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Old 2012-11-25, 22:01   Link #2421
tarajis
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Location: Within the choice of Steins Gate...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladezer View Post
Actually by using Side A semi-finals and Kuro's ability, I think I can come up with a answer. In that match up Teru, Kirame and Toki made calls at different points, yet Kuro still got all of her dora, so I'm guessing that Toki would be unable to stop Kasumi's win, because it seems that the tiles would've determined that Toki would do that and go still go to Kasumi after Toki called to stop her winning.

I was thinking the same thing about this... the Side A semi-final vanguard battle and the Side B quarter-final captain battle may prove this... even if Toki uses her ability and sees that Kuro will get a dora, she will be in a position where she can't do anything to disrupt that flow of events... Saki seems to not been able to disrupt Kasumi either but rather used this to her advantage...

Does this means that Kuro's dora magnet and Kasumi's one suit magnet are absolute abilities? So even if Toki uses triple then she will be unable to stop those two from getting their designated tiles so she just have to do something else to win...

I was wondering if ever Saki and Kuro play each other... Kuro being the Dragon Lord and Saki being called the one loved by the tiles hence the tile Lord of the Tiles... will Saki be able to get a dora from the dead wall (aka Saki's personal stash of tiles)? but I think that Fujita Pro also used the term The One Loved by the Tiles to Teru, Jindai and Koromo...
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Old 2012-11-25, 22:37   Link #2422
Felyndiira
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladezer View Post
Actually by using Side A semi-finals and Kuro's ability, I think I can come up with a answer. In that match up Teru, Kirame and Toki made calls at different points, yet Kuro still got all of her dora, so I'm guessing that Toki would be unable to stop Kasumi's win, because it seems that the tiles would've determined that Toki would do that and go still go to Kasumi after Toki called to stop her winning.
Kasumi's ability isn't to draw the exact tile she needs, though - it's simply to draw 'tiles of one suit and honors'. This is also a bit of a strange case, since Toki's foresight in Kuro's case never really extended to her draws, but only to her discards (she was only really able to complete a hand once in the two times she faced , and that time Toki never tried to change the flow at all). As a result, the draws are still Schrodinger's tiles at this point so it still does not invalidate Toki's ability, whereas a specific Tsumo call would make the tile obvious and would make the two abilities clash directly.

Even if Kasumi's ability was able to overcome Toki's, though, there is nothing in her ability writeup that says she will draw a winning tile (merely that she'll draw tiles of a certain suit+honors). As a result, there should be no reason why the nine of bamboo gets specifically 'pushed back' as opposed to the next draw that Kasumi gets getting randomized again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladezer View Post
On a different note I was wondering if anyone can come up with away for Kuro to improve her ability. I did think that if the aka dora were removed this would allow for Kuro to call Kans with the for dora she's gathered and would allow her to aim for Four Kans, just an ideas. Plus I just wanted to know if your only allowed to have a certain number of dora in your hand, of course I only want to know this because of would I just said about Kuro and her ability.
This has also brought to believe that in the finals Kuro may pull of a Four Kan yakuman tsumo, filled with dora in the finals making the scores become less ridicules were its Shiriatodai dominating.
There is an entire article out there analyzing Kuro's ability and how it can be used if, say, we kept the ability constant but switched Kuro with a better player like Hisa or Hiroe:

http://www.fnsna.net/side/?p=1238

Of course, the problem is still Teru's Ea, which we've already noted to have way too much dominance of the board.

As for the four kans, it's actually notable that Kuro does not always draw dora (she does, however, shut anyone else from drawing it). She's also never shown to draw more than three of any one dora tile in any of her plays that I remember, so that might be implicitly a limitation to her ability. Also, the red-5 doras that she also tends to draw basically nulls that possibility, and is possibly the reason why she never calls kans (since it could very easily lock her into having 14 doras and being forced to discard one).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladezer View Post
P.S Its nice to be at forum where there isn't constant pointless whining about Achiga, especially someone who likes them.
Just randomly throwing it out there, but the 'Achiga's Captain is a monkey' joke still cracks me up whenever I see it.
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Old 2012-11-26, 00:06   Link #2423
Marina2
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Say, if Kuro and Kazumi are on the same table and 1-pin (Just for example) is...

1. The dora tile for Kuro and..
2. Kazumi is collecting all pin

Who will 1-pin go to?
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Old 2012-11-26, 00:12   Link #2424
The Green One
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There have been some interesting debates lately. So in the interest of killing some time while we wait for the next chapters....

A question for you all. The ultimate Side A vs Side B setup.

In this scenario is a single game, vanguard, sergeant, lieutenant, vice captain, and captain battle. Each round has two Side A players and two Side B players. You can mix and match players from any team, they just have the be from the side in question and play the position in question. Example would be two Side A vanguards and two Side B vanguards.

