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Old 2012-11-25, 09:18   Link #41
Lenneth4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Cowboy Bebop focused on friendship? Well... I don't really think so.
The way I see it the main characters aren't really that much tied to each other. It's more like a mutual-help group of guys who have lost everything that was important to them. They stay together because they need to to live on somehow, and they do the only thing that they can do to get food on their plates.
There is some sort of camaraderie between them, of course, but it's more on the level of work partnership than friendship.

In the end what's more important for Spike and Jet is the woman they loved, for Faye it's her past, her memories and her past self, for Eddie it's her father. And they have lost them all without a chance to recover them. Completely lost them. So Love and Family are the real important values in Cowboy Bebop. It's just that rather than showing how good it is to have them, it shows you how bad it is to not have them.


Cowboy Bebop isn't telling you that Friendship can replace that, or that it can solve any problem, like in your usual action shonen. If you have watched Cowboy Bebop you know how it ends.
You cried at the cow boy bebop's end
Admit it

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-11-25 at 16:16. Reason: clean-up
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Old 2012-11-25, 10:11   Link #42
Kirarakim
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And it just hit me the friendship between Kenji and Mutta in Uchuu Kyoudai is another main focus on that story about adults (of course that one also deals with brothers, family, and romantic love as well).
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Old 2012-11-25, 11:03   Link #43
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I'm also unclear on how friendship is "immature" or "unrealistic" in adult settings. It can be more complicated but in no way is it either of those adjectives.
The difference is that for young teenagers friendship is the most important value. But when you find Love and when you make a family, while friendship remains an important value it comes to a second or third place.

The result is that while you might find positive portrayals of friendship in adult oriented media, it rarely is the main focus.
And on this note

Quote:
How Cowboy Bebop ends does not negate the fact that there are themes of friendship/companionship in the story. I never said it was only the aspect of the series it is there.

I also didn't say it was about the "power of friendship" but it is about how these 4 characters came to relate to one another & why
I guess we interpret "focused on" in a different way, because to me "focused on" means that the whole story revolves around that as its main theme.


About the notion of east = collectivist, west = individualist.
I think it should be noted that west only became individualist in recent years. Europe has always been pretty much collectivist especially in medieval times. In fact the word "individual" had originally a negative connotation.

Also did you know that the word of greek origin "idiot" originally referred to people who think about themselves rather than the good of the whole community? It was the worst offense back then.


Individualism isn't really a value that should be associated with the western culture, but with secularism. Asian countries simply were affected later by it, but they are slowly moving there.


Quote:
You cried at the cow boy bebop's end
Admit it
Of course I did, But that doesn't tell much... I can't even count the anime that made me cry.
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Old 2012-11-25, 11:24   Link #44
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The difference is that for young teenagers friendship is the most important value. But when you find Love and when you make a family, while friendship remains an important value it comes to a second or third place.
Really my value as an adult is money money money (j/k)

The thing is I guess I don't entirely agree with this because as an adult I have friends that are as close as family to me (maybe even closer than my real family) so stories about friendship still ring true to me as an adult. Children might be more important but lover, nah.

I am not going to argue that values change as you get older but I don't think friendship itself is an immature theme.

I also am not really sure if it is just kids watching these stories of youth. I kind of get the notion that there is a sense of nostalgia for youth in many anime series, hence why we have so many younger characters.
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Old 2012-11-25, 11:26   Link #45
judasmartel
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Okay, so why would the OP think themes like friendship are immature?
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Old 2012-11-25, 11:47   Link #46
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Friendship is not immature, it’s part of human nature. Perhaps that’s why the viewers enjoy seeing their dreams realized through fictional characters in the form of anime
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Old 2012-11-25, 13:02   Link #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I also am not really sure if it is just kids watching these stories of youth. I kind of get the notion that there is a sense of nostalgia for youth in many anime series, hence why we have so many younger characters.
I have seen it argued that there is a great deal of nostalgia for high school among Japanese adults. They idealize that time as the last period of freedom before the demands of the Japanese workplace radically restrict their lives. I have no personal experience to know how true this is, but I have seen it mentioned more than once when it comes to anime.

