining episodes? I doubt that other fansub groups have Achiga as a priority....

EDIT: Oh, while I'm here, can I ask on your opinion about these three players: Sumire, Kirame and Mairu. I think asked you guys on your opinion about Mairu being a normal player but if you think about it, Kirame also has an ability but she's considered a normal player. Sumire, I think is also a normal player since her 'Piercing Arrow' style is a play style and not an ability. Sumire purposely adjust her hand by reading her opponent's discard to target the player. Compared to Takami and Seiko, where the tiles would go and be attracted to them. (Takami's is obvious, but Seiko's hand is that if she called thrice, her winning tile will be 'caught' on her hook definitely.) I consider them normal players with gimmick. Like with Nodoka. Nodoka has a Nodocchi mode but that doesn't mean she gains an ability when she becomes Nodocchi.

Last edited by Serperior; 2012-11-23 at 14:07.
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Old 2012-11-23, 15:26   Link #2403
RJ TAYLER
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Wouldn't rule out a 3 x 45min episode for the remainder.
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Old 2012-11-23, 19:07   Link #2404
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I apologize if I seem a bit insistent. As a Saki fan, most of my enjoyment actually comes from these little things in the manga, so I very much enjoy debating on playing styles and the likes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
Toki's Speed < Kasumi's Speed
Kasumi hand formation should be fast. She only has one suit and honors to choose from. Unless Toki actively bends probability toward her like certain monsters, there is absolutely no way that she could be faster than Kasumi. Statistically, Kasumi should form her hand faster than Toki.

I just went and checked the manga again and Kasumi win somewhere around the 7th-8th turn. That is almost like TERU. If you look at the discards, the wins in the quarterfinal captain south round that is shown is really really fast. Most of the wins that thwarted Kasumi, which was shown, happens before the 6th go around.
This is the one that I disagree the most about. I've looked back at Toki's matches in the anime as well (manga does not show discards), and found the following five wins from Toki:
  • 8 turns (ron on Achiga)
  • 7 turns (ron on Achiga)
  • 10 turns (tsumo)
  • 7 turns (tsumo)
  • <= 6 turns (tsumo) (this is likely about 3-4 turns; less than 6 is definite since no there is not a second row of discards).
This is evidence that Toki also completes her hands at lightning speeds in most situations. It's unknown how this will interact with the suit restriction (although since having 2 instead of 3 suits makes reading tiles easier, she should actually be able to at least tenpai faster with her ability).

Kasumi only Tsumos with her ability twice in the manga. The first time, the discards are simply not shown. The second time, she won with a flush on the ninth turn. Since she turtled after that to prevent herself from dealing into a rinshan on an honor tile (this was explicitly stated), her hand pretty much did not progress to winning hands after that; still, given the number of honor tiles she discarded on the second win, I would highly doubt that she has that high of a chance to win on 6 turns or less. 7-8 turns is exactly where Toki is with her ability and luck.

Adding in disruptions and the potential to lock her wins by drawing a honor tile in the middle of a round, and I would say that the two are about equal in pure hand completion speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
Toki's firepower < Kasumi's firepower
I agree with this entirely. Even with limits on Dora, having a 8000+ hand on every win

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
Toki' stamina< Kasumi's stamina
This is completely fair if we're talking about the individuals. However, Toki's health is such that she would likely lose by disqualification (by fainting), which makes discussions about individual tournaments kinda meaningless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
One of the reasons, Toki was curbstomped is due to Teru's ridiculous fast hands.
Actually, if you look back at East Round 3, Toki actually declared riichi (given her future sight ability, it means that she foresaw that the round will pass and that she'll draw the tile she needs - this, by the way, would have been a 6 round tsumo). Teru actually overrode her predictions by calling a tile, which caused the winning tile to end up in Achiga's hands.

Toki's lessons from that round: Teru is hax enough to override future sight.