What would be the ultimate match up you'd like to see? It's okay to include players from the defeated teams from the prefecture preliminaries.
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Old 2012-11-26, 01:05   Link #2425
night_sentinel
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Forgot to add table control to the list of our concluded points. I do agree with what you've said Table control does not equal flexibility. Though, if you have good table control there is a very good chance you have good flexibility.

Just to reiterate our agreed points are:

Toki's defense >= Kasumi's defense
Toki's stamina <= Kasumi's stamina (team)
Toki's speed = Kasumi's speed
Toki's firepower < Kasumi's firepower
Toki's flexibility > Kasumi's flexibility
Toki's table control > Kasumi's table control


Beside this, your post reminded me that we have not yet tackled technical skill which I will define as the player's skill without their power in the equation. Toki has a low technical skill. Before Toki's power manifested, Toki was a third string player at Senriyama.

Kasumi, on the other hand, even without taking her power into account was a great defensive player. Eisui's tactics as said by the manga was for Jindai and Hatsumi to get points and for Kasumi to focus on shutting players up in the captain match.
Thus: Toki's technical skill < Kasumi's technical skill


And at the risk of extending our debate again I would like to say sorry in advance, but I'll have to quibble with you on the overall result of Toki vs. Kasumi.

I do agree that there is an uncertainty of how many hands that Kasumi will be able to pull. But, given that Kasumi and Toki will have the same hand formation speed, then by nature of Kasumi's greater firepower she will be getting more points than Toki in 1:1 exchange. Beside that, since we assume that Toki will be calling a lot, her hand will have a lowered point value. Thus, to be able to even with Kasumi, Toki would need to win more perhaps a 2:1 or even a 3:1 ratio.

Then, we have to take account of the paradox. How exactly would it resolve will affect the Kasumi vs. Toki match-up. If we go with the first scenario, that the winning tile would just be pushed back and Kasumi will win next turn. If this is how the paradox resolves, Kasumi would sooner or later win against Toki.

But, if we go with the second scenario, that the winning tile would be shuffled in a quantum state of uncertainty and Kasumi will randomly draw another tile that is in line with her ability ( a restricted suit + honor tiles). Then, this match-up will became more even.

P.S. I was rewatching the Toki's battles again in Achiga-hen and I would like to ask if you think that Toki's one turn precognition ability is always active or she has to consciously activate it. For the purpose of this debate, we assumed that it is always active but looking at the matches there is some evidence that it isn't so.

IF we go by the time Toki's eye turn green, then Toki's ability is only active at certain points of the match and not always.

P.P.S.
That is some heroic pictures you made there. I'll post a comment after I finished my work.
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Old 2012-11-26, 01:14   Link #2426
Vazrin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Green One View Post
There have been some interesting debates lately. So in the interest of killing some time while we wait for the next chapters....

A question for you all. The ultimate Side A vs Side B setup.

In this scenario is a single game, vanguard, sergeant, lieutenant, vice captain, and captain battle. Each round has two Side A players and two Side B players. You can mix and match players from any team, they just have the be from the side in question and play the position in question. Example would be two Side A vanguards and two Side B vanguards.

What would be the ultimate match up you'd like to see? It's okay to include players from the defeated teams from the prefecture preliminaries.

Captain: Saki - Koromo - Awai - Ryuuka

Vice Cap: Nodoka - Cold Toka - FunaQ - Arata

lieutenant: Hisa - Hiroe Atago - Ako - Takami Shibuya

Sergeant: Mako - Sumire - Yuu - Tomoe Karijuku

Vanguard: Toki - Mihoko - Jindai - Teru

Just tossed together more or less lol, and new to the forums and really like Saki, Achiga not so much but that aside this is a setup id be curious about o.O
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Old 2012-11-26, 02:11   Link #2427
night_sentinel
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There's a couple of interesting questions here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarajis View Post
I was wondering if ever Saki and Kuro play each other... Kuro being the Dragon Lord and Saki being called the one loved by the tiles hence the tile Lord of the Tiles... will Saki be able to get a dora from the dead wall (aka Saki's personal stash of tiles)? but I think that Fujita Pro also used the term The One Loved by the Tiles to Teru, Jindai and Koromo...
Saki vs. Kuro


This fight is a bit lopsided. Saki has a history of trumping powers that are suppose to be absolute, but even if we give Kuro the hypothetical advantage and assume that Saki won't be getting any dora which includes the kan dora. Kuro is a still outmatched.

For one, Kuro won't be getting the benefits of those kan dora since whenever Saki calls a kan, she is almost guaranteed to get a rinshan kaihou. Unless, Saki is planning something else. For reference of what Saki could plan to do just look at Teru's kan in Achiga-hen. Saki can also make Kuro's hand overflow with dora and force Kuro to choose to discarding a dora which will negates her power for the rest of the match or probably play into Saki's hand.

