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Old 2006-01-12, 23:15   Link #381
4Tran
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Let me reiterate: character development != change. Character development == finding out more about a character (personality, etc.). If a character is given development, but she is not shown to change, then this is referred to as static development.
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Old 2006-01-12, 23:54   Link #382
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No, it's called poor writing.
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Old 2006-01-13, 00:39   Link #383
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Hahaha. That's what I get for trusting wiki too much. Of course what I should have said was that the methodology would be considered static characterization, which is a subset of character development. The opposite would be dynamic characterization, which several people seem to be misinterpreting as the only type of charater development.

kodachrome, while you may not like static characterization, it's sort of rude to simply dismiss it as poor writing. After all, many of the greatest literary characters are constructed using this technique. Indeed, pretty much all writers use this technique to some extent, and static characters are much more prevalent than you would think.
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Old 2006-01-13, 02:59   Link #384
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Originally Posted by kodachrome
No, it's called poor writing.
Ding ding ding!
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Old 2006-01-13, 05:14   Link #385
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Actually, i think 4Tran and kodachrome are both right in a way

4Tran is correct about static characterization... it is a tool that a lot of writings use and in most stories you can find characters that they go deep into detail, but never actual allow the character to change... it works out very well when used correctly

However, the reason i say Kodachrome is right is because the static characterization definatly doesn't work for Lacus...
Lacus is seen as a goddess that no one ever questions and can do know wrong... she's so perfect that she is a terriblly unbeliviable character... i find her to be just incredible dull, i just find nothing really that interesting about her character... she is a character who could really use some change... godfibid she would be wrong about something

I can say the same about GSD Kira... he did change alot in GS and over the 2 years, but once GSD actually began his Character became as stale as Lacus's... His character is the only thing more flawless then his piloting skills...

Characters that are never wrong, and carry no flaws are incredibly dull... hell, thinking about it, GSD Kira and Lacus weren't even very emotional characters... godforbid we might actually have see Lacus cry over the death of her father in GS...

This is why i like GS Kira a hell of a lot more... other then his piloting ability, he was a rather believable character


Though my memeory is rusty(so feel free to correct me), i think Treize had static characterization... aswell as, Rau, Dullindal and quite a few others... but because of the roles they played and their default characterization, dynamic development was not needed, so it worked for them, but failed for Lacus and GSD Kira
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Old 2006-01-13, 06:31   Link #386
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I say SEED is still more complex because of the entire Naturals VS Coordinators thing. At least in SEED we actually knew what the hell everything was all about because it was explained, even though it was kind of hard to digest (like, why do Naturals hate Coordinators so much, so and so). It was not as simple as prejudice, it was not as simple as being envious, rather, it was way deeper. Naturals detested Coordinators for being aberrations of mankind,so what is new and complex about that? Well, for starters, not all Naturals think Coordinators are evil just because of enhanced genes, and what have you; they are maybe envious, intersperesed with anger, fear, and a whole lot of other emotions, and these were fully explained in great detail (these emotions, that is) in the likes of Fllay, the supporters of the Blue Cosmos, the leader of that Artemis base, the whole Archangel crew when they first knew about Kira being a Coordinator, etc., etc. Also, it's not that simple going against your best friend. Sure, you have fights sometimes, but they are just petty fights against the war that both Kira and Athrun were; feelings of betrayal, feelings of disbelief, confusion, feelings of doubt, feelings of asking where your loyalties lie: a cause you have sworn to put yourself into for the sake of those who were mercilessly killed and were your comrades, family, or your best best friend whom you were very close and shared everything with? SEED was peopled with very complex characters (Fllay, Rau) who actually gave depth to the story altogether, eventhough its premise was based on the tried and tested formula of Gundam. It became so complex that it wasn't just about being caught in a war with huge super robots at your side or what have you; it actually had a story.