Nevertheless it is pretty clear to me that the emphasis on stories about adolescents and young adults is largely market-driven. While Japanese adults continue to read manga, they generally stop watching anime if they ever did. That makes anime adaptations a useful marketing tool for manga aimed at young people, but much less effective in reaching their parents.

Nostalgia seems to be a strong component of adult Japanese culture. Bartender is filled to the brim with nostalgia, but you can also feel a nostalgic sensibility in other adult works like Saraiya Goy-ou and Hyouge Mono. I suspect this emphasis on nostalgia derives from what I detect as a stronger historical sensibility among the Japanese as befits a culture that spans many centuries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
Okay, so why would the OP think themes like friendship are immature?
You would have to ask him, but I think he is either not watching the right shows or concentrating his attention elsewhere. There are plenty of shows which depict mature adult friendships. Along with Bartender and Saraiya Goy-ou, I would add Monster, Mouryou no Hako, Oh! Edo Rocket, Saiunkoku Monogatari, Seirei no Moribito, and Usagi Drop, just as a start.
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Old 2012-11-25, 13:13   Link #48
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
I have seen it argued that there is a great deal of nostalgia for high school among Japanese adults. They idealize that time in their lives as the last period of freedom before the demands of the Japanese workplace radically restrict their lives. I have no personal experience to know how true this is, but I have seen it mentioned more than once when it comes to anime.

Nevertheless it is pretty clear to me that the emphasis on stories about adolescents and young adults is largely market-driven. While Japanese adults continue to read manga, they generally stop watching anime if they ever did. That makes anime adaptations a useful marketing tool for manga aimed at young people, but much less effective in reaching their parents.

Nostalgia seems to be a strong component of adult Japanese culture. Bartender is filled to the brim with nostalgia, but you can also feel a nostalgic sensibility in other adult works like Saraiya Goy-ou and Hyouge Mono. I suspect this emphasis on nostalgia derives from what I detect as a stronger historical sensibility among the Japanese as befits a culture that spans many centuries.

It's true manga seems to have more varied plot lines, but I think this is because you don't need as big of a budget for manga as you do for anime. And yes I don't disagree manga has a much broader readership then anime.

However if you look at what we watch why do we assume it mostly for kids. I know your shounen and most day time shows are, but from what I've seen most anime whether it has younger characters or not is late night Otaku anime. I am not really sure what age group is watching this anime. Maybe not adults with a lot of responsibility but it has got to be people with some income. I know teenagers have some disposable income but I know I couldn't afford to support the industry as a teenager so hence I don't see it as "kids" watching these series who necessarily identify with the characters.

Even take something like Chihayafuru: it's a Josei set in high school. The manga-ka herself said that she was in a Karuta club and it reminded her of a time when you can be completely focused on one thing like Karuta and didn't have to worry about other responsibilities...that's definitely nostalgia talking I think.
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Old 2012-11-25, 13:27   Link #49
NightbatŪ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The difference is that for young teenagers friendship is the most important value. But when you find Love and when you make a family, while friendship remains an important value it comes to a second or third place.

The result is that while you might find positive portrayals of friendship in adult oriented media, it rarely is the main focus.
Bingo!