Besides, getting high points is not going to be a problem for Saki. As Kyouko have pointed out last match, Saki does not even bother using kan doras or any doras for that matter to increase her score. She'll be perfectly fine even without doras for her hand ... since that's how she currently rolls even without a special ability to muck things for her. I do wonder if this is another example of Saki unconsciouly holding back ... since assuming one plays +/-zero, one probably does not want any dora since they drastically increase her score.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
Say, if Kuro and Kazumi are on the same table and 1-pin (Just for example) is...

1. The dora tile for Kuro and..
2. Kazumi is collecting all pin

Who will 1-pin go to?
Assuming both abilities are absolute and will not negate each other.
Kasumi and Kuro will not draw the 1 pin.
After all, Kasumi has many pin tiles + honor to draw from. Kuro, on the other hand, would draw other doras and tiles that are not Kasumi's one suit. This way both abilities will stay true without any hassle.

Now, the next question would be?
If no one draws the one-pin? Where will it go?

I believe that due to both abilities, it would then have a drastically lowered chance to draw for all players so it would probably be relegated as the last tile that could be drawn on the live wall. Another possibility is the one pin would be stuck on the dead wall where no one can draws it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Green One View Post
A question for you all. The ultimate Side A vs Side B setup.
What would be the ultimate match up you'd like to see? It's okay to include players from the defeated teams from the prefecture preliminaries.
Side-B would not include Rinkai or Uzusan yet though. But, if we include the prefecture tournament of Nagano as Side-B to make up for it.

An ultimate match up made of 2 people from each side would be this:

Then this is my match up :
Vanguard: Teru, Toki vs Jindai, Mihoko
Sergeant: Sumire, Yuu vs. Mako, Aislinn
Lieutenant: Takami, Sera vs. Hisa, Hiroe
Vice-captain : Marui, Funaq vs. Nodoka, Touka(cold mode) (If Touka isn't in cold mode, I would put Hatsumi or Sae here also as a possibility. Nodoka can also be replaced but it looks like her digital mode is going to work in this ultimate match-up since Marui and Funaq are both non-hax players)
Captain: Awai, Himiko vs. Saki, Koromo (full moon)
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Old 2012-11-26, 03:51   Link #2428
teja208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felyndiira View Post
Just randomly throwing it out there, but the 'Achiga's Captain is a monkey' joke still cracks me up whenever I see it.
Koromo: AFTER PLAYING THEM, I THINK YOU MIGHT HAVE QUITE AN ENEMY, SAKI.
Saki: THAT'S OKEY. I'D BE HAPPY TO PLAY SOMEONE STRONG.
Koromo: NO...
Koromo: ACHIGA'S CAPTAIN...
...
...
...
...IS A MONKEY.

Well, I don't see anything funny about that.
...
...
...
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Old 2012-11-26, 04:14   Link #2429
Felyndiira
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Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
Thus: Toki's technical skill < Kasumi's technical skill
This is entirely true; Toki would not have been included in Senriyama's lineup if it wasn't for her ability. If Kasumi had control over her powers (namely, in the form of being able to turn it on or off at will), her overall skill would be an important consideration.

However, Kasumi's powers are way too limited. Once she uses her suit magnet, she could no longer go back to her normal style of play; considering that suit magnet basically shuts down her interactions with other players altogether, as long as we can concede that Kasumi without her power could not beat Toki with her power (Toki's power has no drawbacks other than stamina, so she's more likely to have it active at all times), it makes technical skill a non-important consideration in a comparison between the two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
And at the risk of extending our debate again I would like to say sorry in advance, but I'll have to quibble with you on the overall result of Toki vs. Kasumi.
Oh, no, not at all. I am enjoying this discussion as well .

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
I do agree that there is an uncertainty of how many hands that Kasumi will be able to pull. But, given that Kasumi and Toki will have the same hand formation speed, then by nature of Kasumi's greater firepower she will be getting more points than Toki in 1:1 exchange. Beside that, since we assume that Toki will be calling a lot, her hand will have a lowered point value. Thus, to be able to even with Kasumi, Toki would need to win more perhaps a 2:1 or even a 3:1 ratio.
I'm still going to use the Kana vs. Koromo/Saki battle as a reference. Kana is somewhat like Kasumi in that she can get huge hands very quickly, but Koromo's and Saki's table control prevented her from winning a single hand that they did not decree that she could win. I'm not saying that Toki is anything close to Koromo level, but unless if we assume the worst interaction in the paradox, Toki should be able to really mitigate Kasumi's win potential, whether by calling on her own or dealing into other players' calls.

And plus, she can still complete her hands when she's not actively stopping Kasumi's tsumo. Kasumi's weakness with honor tiles also factors into account here: if other players (like Toki herself) start going for honor tile pair wins, it will make it difficult for her to discard honors in later discards. Having a single, say, chun in your hand is enough to mess up an otherwise flush draw, while Toki does not have the same weakness with any discard. Saki, for instance, was able to seal Kasumi's hands by making her afraid to deal honors into a potential rinshan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
Then, we have to take account of the paradox.
I don't think we'll ever be able to come to a conclusion on this one. I will agree that if the winning tile gets pushed back instead of reset, then Kasumi would have an advantage. I personally think that it's more plausible that the tile gets re-randomized, but since this is a paradox, nothing short of word of Ritz would be able to give any concrete conclusion to this =p.