GSD... The only thing that was complex in that series was Shinn and Dullindal, but the story was far simpler, because for some strange reason, most of the fans already pointed out Dullindal as the obviously evil bad guy to teh 92462054607579873489653th power with their eyes closed. And basically, it was just what SEED was, Naturals VS Coordinators, with the Naturals becoming more and more evil as the series progressed and their reactions as simple as "RRRRAAAAGGGGHHHH kill all Coordinators they are the aberrations and pests of humanity" without being given much thought into it. The poor Minerva crew are just thrown into situations even uglier than the last time they went into combat, ranging from their first brush with the Girty Lue up to their last battle with the invincible Archangel. It was only about fights, clashes, only little time for character interaction, and what "little" character that its main character had shown brilliantly throughout the series was nerfed right at the middle; it was such a waste of a very well written character, and his descent to the Dark Side is just utterly ridiculous. What was GSD all about? The holiness of Lacus' ideals and how it is the absolute epitome of everything that is held sacred in the entire universe. It's just as simple as that. Oh, and it also means that once you get in Lacus' way, you are just screwed. In SEED it was also the same premise, but at least it had the Freedom VS Providence fight in it...^_____^;;
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Old 2006-01-13, 08:56   Link #387
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kodachrome, while you may not like static characterization, it's sort of rude to simply dismiss it as poor writing. After all, many of the greatest literary characters are constructed using this technique. Indeed, pretty much all writers use this technique to some extent, and static characters are much more prevalent than you would think.
As Slayer said, with Lacus, it's called poor writing (or perhaps lazy?). Someone decided she needed to be a Fllay foil, and poof, no real thought required except flip over some elements of Fllay and apply them to Lacus. If you were to look at her as a foil only, yes, she is "well written" - in that context of foils - but as a character, standalone, not looking at how contrasted she is from Fllay, she is poorly written.
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Old 2006-01-13, 16:19   Link #388
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
I say SEED is still more complex because of the entire Naturals VS Coordinators thing. At least in SEED we actually knew what the hell everything was all about because it was explained, even though it was kind of hard to digest (like, why do Naturals hate Coordinators so much, so and so). It was not as simple as prejudice, it was not as simple as being envious, rather, it was way deeper. Naturals detested Coordinators for being aberrations of mankind,so what is new and complex about that? Well, for starters, not all Naturals think Coordinators are evil just because of enhanced genes, and what have you; they are maybe envious, intersperesed with anger, fear, and a whole lot of other emotions, and these were fully explained in great detail (these emotions, that is) in the likes of Fllay, the supporters of the Blue Cosmos, the leader of that Artemis base, the whole Archangel crew when they first knew about Kira being a Coordinator, etc., etc. Also, it's not that simple going against your best friend. Sure, you have fights sometimes, but they are just petty fights against the war that both Kira and Athrun were; feelings of betrayal, feelings of disbelief, confusion, feelings of doubt, feelings of asking where your loyalties lie: a cause you have sworn to put yourself into for the sake of those who were mercilessly killed and were your comrades, family, or your best best friend whom you were very close and shared everything with? SEED was peopled with very complex characters (Fllay, Rau) who actually gave depth to the story altogether, eventhough its premise was based on the tried and tested formula of Gundam. It became so complex that it wasn't just about being caught in a war with huge super robots at your side or what have you; it actually had a story.