Given Toki's records, I don't really think the ridiculous fast hands was the reason that she wasn't able to complete a single hand against the champion (remember that Kirame was also skipping a lot of Teru's turns, so that 7-round hand is actually a lot more in Toki's perspective). Rather, the fact that Teru can out-hax future sight and basically give the finger to Toki's power seeing is a more prominent reason than anything else, I would think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serperior View Post
EDIT: Oh, while I'm here, can I ask on your opinion about these three players: Sumire, Kirame and Mairu. I think asked you guys on your opinion about Mairu being a normal player but if you think about it, Kirame also has an ability but she's considered a normal player. Sumire, I think is also a normal player since her 'Piercing Arrow' style is a play style and not an ability.
It's hard to see Sumire's ability as being 'normal'. Basically, for the entirety of the game, Sumire has to be able to predict - almost tile to tile - what the opponent's hand looks like as it progresses and be able to draw the tiles that she needs to exactly match an opponent's discard (and remember, she had to predict the next discard rather than the winning tile, which you can't really reliably do by just reading the discard pool).
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Old 2012-11-24, 01:21   Link #2405
ahelo
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I'm currently watching Akagi and in episode 7, they played up the possibility of a Rinshan Kaihou, more specifically the one with the melded kan and "the one responsible pays". Even there it's specifically said how rare that is and how Akagi had to cheat a lot to get it and it made me realize how much of a hax character Saki is.
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Last edited by ahelo; 2012-11-24 at 01:33.
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Old 2012-11-24, 03:41   Link #2406
fukarming
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serperior View Post
Um, I'll interrupt this Toki vs Kasumi battle but here's the Biyori chapter I was talking about:

Spoiler for Biyori:


Also, here's a great image BD/DVD comparison. Remember at the end of Saki where they changed Saki's opponent to Jindai + 2 random girls to Kasumi + Toyone + Kyouko? Well, in Achiga they changed some minor but great details. I think you guys know the image on how they changed Hatsumi's clothes from modest to almost falling off from TV to BD/DVD and Kasumi's breast size... here,

Spoiler:


The one major question I had is that how are they going to adapt the remaining matches in just 3 episodes? I think the Sergeant Match is at 1.5 eps and most and so is the Lieutenant's match. The Vice-Captain match is 2+ episodes and God knows how long is the Captain's match going to be. I find it pretty impossible for them to adapt it. Unless they rush again. D:

Also, we're nearing the end of December. Achiga ep 13 is in one month's time! Rumours had it that they'll be shown in December 16? I'm not too sure though. Biggest problem is that who's going to sub it. Crunchyroll subbed it when Achiga was airing but is Crunchyroll licensed to sub the remaining episodes? I doubt that other fansub groups have Achiga as a priority....

EDIT: Oh, while I'm here, can I ask on your opinion about these three players: Sumire, Kirame and Mairu. I think asked you guys on your opinion about Mairu being a normal player but if you think about it, Kirame also has an ability but she's considered a normal player. Sumire, I think is also a normal player since her 'Piercing Arrow' style is a play style and not an ability. Sumire purposely adjust her hand by reading her opponent's discard to target the player. Compared to Takami and Seiko, where the tiles would go and be attracted to them. (Takami's is obvious, but Seiko's hand is that if she called thrice, her winning tile will be 'caught' on her hook definitely.) I consider them normal players with gimmick. Like with Nodoka. Nodoka has a Nodocchi mode but that doesn't mean she gains an ability when she becomes Nodocchi.
Kirame had been shown that she is the weakest player out of shindouji. so she is definitely the weakest. Mairu is the ace of Shindouji but it has been stated that she cannot compete with other school's ace. it will be interesting to see Sumire going against Mairu but I think Mairu will win, but not by alot.
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Old 2012-11-24, 10:07   Link #2407
krko
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Kasumi also speeds up her opponent's hands by restricting them to two suits.
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Old 2012-11-24, 10:24   Link #2408
arsonal
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Achiga-hen episode 13 airs December 24 at 23:30 on AT-X.
Blu-ray volume 7 will be released on March February 20, 2013, at the same price as previous volumes, so it should contain two episodes.

Last edited by arsonal; 2012-11-24 at 14:31.
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Old 2012-11-24, 11:41   Link #2409
teja208
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Just want to add a bit on Kasumi vs. Toki, isn't Kasumi also has a limited stamina? She needs purification ritual after using her power for a certain amount of time right? With consecutive individual tournament matches, she may not be able to use her powers every match.

So new episode on the Eves huh?
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Old 2012-11-24, 12:01   Link #2410
Requiem-x
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arsonal View Post
Achiga-hen episode 13 airs December 24 at 23:30 on AT-X.
Blu-ray volume 7 will be released on March 20, 2013, at the same price as previous volumes, so it should contain two episodes.
Yuu being awesome, what a great christmas present.