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
P.S. I was rewatching the Toki's battles again in Achiga-hen and I would like to ask if you think that Toki's one turn precognition ability is always active or she has to consciously activate it. For the purpose of this debate, we assumed that it is always active but looking at the matches there is some evidence that it isn't so.
She has to consciously activate it. However, she seems to be doing that every turn just given how that match turned out (It would be implausible if she's only using the ability at select times and just happens to hit the riichi turns/important plot-central rounds that give her massive + points every round). We can't be 100% sure due to animation skips though - we're only shown some cases of Toki using her ability, while during all of the other turns we get the standard Ritz skip.

Oh, and I definitely agree. Saki vs. Kuro would result in Kuro getting Tanoshii'd very badly. With the Kasumi vs. Kuro situation, though - it seems to be implied that Kasumi's ability blocks her suit from becoming dora tiles as well, so that case should theoretically not ever happen. The only tiles that will never see play would be the red 5's of the blocked suit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Green One View Post
There have been some interesting debates lately. So in the interest of killing some time while we wait for the next chapters....

A question for you all. The ultimate Side A vs Side B setup.

In this scenario is a single game, vanguard, sergeant, lieutenant, vice captain, and captain battle. Each round has two Side A players and two Side B players. You can mix and match players from any team, they just have the be from the side in question and play the position in question. Example would be two Side A vanguards and two Side B vanguards.

What would be the ultimate match up you'd like to see? It's okay to include players from the defeated teams from the prefecture preliminaries.
For me, it would be this:

Vanguard: Mihoko, Satoha, Toki, ???
(Teru turns any match into a lopsided 1v3 massacre, so I'd rather have the good/ability hax players that can actually have a good game with each other).

Sergeant: Sumire, Yuu, Mako, (Rinkai/Usuzan Player)
(Izumi is not really that skilled; there's no evidence that Aislinn won't continue to just be sealed, as she seems to depend on her ideal table way too much).

Lieutenant: Hisa, Hiroe, Sera, Ako
(Didn't include sheep-san since we never saw much of what she can do. Haru and Kurumi could only mitigate Hisa when they were double-teaming her; didn't include Takami because it's either she doesn't get last dealer and everyone ignores her, or she gets last dealer and everyone gives up dealer turns on purpose - either is not fun to watch. Nagano's teams don't really have strong lieutenants also.)

Vice-Captain: Regular Touka (without Nodoka crush), Nodoka, FunaQ, Mairu
(Battle of the badass normal technical players ).

Captain: Saki, Koromo, Awai, Nel...Himeko
(Battle of the monsters + Himeko. Poor Himeko.)

Last edited by Felyndiira; 2012-11-26 at 19:46.
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Old 2012-11-26, 05:44   Link #2430
night_sentinel
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Originally Posted by Felyndiira View Post
Oh, no, not at all. I am enjoying this discussion as well .
Oh, that's good to know. Just tell me if you're already bored with this line of discussion - we can switch topics anytime. Its a pity, but I think we're already running out of points of contention for Toki vs. Kasumi. In fact, I agree with most of what you've posted. I just can't agree on this one point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felyndiira View Post
And plus, she can still complete her hands when she's not actively stopping Kasumi's tsumo. Kasumi's weakness with honor tiles also factors into account here: if other players (like Toki herself) start going for honor tile pair wins, it will make it difficult for her to discard honors in later discards. Having a single, say, chun in your hand is enough to mess up an otherwise flush draw, while Toki does not have the same weakness with any discard. Saki, for instance, was able to seal Kasumi's hands by making her afraid to deal honors into a potential rinshan.
This is where we disagree mostly. I believe that even if Toki would be able to shut Kasumi most of the time, Kasumi would be able to gain the advantage or even up with Toki due to Kasumi's massive wins. I calculated that Toki would need to win twice or even thrice to offset any wins that Kasumi will get. Unless you're saying that Toki would be able to perfectly shut Kasumi like she did with Kuro. And even with the honor weakness, Kasumi's one suit is still a pretty good defensive ability that I believe that it won't happen.

For Toki to shut Kasumi she needs to have this:
One, Toki needs to have a partner or someone willing to cooperate with her to discard the tile she needs to call and this must be done at the right time or else it was for naught. Toki can't call whenever she wants/needs to after all.
Two, Toki or Kasumi's opponent would need to have at least many pairs of honor tiles in her hand to strike at Kasumi and I don't think Toki has any draw bonus for honor tiles. In fact, the very first thing you discard when you are building your hand is usually honor tiles. If Toki insist on making an honor tile pon, she will be slowing her hand down too.