GSD... The only thing that was complex in that series was Shinn and Dullindal, but the story was far simpler, because for some strange reason, most of the fans already pointed out Dullindal as the obviously evil bad guy to teh 92462054607579873489653th power with their eyes closed. And basically, it was just what SEED was, Naturals VS Coordinators, with the Naturals becoming more and more evil as the series progressed and their reactions as simple as "RRRRAAAAGGGGHHHH kill all Coordinators they are the aberrations and pests of humanity" without being given much thought into it. The poor Minerva crew are just thrown into situations even uglier than the last time they went into combat, ranging from their first brush with the Girty Lue up to their last battle with the invincible Archangel. It was only about fights, clashes, only little time for character interaction, and what "little" character that its main character had shown brilliantly throughout the series was nerfed right at the middle; it was such a waste of a very well written character, and his descent to the Dark Side is just utterly ridiculous. What was GSD all about? The holiness of Lacus' ideals and how it is the absolute epitome of everything that is held sacred in the entire universe. It's just as simple as that. Oh, and it also means that once you get in Lacus' way, you are just screwed. In SEED it was also the same premise, but at least it had the Freedom VS Providence fight in it...^_____^;;
that was beutiful!sniper-sensei there's a video i posted in the ridiculous(sp?) pricture thread i know you'll like!it's dedicated to kiraxfllay!
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Old 2006-01-14, 10:45   Link #389
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@ dom



I can't get it to show.

@ 4Tran

Take out characterization and that's just exactly what Lacus is.
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Old 2006-01-14, 10:51   Link #390
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So, are we all clear on the difference between static characterization and character development? Good. Thank you for vindicating my point.

As to the argument about poor writing, I think that it is subjective enough that discussion on the matter is sort of pointless. After all, I think that the majority of Gundam is composed of poor writing, and I constantly see accusations of poor writing made about Shakespeare, of all people.

Cerridwen, most of your argument about relative complexity is just an emotional appeal without addressing that ignores quite a lot of the themes in Destiny. Seed can be considered complex, but only on a personal level. Basically, after you get past the issues of Kira and Athrun, the rest of the story is fairly straightforward. The only really interesting question in Seed is Andrew's "When do you win a war?" By the way, Rau was not a complex character.

Destiny on the other hand, isn't really about Minerva, or Archangel or their respective crews. It's actually about ideas and group dynamics. It's also chock full of questions: "Are you really doing what do you want?", "What would you sacrifice to do your duty?", "What is the role of propoganda? And how should it be used?", and many others. You haven't addressed any of this, so your analysis is sorely lacking.

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Originally Posted by kodachrome
Someone decided she needed to be a Fllay foil, and poof, no real thought required except flip over some elements of Fllay and apply them to Lacus.
To be a proper character foil, a character has to have traits in direct contrast to a principal character. I'm not sure I follow your reasoning - when did Lacus demonstrate trait in "direct contrast" to Fllay's?

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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Take out characterization and that's just exactly what Lacus is.
What the heck are you talking about? Why would you take characterization away from a character?
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Old 2006-01-14, 11:28   Link #391
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Originally Posted by 4Tran
Cerridwen, most of your argument about relative complexity is just an emotional appeal without addressing that ignores quite a lot of the themes in Destiny. Seed can be considered complex, but only on a personal level. Basically, after you get past the issues of Kira and Athrun, the rest of the story is fairly straightforward. The only really interesting question in Seed is Andrew's "When do you win a war?" By the way, Rau was not a complex character.
What goes on inside of a person's mind isn't as complex as his physical actions?

It actually made things a lot more complicated, that is why we are arguing about certain decisions characters made. What made them do it? Why? What the hell were they thinking?

Everything was done on an emotional level. Personal, as you said. That makes it complicated.

Also, Rau was very complicated. He was doing all these weird things without looking very evil or to his subordinates. And it wasn't just kill all humans on teh entire universe for him. He was intelligent, he was suave in a way, he could actually lead his men into battle, he could kick ass in a MS (grunt suit or otherwise), and he strongly believed in his ideals, demented, but probably right (he was actually right about all people wanting power and how this power kills people and how people will continue killing each other for power and what have you) in a sense. Unlike certain "I am right and you are wrong" characters...