I dread to think that in this day and age, the priorities are almost like this

1: Work
2: Close loved ones (Wife/Husband, Children, perhaps add mother/father)
3: Colleagues/Friends
4: Rest of the family

Now, I have friends that go back almost 30 years that are still as much friends now as then
(so not the class of '89 or facebook type of friends)
but as time went by, even we found ourselves in a world where friendship gets the least devoted time

"We" aren't roaming the streets anymore,
"I" have got work to do "He" has a new baby coming, "He" is busy balancing his selfemployment with the time spent with his wife, "I" have to get my act together

The group mentality has been replaced by individual goals/activities



But as for the "one man against the world" in shows targetted for an older audience isn't that strange either
About the time after we've become adolescents, we're faced with making stands more serious than not sharing your candy with your sister, or not letting your friend ride your new bike
Decisions that have more impact than deciding which GI-Joe figure you want to play with most
The things you didn't agree upon at puberty have become trivial, and situations in the "grown up world" may affect (your) lives for longer than a season or schoolyear
Most of us may have been in a "me against the world" situation
Animes orientated towards this premise are there to give us the feeling (fantasy) that sometimes it's worth and possible to go against all odds

When you're younger, it's you and your friends fighting the world, when you're older you'll often find yourself outnumbered, without backup
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Old 2012-11-25, 13:38   Link #50
Kirarakim
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I think people misunderstand though, just because you aren't with your friends all the time and you have other responsibilities and things to think about doesn't mean they are less important to you.

Yes I have way less time to be with friends but because of that the time I do spend with them I value even more then I do in the past.
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Old 2012-11-25, 17:22   Link #51
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I think people misunderstand though, just because you aren't with your friends all the time and you have other responsibilities and things to think about doesn't mean they are less important to you.
Well, there's a simple test

Choose: your wife(GF?) or your friends
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Old 2012-11-25, 17:24   Link #52
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Its called "balance", it isn't a black and white choice. If it is, something is out of whack.
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Old 2012-11-25, 17:34   Link #53
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I think people misunderstand though, just because you aren't with your friends all the time and you have other responsibilities and things to think about doesn't mean they are less important to you.

Yes I have way less time to be with friends but because of that the time I do spend with them I value even more then I do in the past.
You mean "less important" as "less important than before" or "less important than my family and my loved one"?

In the first case, well yeah I can believe that, though I also think that for a lot of people if not the majority they do care less about friends.

In the second case, I don't think it's possible that you'd never have to choose between them. I don't mean something drastic like breaking up with either, but things like when your friends ask you to hang out, but your significant other has other plans, or your kid wants you to bring him somewhere that weekend.
Most people would most likely choose the latters.

Then again... it should be also factored that your friends are a lot less likely to make you "pay" for choosing the others... Which means it might be more a choice dictated by self-preservation than by actual preferences...
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Old 2012-11-25, 18:08   Link #54
NightbatŪ
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Its called "balance", it isn't a black and white choice. If it is, something is out of whack.
Consider me a movie bad guy,... iow: I'll shoot them both if you don't choose


Love replaces friendship, if not, something is out of whack
You don't miss a friend on the emotional level as you would your loved one
Love has the same investment of experiences as friendship, but adds intimacy

Sorry, I'm a firm believer that the value of love rates higher and that friendship is glorified too much (but not considered worthless)
This is from personal experience and from years of observing it everywhere
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Old 2012-11-25, 18:12   Link #55
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Well then, the solution is simple, no?

Love thy friends!
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Old 2012-11-25, 18:13   Link #56
Kirarakim
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I don't think anyone should measure up friendship to family (that's really strange and silly).

My friends are like family to me and when it is important they are there for me and I am there for them.

Little things like I can't hang out because I have to take my kids to the soccer game or go with my husband to his business dinner well I don't think I measure relationships like that.

Everyone has things they have to do. Real friendship is not measured on how much time you spend with each other. You might not see them for weeks even months, but you know when the time comes they are there to support you, that is what real friendship is and yes even as an adult when you have families and other responsibilities you can have real lasting friendships like that. It is not about putting more value over the other.

And yes I do love my friends.
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Old 2012-11-25, 19:00   Link #57
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I wonder if the objections to the apparent prevalence of "friendship" in anime stem from its perceived cheesiness? I say this because I've observed how certain themes work in anime but flop in live action. I'm reminded, in particular, of Nodame Cantible and Moyashimon, both of which had J-drama adaptations that I simply couldn't stand. The humour was more or less the same, but the amount of over-acting in the drama productions greatly detracted from my enjoyment. It almost seemed as though the actors forgot how to act, and compensated with exaggeration that's more suited to animation.