As you can see with this two points, the whole set-up is highly situational. Thus, I don't think that it is possible for Toki to be able to shut Kasumi down perfectly or even most of the time. Perhaps instead of using the Koromo vs Kana analogy Sera vs Ako would be better (the quarterly match not the semifinal one).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felyndiira View Post
I don't think we'll ever be able to come to a conclusion on this one. I will agree that if the winning tile gets pushed back instead of reset, then Kasumi would have an advantage. I personally think that it's more plausible that the tile gets re-randomized, but since this is a paradox, nothing short of word of Ritz would be able to give any concrete conclusion to this =p.
Yeah, I agree that this is pretty much impossible to resolve which is a pity considering that it would be quite a deciding factor on the Toki vs. Kasumi.

Judging from the direction of the manga, we won't even be getting a word of god on the matter. For the foreseeable future Toki vs. Kasumi won't happen. There is a high chance that Toki won't be in the individual match due to stamina problems. Kasumi is also not participating in the individual match. So yeah.

Anyway since one of our main point is a big blank question mark. And looking at that stats we made, it seems that Kasumi and Toki ended up more or less even. Can we put them in the same power tier and just mark that any battle between the two can go both way depending on the situation?
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Old 2012-11-26, 08:16   Link #2431
Felyndiira
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Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
Anyway since one of our main point is a big blank question mark. And looking at that stats we made, it seems that Kasumi and Toki ended up more or less even. Can we put them in the same power tier and just mark that any battle between the two can go both way depending on the situation?
I can agree with that at this point =).

It does make me wonder, though - can you force Kasumi's hand in such a way that in an exhaustive draw situation, it is no longer even possible for no one else to draw that restricted suit? If that happens, and Kasumi for some reason purposely screws up her hand and never calls Tsumo, what would happen in the later rounds - would someone else end up drawing the suit anyway because it's no longer logically possible for her not to, or would we see weird things happening like five white dragon tiles?
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Old 2012-11-26, 12:54   Link #2432
Serperior
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Uwah, lot's of discussion.

Anyways, get excited for Zenkoku-hen since this is what you guys are expecting!

Spoiler for a bit big but worth it!:
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Old 2012-11-26, 13:26   Link #2433
night_sentinel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felyndiira View Post

It does make me wonder, though - can you force Kasumi's hand in such a way that in an exhaustive draw situation, it is no longer even possible for no one else to draw that restricted suit? If that happens, and Kasumi for some reason purposely screws up her hand and never calls Tsumo, what would happen in the later rounds - would someone else end up drawing the suit anyway because it's no longer logically possible for her not to, or would we see weird things happening like five white dragon tiles?
I also wonder about this situation. If the game goes that far by say Kasumi purposely screwing her hand... then I do believe the other players should be able to draw the restricted suit if it is all that can be possibly drawn. The restricted suit wasn't at the dead wall as evidenced by the match, so that left only the end of live wall for their probable location. I would like to say that seeing five white dragon tiles is going to be quite impossible since most ability bend probabilities and not reality itself. But, there are a mounting body of evidence that some strong abilities do interact reality e.g. Koromo's power causing blackouts, Teru's power seems to be short circuiting the camera and it looks like Saki's power caused the hall to shake and a monocle to break .... so yeah, if Kasumi's ability is really that absolute we are going to be seeing some weird things like five white dragon tiles. Though, personally I prefer the first scenario with Kasumi's power breaking than seeing five white dragon tiles - I have a feeling that will bring a public outcry of cheating even if no one can prove it.
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Originally Posted by Felyndiira View Post

Images
Why Saki is afraid of Kyouko, and why Saki resorted to +/- 0 (spoilers from chapter 90)
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
I would just like to add some things. Beside Kyouko and Kasumi nullifying Saki's kan, I think one of the main reason, Saki said Kyouko was troublesome was because Kyouko technically put Saki's score below zero.

Remember, Saki said that she started the round by using the mental trick that Hisa taught her back in the first chapter. So this would be the beginning score :

Saki : 25,000 - 24,000 = 1000
Kyouko : 25,000 + 8,000 = 33,000
Kasumi :25,000 + 8,000 = 33,0000
Toyone: 25,000 + 8,000 = 33,000

East 1st round

As Felyndiira said, Kyouko "accidentally" stopped Saki's kan. Kyouko called something allowing Kasumi to get the tile Saki needs and since Kasumi is a really good defender she kept it. Anyway the round ends with Kyouko ronning Toyone.

Saki : 1,000
Kyouko : 33,000 + 3,900 = 36,900
Kasumi : 33,000
Toyone: 33,000 - 3,900 = 29,100


East 2nd round

Saki is looking remarkably put out. Anyway, this round ends with Kyouko doing a tsumo. (2,000/1000)

Saki : 1,000 - 1,000 = 0
Kyouko : 36,900 + 4,000 = 40,900
Kasumi : 33,000 - 1,000 = 32,000
Toyone : 29,100 - 2,000 = 27,100

East 3rd round
I think Saki is still a bit shaken in this round. Unfortunately, this is Saki's dealership and she got hit by a ron. Ouch. And consequently if we follow her perspective, she is also below zero. Double ouch. Notably, it was Kyouko who did this by directly hitting Saki.