Quote:
Destiny on the other hand, isn't really about Minerva, or Archangel or their respective crews. It's actually about ideas and group dynamics. It's also chock full of questions: "Are you really doing what do you want?", "What would you sacrifice to do your duty?", "What is the role of propoganda? And how should it be used?", and many others. You haven't addressed any of this, so your analysis is sorely lacking.
No. It was all about Minerva, the Archangel, then the characters themselves. Ideas are just ideas without any emotions that were involved that led to them thinking those ideas. It was all about disjointed thinking, illogical presentation of how one ideal seems to fit all, and how the villains of the first season have become complete idiots the second time around. You do realize that the people that really mattered were just shunted to one side so the spotlight could shine on all of them? I mean, EAF was only shown for a couple eps doing nothing but crying "all you Coordinators die die die RRRRRAAAAAAGGGGHHH", ZAFT people (especially the Supreme Council) only saying "Yes Dullindal" "No Dullindal" "Right away Mr. Dullindal", then Lacus spouting silly nonsensical sermons that have the entire world chanting "LACUS-SAMA~~~!!!" over and over again like they never have any brains to begin with...

Group dynamics? Yeah right, if you're pertaining to how all of Lacus' Clyne Faction/Terminal members go nodding at the same time to the "beliefs" she presents to them. Other than that, GSD is just SEED, only even more convoluted and confusing and even disturbing, to a degree. But underneath the confusion, just plain and simple as day.

Really, these questions you're throwing back at me are very simple in the CE sense. It's either Lacus or go broke. That's just that.

Quote:
To be a proper character foil, a character has to have traits in direct contrast to a principal character. I'm not sure I follow your reasoning - when did Lacus demonstrate trait in "direct contrast" to Fllay's?
Oh take away Fllay's bitchy side, exchange manipulative nature into GODDESS nature, make her a Mary Sue (I think they also reversed Fllay's hotness to Lacus'...um...so so-ness)...and voila! You have Lacus!

Quote:
What the heck are you talking about? Why would you take characterization away from a character?
I was being sarcastic. Lacus simply has no character at all. She's just static.
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Old 2006-01-14, 12:43   Link #392
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Originally Posted by sniper

Also, Rau was very complicated. He was doing all these weird things without looking very evil or to his subordinates. And it wasn't just kill all humans on teh entire universe for him. He was intelligent, he was suave in a way, he could actually lead his men into battle, he could kick ass in a MS (grunt suit or otherwise), and he strongly believed in his ideals, demented, but probably right (he was actually right about all people wanting power and how this power kills people and how people will continue killing each other for power and what have you) in a sense. Unlike certain "I am right and you are wrong" characters...
*cough*lacus*cough*

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Oh take away Fllay's bitchy side, exchange manipulative nature into GODDESS nature, make her a Mary Sue (I think they also reversed Fllay's hotness to Lacus'...um...so so-ness)...and voila! You have Lacus!
fllay>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>lacus,it's a universal fact.
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Originally Posted by sniper
I was being sarcastic. Lacus simply has no character at all. She's just static.
so true.by the way i'll check what's wrong with the video and why you can't see it.
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Old 2006-01-14, 13:13   Link #393
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o be a proper character foil, a character has to have traits in direct contrast to a principal character. I'm not sure I follow your reasoning - when did Lacus demonstrate trait in "direct contrast" to Fllay's?
... Like the entire series...?

I know you hate my one line replies like that, but seriously... off the top of my head, the entire series is the best short answer I can give you.