(It's sometimes puzzling to me how voice actors can appear to be technically better actors than live actors. The subtleties that seiyuu can deliver through voice alone is something I don't often see from J-drama actors.)

By extension, if I were to imagine a number of anime series as live-action drama, I get the feeling I would be similarly turned off by the apparently cheesy emphasis on the "power of love and friendship" that will overcome all obstacles.

If it doesn't work for live-action drama (for me at least), why does it for anime?
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Old 2012-11-25, 19:14   Link #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightbatŪ View Post
Consider me a movie bad guy,... iow: I'll shoot them both if you don't choose


Love replaces friendship, if not, something is out of whack
You don't miss a friend on the emotional level as you would your loved one
Love has the same investment of experiences as friendship, but adds intimacy

Sorry, I'm a firm believer that the value of love rates higher and that friendship is glorified too much (but not considered worthless)
This is from personal experience and from years of observing it everywhere
Well, when I say balance, I mean things like you negotiate with your significant other in balancing time. My wife has hobbies I don't and vice versa - she has friends I don't and vice versa. We manage our time so no one feels neglected. We have hobbies, activities and friends that we share as a couple.

The same sort of maps apply to our two sons and us.

I think its crap when a lover insists one drops one's friends or hobbies - that's possession, not love. In a Venn diagram, my sphere overlaps hers but it isn't a 1:1 set. Frankly, we'd probably kill each other with that kind of convergence
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Old 2012-11-25, 19:38   Link #59
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@Kirakim and Vexx

I don't quite understand anymore what we are discussing about. What you think, what people think or what you think people should think?

For the topic's sake what really matters is only what people think though.
It's nice to see that you refuse to decide which is more important between friends, family and your significant other, but are you saying that just to tell what you think or are you saying that because you believe that's what most people think?

By the way I don't quite agree with you. I think it's only normal that my friends would prioritize their significant others or their kids. If my best friend didn't know who to save in a situation where he could only save one among me and his wife, or even worse his son, I'd think his priorities are messed up.
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Old 2012-11-25, 20:44   Link #60
NightbatŪ
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I think its crap when a lover insists one drops one's friends or hobbies - that's possession, not love
But that's not the question
This is not "Sophie's Choice"
What I am asking is to dig deep down and admit who you'd rather spend the most time with
That it isn't practically or emotionally possible to be stuck with someone 100% of the time is a given

And I have a hard time believing that people kid themselves their 'quality time' with their friends did not drop sharply the moment they became intimate with someone

Perhaps I'm in a different world, but the first thing I see neglected when people can get their itch scratced is friendship, which improves only somewhat after the initial romantic satisfaction has been filled
while before you spend 100% of your leasuretime with your 3 friends
once involved in a relationship, you are not gonna balance it in such a way that you spend 25% of that time on your partner and 75% on your 3 buddies
not even 50/50, more like 70%-80% on your partner, what's left on your friends

I am well aware that this "neglect" is a natural thing and isn't actually meant to devalue friendship by its definition
but it is by definitition not on the same level as love, yet people still cling to that 'golden' idea of loyalty/comraderie while not realising how easy they actually let it rust
It doesn't even involve the same level of guilt when neglecting friendship in comparison to love and is taken much more for granted
"Friendship is forever, they'll always be there when you need them"
Yup, just like a dog, and it's practical for them to be there if you need them, but I'd like to know is,
how people percieve friendship then when they DON'T need it?

As far as I can see, friendship is most valued when it has not been replaced yet by romance
Something also evident in how the animes for different agegroups are presented
they are not creating a certain setting out of thin air, but showing something already present that naturally progresses with age
In a war/combat anime (realistic setting) I have no doubt there would be much emphasis on the comraderie/brothers in arms-feeling
created under fire amongst death and suffering
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