Saki : 0 - 2,600 = -2,600
Kyouko : 40,900 + 2,600 = 43,500
Kasumi : 32,000
Toyone: 27,100

I hypothesize that this is the time wherein Saki decides to switch out of Hisa's mental trick and go for the easier and more comfortable (for her, anyway) +/-zero route. If you check the manga page, we get Toyone and Kasumi's reaction to this win which is in the variation of easy going comments about how Kyouko seems to be rushing her win. Saki doesn't have any comment and now we know why.

East 4th round (Saki is already in the +/-zero mode)
This is Kyouko's dealership. She is once again rushing to get a quick win. But, the moment she did a riichi, Saki called a kan on Kyouko's discards and won.
Rinshan Kaihou for 8,000 points + 1,000 for the riichi stick. That was some quick revenge.


Additional comments:

I am not surprised that Hisa's mental trick didn't work. There is this tiny problem with tricks - it only works effectively if you didn't know that there is a trick involved. Since, Saki is essentially trying to trick herself, then its effectiveness would probably be reduced. In fact, I would hazard to guess that Saki doing Hisa's mental trick is more of a handicap than anything else in this match. Even when Saki first used it, it was remarked to be quite a feat to achieve. And now, with the "trick" revealed to Saki- most of its effectiveness is probably gone. It probably didn't help Saki's mental state either when it failed; ultimately causing Saki to do +/-zero as a comfort blanket.
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Old 2012-11-26, 15:38   Link #2434
King-Slayer
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Originally Posted by The Green One View Post
There have been some interesting debates lately. So in the interest of killing some time while we wait for the next chapters....

A question for you all. The ultimate Side A vs Side B setup.

In this scenario is a single game, vanguard, sergeant, lieutenant, vice captain, and captain battle. Each round has two Side A players and two Side B players. You can mix and match players from any team, they just have the be from the side in question and play the position in question. Example would be two Side A vanguards and two Side B vanguards.

What would be the ultimate match up you'd like to see? It's okay to include players from the defeated teams from the prefecture preliminaries.
We'd have a better list after the B side semi's but here's what i'd like to see:

Vanguard: Toki, Teru vs Mihoko, Jindai
Sergeant: Yuu, Sumire vs Aislinn, Kaori
Lieutenant: Sera, Takami vs Hisa, Hiroe
Vice Captain: Mairu, Hiroko vs Momo, Sae
Captain: Awai, Shizu vs Koromo, Yumi.

Side B hasn't got a great Sergeant that we've seen so far and we've not seen the captains of Side A. But i think these matches would be interesting.
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Old 2012-11-27, 07:27   Link #2435
Felyndiira
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Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
(Saki hits negative points)
Wow .

I never actually noticed this, and never saw this mentioned on any other forum. That's quite an impressive storytelling on Ritz's part. Thanks .
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Old 2012-11-28, 14:44   Link #2436
Serperior
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O-oh. This thread was teeming with activities until recently with the Kasumi vs Toki discussion and the Why Saki Was Afraid Of Kyouko discussion but it seems to have petered out.

Anyways, I'm curious on which VAs do you think would be perfect to play the Miyamori, Eisui and Himematsu girls.

Here's the list of VAs I'd prefer and bolded are the VAs that I would be disappointed if they aren't casted as the specific characters:

Himematsu
Suzu Ueshige - Chiaki Ohmigawa
Yuuko Mase - Maaya Uchida
Hiroe Atago - Emiri Katou
Kinue Atago - Kanae Itou
Kyouko Suehara - Chiwa Saitou


Miyamori
Shiromi Kosegawa - Aki Toyosaki
Aislinn Wishart - Satomi Satou
Kurumi Kakura - Ayana Taketatsu

Sae Ususawa - Minako Kotobuki
Toyone Anetai - Yoko Hikasa

Rinkai:
Satoha Tsujigaito - Eri Kitamura
Nelly Virzaladze - Ai Kayano
Megan Davin - Miyuki Sawashiro
Choe Myeonghwa - Aya Hirano
Hao Huiyu - Yukari Tamura

Eisui
Komaki Jindai - Mamiko Noto
Tomoe Karijuku - Sachika Misawa
Haru Takimi - Ayane Sakura
Hatsumi Usuzumi - Yuka Iguchi
Kasumi Iwato - Yuko Goto


and the remaining Shiraitodai:
Takami Shibuya - Mariya Ise
Seiko Matano - Haruka Tomatsu
Awai Oohoshi - Hisako Kanemoto
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Old 2012-12-02, 00:02   Link #2437
Myssa Rei
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Oh hey, it does look like the Biyori chapter IS about Shiraitodai after all.
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Old 2012-12-02, 01:57   Link #2438
Peanutbutter
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Nice analyis and breakdown there. Now I'm curious. What mode was Saki in when she took her shoes against Koromo?