By the way, on manga related news

Spoiler for Spoiler:
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Old 2012-11-24, 13:08   Link #2411
Proto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teja208 View Post
Just want to add a bit on Kasumi vs. Toki, isn't Kasumi also has a limited stamina? She needs purification ritual after using her power for a certain amount of time right? With consecutive individual tournament matches, she may not be able to use her powers every match.

So new episode on the Eves huh?
She needs a purification ritual in order to get out of her spirit mode. Drawing a single suit all the time can end up backfiring on you
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Old 2012-11-24, 13:40   Link #2412
Serperior
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arsonal View Post
Achiga-hen episode 13 airs December 24 at 23:30 on AT-X.
Blu-ray volume 7 will be released on March 20, 2013, at the same price as previous volumes, so it should contain two episodes.
Nope~su. The extra episodes will be released at 30 minutes each since the episode is going to be shown in AT-X first (They have a TV slot).

They will released the Blu-ray/DVD at one episode each. At the same price and with no extra items whatsoever (as of yet).

So it's practically daylight robbery on what Studio GOKUMI is doing. Blu-ray costs a fortune and only 1 episode at that? :/

Aside from the pacing issue, money issue will be a problem now. I love Saki but I would never buy it as it costs $80+ only for one episode.

@fukarming: I'm not talking about who would win in a fight~su.

EDIT: Omake

Spoiler for I almost put omake~su:
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Old 2012-11-24, 14:40   Link #2413
Requiem-x
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While Sumire is gone...

Spoiler for Spoiler:
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Old 2012-11-24, 16:14   Link #2414
King-Slayer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serperior View Post

EDIT: Omake

Spoiler for I almost put omake~su:
So you like the crazy scientist type
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Old 2012-11-25, 00:28   Link #2415
teja208
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Originally Posted by King-Slayer View Post
So you like the crazy scientist type
Serperior would like to have FunaQ sample his delicious data.
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Old 2012-11-25, 05:31   Link #2416
Felyndiira
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teja208 View Post
Serperior would like to have FunaQ sample his delicious data.
FunaQ does not sample delicious data. She goes right to finding the expected value and (standard) deviation.
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Old 2012-11-25, 10:00   Link #2417
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Old 2012-11-25, 11:56   Link #2418
night_sentinel
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^
^
^
That is certainly unexpected... I still prefer other characters for Saki though. And I'm currently shipping ShizuxAko so yeah...


@ Felyndiira
I would also like to apologise for taking a bit long to reply, I had to finish a project that was due tomorrow.

Anyway back to our discussion, it seems that our only remaining point of contention is the speed wherein Kasumi and Toki reach their wins.

The reason why I felt that Toki has normal draws was because she wasn't able to stop Teru who was able to win in about 6-7 turns on average. Kirame's constant calling only hinders Teru and is actually beneficial to Toki at times. And during this match up, there are many times that Toki's hand wasn't even in tenpai when Teru pulls her winning hand.

But, then again looking at the data you have presented, perhaps I was a bit too harsh on Toki. After all, Toki's last match may not be the best indicator of her hand completion rate due to the simple fact that she was facing TERU. It is entirely possible that Toki has a better hand completion speed than was shown in the match

If Toki has a 7-9 turn hand completion rate in average, then I do agree that Toki's hand completion rate = Kasumi's hand completion rate

Regarding Kasumi's purification, I don't think it is a stamina thing. As Proto said it was more of a flexibility thing - Kasumi is stuck on that mode until she does a purification ritual. In this Toki I suppose exceed Kasumi so Toki flexibility > Kasumi's flexibility

So in conclusion what we have right now for Toki vs. Kasumi is this:

Toki's defence >= Kasumi's defence
Toki's speed = Kasumi's speed
Toki's firepower < Kasumi's firepower
Toki's flexibility > Kasumi's flexibility
Toki's stamina <= Kasumi's stamina (team)
Toki's stamina < Kasumi's stamina (individual)


Looks like Toki and Kasumi ended up about even.

Anyway continuing on our line of discussion, a friend of mine asked me about this situation. If Toki calls a tile when Kasumi was about to win will it disrupt her?

On the surface it would appear the answer would be an obvious yes. But, Kasumi has a magnet type ability like Kuro and it seems that no amount of change in the drawing order stops the desired tiles from coming toward their hand. From what I read on the manga, calling hasn't seem to have broken Kasumi's one suit. If you think about it, any call should have shifted the drawing order so that at least one of Kasumi's opponent would get the restricted suit. But looking at the discards yields a different story - Kasumi's one suit ability remained absolute.