Spoiler for maybe:
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Old 2012-12-02, 13:18   Link #2439
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Oh hey, it does look like the Biyori chapter IS about Shiraitodai after all.
Yep and its not bad. But beware Shiraitodai shows their true nature and they are a terrifying bunch.
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Old 2012-12-02, 17:33   Link #2440
Bladezer
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Originally Posted by Felyndiira View Post
Kasumi's ability isn't to draw the exact tile she needs, though - it's simply to draw 'tiles of one suit and honors'. This is also a bit of a strange case, since Toki's foresight in Kuro's case never really extended to her draws, but only to her discards (she was only really able to complete a hand once in the two times she faced , and that time Toki never tried to change the flow at all). As a result, the draws are still Schrodinger's tiles at this point so it still does not invalidate Toki's ability, whereas a specific Tsumo call would make the tile obvious and would make the two abilities clash directly.
Toki did call to change the flow to stop Kuro from winning, although Kuro is actually easier to disrupt since she needs to draw specific tiles to get a win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felyndiira View Post
There is an entire article out there analyzing Kuro's ability and how it can be used if, say, we kept the ability constant but switched Kuro with a better player like Hisa or Hiroe:

http://www.fnsna.net/side/?p=1238

Of course, the problem is still Teru's Ea, which we've already noted to have way too much dominance of the board.
Well that's interesting and all, but I want to know a way for Kuro to improve her skill with her ability like how Koromo told Yuuki to try and make every game a single east round. I'm guessing maybe before the finals she'll figure away out to make her magnet more like Yuu's, basically a loophole in her ability that she can abuse.

I'm actually wondering who can stop Teru's board dominance besides Saki. I'm guessing Cold Touka would be able to challenge her. Don't know if this has been noted, but what really makes her scary even when she has 3 limiters on her, she can still tear things up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felyndiira View Post
As for the four kans, it's actually notable that Kuro does not always draw dora (she does, however, shut anyone else from drawing it). She's also never shown to draw more than three of any one dora tile in any of her plays that I remember, so that might be implicitly a limitation to her ability. Also, the red-5 doras that she also tends to draw basically nulls that possibility, and is possibly the reason why she never calls kans (since it could very easily lock her into having 14 doras and being forced to discard one).
I actually have a theory that Kuro does always draw Dora, its just they ura dora and kan dora. I only suggested a 4 melded kans yakuman because it was the most likely way for Kuro to improve her ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felyndiira View Post
Just randomly throwing it out there, but the 'Achiga's Captain is a monkey' joke still cracks me up whenever I see it.
I don't mind good old fashioned teasing, after all I love the bit when someone poked fun at the possibility of the captain battle becoming one where Saki said Shizuno was just a pathetic washboard, and how the 4th captain would be like, 'what the hell I'm chooped liver'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
Saki vs. Kuro


This fight is a bit lopsided. Saki has a history of trumping powers that are suppose to be absolute, but even if we give Kuro the hypothetical advantage and assume that Saki won't be getting any dora which includes the kan dora. Kuro is a still outmatched.
Where has Saki trumped absolute abilities, not saying your wrong, I genuinely want to know where Saki has done this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
For one, Kuro won't be getting the benefits of those kan dora since whenever Saki calls a kan, she is almost guaranteed to get a rinshan kaihou. Unless, Saki is planning something else. For reference of what Saki could plan to do just look at Teru's kan in Achiga-hen. Saki can also make Kuro's hand overflow with dora and force Kuro to choose to discarding a dora which will negates her power for the rest of the match or probably play into Saki's hand.
Kan dora, never help Kuro, they only really hinder her, unless maybe there were no aka dora.

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
Assuming both abilities are absolute and will not negate each other.
Kasumi and Kuro will not draw the 1 pin.
After all, Kasumi has many pin tiles + honor to draw from. Kuro, on the other hand, would draw other doras and tiles that are not Kasumi's one suit. This way both abilities will stay true without any hassle.

Now, the next question would be?
If no one draws the one-pin? Where will it go?

I believe that due to both abilities, it would then have a drastically lowered chance to draw for all players so it would probably be relegated as the last tile that could be drawn on the live wall. Another possibility is the one pin would be stuck on the dead wall where no one can draws it.
No I'm pretty sure it would got to Kuro, although I believe someone said that Kasumi's suit magnet doesn't usually have the dora in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teja208 View Post
Koromo: AFTER PLAYING THEM, I THINK YOU MIGHT HAVE QUITE AN ENEMY, SAKI.
Saki: THAT'S OKEY. I'D BE HAPPY TO PLAY SOMEONE STRONG.
Koromo: NO...
Koromo: ACHIGA'S CAPTAIN...
...
...
...
...IS A MONKEY.

Well, I don't see anything funny about that.
...
...
...
Okay that is hilarious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felyndiira View Post
Also, this might be an old topic, but I just noticed this little detail today after my fifth readthrouth of this chapter. Remember when Saki said she 'had to resort to +/- 0' and was afraid of Kyouko?

Images
Why Saki is afraid of Kyouko, and why Saki resorted to +/- 0 (spoilers from chapter 90)
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
That's actually really interesting and really great that you figured it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
I would just like to add some things. Beside Kyouko and Kasumi nullifying Saki's kan, I think one of the main reason, Saki said Kyouko was troublesome was because Kyouko technically put Saki's score below zero.

Remember, Saki said that she started the round by using the mental trick that Hisa taught her back in the first chapter. So this would be the beginning score :

Saki : 25,000 - 24,000 = 1000
Kyouko : 25,000 + 8,000 = 33,000
Kasumi :25,000 + 8,000 = 33,0000
Toyone: 25,000 + 8,000 = 33,000

East 1st round

As Felyndiira said, Kyouko "accidentally" stopped Saki's kan. Kyouko called something allowing Kasumi to get the tile Saki needs and since Kasumi is a really good defender she kept it. Anyway the round ends with Kyouko ronning Toyone.

Saki : 1,000
Kyouko : 33,000 + 3,900 = 36,900
Kasumi : 33,000
Toyone: 33,000 - 3,900 = 29,100


East 2nd round

Saki is looking remarkably put out. Anyway, this round ends with Kyouko doing a tsumo. (2,000/1000)

Saki : 1,000 - 1,000 = 0
Kyouko : 36,900 + 4,000 = 40,900
Kasumi : 33,000 - 1,000 = 32,000
Toyone : 29,100 - 2,000 = 27,100

East 3rd round
I think Saki is still a bit shaken in this round. Unfortunately, this is Saki's dealership and she got hit by a ron. Ouch. And consequently if we follow her perspective, she is also below zero. Double ouch. Notably, it was Kyouko who did this by directly hitting Saki.

Saki : 0 - 2,600 = -2,600
Kyouko : 40,900 + 2,600 = 43,500
Kasumi : 32,000
Toyone: 27,100

I hypothesize that this is the time wherein Saki decides to switch out of Hisa's mental trick and go for the easier and more comfortable (for her, anyway) +/-zero route. If you check the manga page, we get Toyone and Kasumi's reaction to this win which is in the variation of easy going comments about how Kyouko seems to be rushing her win. Saki doesn't have any comment and now we know why.

East 4th round (Saki is already in the +/-zero mode)
This is Kyouko's dealership. She is once again rushing to get a quick win. But, the moment she did a riichi, Saki called a kan on Kyouko's discards and won.
Rinshan Kaihou for 8,000 points + 1,000 for the riichi stick. That was some quick revenge.


Additional comments:

I am not surprised that Hisa's mental trick didn't work. There is this tiny problem with tricks - it only works effectively if you didn't know that there is a trick involved. Since, Saki is essentially trying to trick herself, then its effectiveness would probably be reduced. In fact, I would hazard to guess that Saki doing Hisa's mental trick is more of a handicap than anything else in this match. Even when Saki first used it, it was remarked to be quite a feat to achieve. And now, with the "trick" revealed to Saki- most of its effectiveness is probably gone. It probably didn't help Saki's mental state either when it failed; ultimately causing Saki to do +/-zero as a comfort blanket.
Okay, this really helps explains Saki being afraid of Kyouko, this also makes me think if Saki was to try and use Hisa's mental trick against Shizuno, she would lose, badly.

Something else I wanted to add to how I noticed how Saki and Teru both had winning strikes in their styles, Saki's last win against Koromo was a 4 melded Kans, a yakuman hand, and Teru is theorized to be able to get a Nine Gate yakuman, so it seems that the Miyanaga sibilings winning strikes all end with yakuman hands.

Does anyone have any guesses as to who the other 3 yakuman in the tournament, you know the yakumans mentioned in chapter 15 on page 15, I'm guessing 2 of them came from Rinkai and Usuzan, but that doesn't tell me where the other one comes from.

Also just wondering but has anyone complied a list of points that characters lose and win for each round for every match, or does someone want to do that?
And I don't mean the total amount of points earned and lost overall, I want to know points gained and lost for each round in a match.

Finally I would like to add that Yuuki is the anti-Teru, since Yuuki is most dangerous during the east round and will actively seek to drop someone below 0, just how Teru becomes the most dangerous in the final round. Plus with Sumire having a tell, I'm guessing that Mako willbe able to spot it, since she uses matches from her memory to help her play.

P.S Sorry for the long post but you guys really know how to get a debate going.

Last edited by Bladezer; 2012-12-02 at 18:11.
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