Now, for the purpose of this example let's say Kasumi's one suit for this turn is the bamboo. Toki saw Kasumi winning with the nine bamboo next turn. She then calls to shift the drawing order. Kasumi ended up missing her turn.

But, then what happens to the nine of bamboo that Kasumi was suppose to win with? it can't go to the other player due to Kasumi's ability. So where is it?
Will it merely be pushed back allowing Kasumi to still draw it in her next turn and thus win?
Or will Kasumi get a different tile and thus the disruption be successful?
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Old 2012-11-25, 14:55   Link #2419
Felyndiira
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Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
Regarding Kasumi's purification, I don't think it is a stamina thing. As Proto said it was more of a flexibility thing - Kasumi is stuck on that mode until she does a purification ritual. In this Toki I suppose exceed Kasumi so Toki flexibility > Kasumi's flexibility

So in conclusion what we have right now for Toki vs. Kasumi is this:

Toki's defence >= Kasumi's defence
Toki's speed = Kasumi's speed
Toki's firepower < Kasumi's firepower
Toki's flexibility > Kasumi's flexibility
Toki's stamina <= Kasumi's stamina (team)
Toki's stamina < Kasumi's stamina (individual)


Looks like Toki and Kasumi ended up about even.
I'd consider the individuals separately. It's easy to acknowledge that anyone that doesn't get disqualified will > Toki on a standard individuals tournament, so the only meaningful comparison between the two is during the team competition. We can both acknowledge that Kasumi >>>>>>> Toki on the individuals since Toki would not even last 3 matches.

With that considered, for the team tournaments:

Toki's defence >= Kasumi's defence
Toki's stamina <= Kasumi's stamina (team)

Toki's speed = Kasumi's speed

Toki's firepower < Kasumi's firepower
Toki's flexibility > Kasumi's flexibility
Toki's table control > Kasumi's table control


Table control is different from flexibility; flexibility is the ability to use one's abilities to apply to multiple different situations (and the ability to adapt), while table control is blatantly controlling the entire table to fit your needs.

Overall, I think the main thing that restricts Kasumi is her lack of control over her power. If she could turn her suit magnet on and off whenever she needs to, Kasumi's ability would be amazing (especially in tandem with her way above average skill in mahjong/defensive play). However, the lack of flexibility in her powers really hampers her play and opens her up to either getting countered or sealed.

It's kinda like the situation with Kana vs. Koromo/Saki. Kana has the luck and ability to form huge hands very quickly (I think she counted at least two yakumans in the match against Koromo), but she was shut down by Koromo and Saki's manipulation of the table even when she regained control of her hands. As great as Kasumi's firepower is, I'm not certain how many hands she'll actually be able to complete if she actually is playing at the same table as someone with any form of table control - e.g. Toki.

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
Anyway continuing on our line of discussion, a friend of mine asked me about this situation. If Toki calls a tile when Kasumi was about to win will it disrupt her?

On the surface it would appear the answer would be an obvious yes. But, Kasumi has a magnet type ability like Kuro and it seems that no amount of change in the drawing order stops the desired tiles from coming toward their hand. From what I read on the manga, calling hasn't seem to have broken Kasumi's one suit. If you think about it, any call should have shifted the drawing order so that at least one of Kasumi's opponent would get the restricted suit. But looking at the discards yields a different story - Kasumi's one suit ability remained absolute.

Now, for the purpose of this example let's say Kasumi's one suit for this turn is the bamboo. Toki saw Kasumi winning with the nine bamboo next turn. She then calls to shift the drawing order. Kasumi ended up missing her turn.

But, then what happens to the nine of bamboo that Kasumi was suppose to win with? it can't go to the other player due to Kasumi's ability. So where is it?
Will it merely be pushed back allowing Kasumi to still draw it in her next turn and thus win?

Or will Kasumi get a different tile and thus the disruption be successful?
A magic mahjong time paradox . Regardless of what happens, I think one of the two will end up trumping the other person's ability in some way (since Toki saw the future, she technically also saw one of the future tiles on the wall. In order for Kasumi's ability to manifest, it would technically override the vision and 'negate' Toki's ability for that turn in a sense). Thus, I think there are two possibilities:
  • In the case of Toki's future reading trumping Kasumi's suit magnet, the result is apparent - the nine of bamboo will end up in someone else's hand. Then, the round would proceed from there as if Kasumi's ability is in effect.
  • In the case of Kasumi's suit magnet trumping Toki's future, the nine of bamboo would no longer be a correct reading. In essence, Kasumi should have a possibility of ending up with anything on her next draw, and may or may not win. Since she her ability is just "drawing suits" and not "drawing specific suits", once Toki's vision is negated, her draw is randomized again. Or something. I think we need a quantum physics expert to actually answer this.

I think it would end up as "whoever has the 'stronger' ability trumps whoever has the 'weaker'." In short, time paradox, anything can happen; I guess in that context, maybe Toki would be equal to Kasumi since if they ever used their abilities against each other in a match, the universe would just spontaneously end from the time paradox.

For that matter, unless if Teru can negate abilities, someone could actually stop Teru altogether by having an ability that actually helps enemy players (for example, a reverse Kasumi ability where you can designate any player to receive one suit only). If all of Teru's hands automatically began with flushes, it would prevent her from ever getting the <2000 point hand to start her rampage.


__________________________________________________ _________



Also, this might be an old topic, but I just noticed this little detail today after my fifth readthrouth of this chapter. Remember when Saki said she 'had to resort to +/- 0' and was afraid of Kyouko?

Images
Why Saki is afraid of Kyouko, and why Saki resorted to +/- 0 (spoilers from chapter 90)
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Old 2012-11-25, 18:05   Link #2420
Bladezer
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Sorry to interrupt the Kasumi/Toki debate. I just wanted to say, I've been following the thread for a while and I just wanted to post my own theories and debate with everyone.

I noticed something when re-watching/reading Saki,during the Nagno finals, Saki played like Teru with starting with small hands then making progressively bigger ones. I just found it interesting because the series has shown that relatives have similar abilities as shown with Yuu and Kuro's magnet abilities, Koromo and Touka being able to control the flow of the game, and Jindai and Kasumi's goddess possession.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felyndiira View Post
A magic mahjong time paradox . Regardless of what happens, I think one of the two will end up trumping the other person's ability in some way (since Toki saw the future, she technically also saw one of the future tiles on the wall. In order for Kasumi's ability to manifest, it would technically override the vision and 'negate' Toki's ability for that turn in a sense). Thus, I think there are two possibilities:
  • In the case of Toki's future reading trumping Kasumi's suit magnet, the result is apparent - the nine of bamboo will end up in someone else's hand. Then, the round would proceed from there as if Kasumi's ability is in effect.
  • In the case of Kasumi's suit magnet trumping Toki's future, the nine of bamboo would no longer be a correct reading. In essence, Kasumi should have a possibility of ending up with anything on her next draw, and may or may not win. Since she her ability is just "drawing suits" and not "drawing specific suits", once Toki's vision is negated, her draw is randomized again. Or something. I think we need a quantum physics expert to actually answer this.

I think it would end up as "whoever has the 'stronger' ability trumps whoever has the 'weaker'." In short, time paradox, anything can happen; I guess in that context, maybe Toki would be equal to Kasumi since if they ever used their abilities against each other in a match, the universe would just spontaneously end from the time paradox.
Actually by using Side A semi-finals and Kuro's ability, I think I can come up with a answer. In that match up Teru, Kirame and Toki made calls at different points, yet Kuro still got all of her dora, so I'm guessing that Toki would be unable to stop Kasumi's win, because it seems that the tiles would've determined that Toki would do that and go still go to Kasumi after Toki called to stop her winning.

On a different note I was wondering if anyone can come up with away for Kuro to improve her ability. I did think that if the aka dora were removed this would allow for Kuro to call Kans with the for dora she's gathered and would allow her to aim for Four Kans, just an ideas. Plus I just wanted to know if your only allowed to have a certain number of dora in your hand, of course I only want to know this because of would I just said about Kuro and her ability.
This has also brought to believe that in the finals Kuro may pull of a Four Kan yakuman tsumo, filled with dora in the finals making the scores become less ridicules were its Shiriatodai dominating.

P.S Its nice to be at forum where there isn't constant pointless whining about Achiga, especially someone who likes them.

Last edited by Bladezer; 2012-11-25 at 19:11.
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