It starts off as very blatant: Lacus, the accepter of all, and Fllay, a tool of discrimination reflecting her fathers bias with the Earth Alliance. That scene contrasts them VERY well AND makes Lacus look like the "Good guy" because she isbeing so PEACEFUL AND HAPPY AND CUTE and Fllay is being SO MEAN AND CRUEL AND HISSY about her being a Coordinator. Then, the contrast gradually grows with a few peaks in the middle, until the very last episode when Fllay dies and only Kira notices and Lacus lives with her faction on top with a lot of people noticing her and her words. In a way, Fllay is this kind of forgotten person. This is characterized by her fathers death - people who say, "You were George Allster's daughter?" labeling her as that, and her mental deterioration from the manipulation of Kira to Klueze turning the manipulation and convinced her everyone thought she was dead (she thought she was forgotten to the people who she cared about thinking she was alive) as well as Kira only remembering her when he sees her lipstick on the floor (her existance is summarized by a thing of lipstick and not her herself). While Lacus remains the ever loud (loud as in... you know she's there...) evidence of power and strength, who has her control much firmer than Fllay. A big part where they are foils, and where you see them contrast, is how Lacus is able to control so much more fluidly than Fllay. Or more specifically, their manipulation of Kira. Kira makes them the same promise - I will carry your thoughts onto the battle field. And he does, and Lacus ultimately wins there. Lacus's victory of the manipulation of Kira contrasts Fllay's not-victory of the manipulation of Kira. Fllay might've "won" for a while, but Fllay lost her grip when she thought Kira was pitying her in the episode where he was trying to avoid asking his parents in ORB why they made him a Coordinator. He saw through her at that moment, got a little freaked out, and they parted ways. You could argue that Lacus was not manipulating Kira, but when you consider she also handed him a Gundam, I'd say you have a weak argument against the thought of her trying to manipulate something. It's like it's your birthday and you say, "Well, I MIGHT want this or that, but you know..." I mean, come on, how more obvious and not-vague can you be? She was ultimately manipulating Kira back into kind of a fighting spirit, to go rescue his friends, but at teh same time, she was instigating something. By giving Kira Freedom, she kind of instigated the end of the war. Fllay does too contribute to the instigation of the end of the war when she very willingly (and also very naive...) accepts the disk from Klueze and goes to deliver it to Azrael, thinking it would end the war. Obviously it doesn't: It just incites more flames and the firing of GENESIS, and that is another excellent point where they contrast. Fllay's attempt/effort to the end of the war lead to more destruction, while Lacus's attempt/effort to end it lead to the actual end. I find Fllay is a very realistic character, in her attributes of will to manipulate for somekind of "wrong" purpose, as well as her use of her body, and her kind of attention-y thing (ie: when she yelled out, "I'm here come get me, i have the key to end the war" etc etc), as well as her more crazed and desparate and demanding self when she threatens to kill Lacus and her ability to place guilt when she says it's all Kira's fault her father died. Her traits can be likened to things that real people do. Maybe not in the same way or teh same reason (... obviously), but those are things people do. And I find Meer to be the same kind of realism, same with Shinn. Notably, people who don't like Fllay, Meer, and Shinn, often name things things that make them realistic as things they dislike about those characters. Meer being "annoying" or "being a Lacus imposter" (refering to people criticizing her for being pathetic for doing it - she is displaying this fake fulfillment by doing it, and that is very, very real among a lot of people) seem to be big ones, and for Shinn, his bias and arrogance and kind of conformity as well as disregard for rules. I find those all to be... very normal. And... if Fllay is a realistic character, and her realism contrasts Lacus... then... well... that makes Lacus... rather unrealistic.
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Old 2006-01-14, 13:23   Link #394
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Since when GSD has any reason to exist except to market for gunpla for BANDAI? No character development, deux ex machina hero(es), illogical escape from death and pointless side characters. Bad writing did not help either.

No story, no good plot. What is the point of the anime in 1st place? None.

Afterthoughts: In fact, I will describe GSD as Boy Band with mechas, inserted with few confused Britney Spears in nutshell.
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Old 2006-01-14, 13:27   Link #395
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No story, no good plot. What is the point of the anime in 1st place? None.
well pretty much to cash in on the huge popularity of the GS characters and sell products. It might annoy the hell out of us but the anime is nothing but one huge commercial for bandai.
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Old 2006-01-14, 13:52   Link #396
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Originally Posted by kodachrome
You could argue that Lacus was not manipulating Kira, but when you consider she also handed him a Gundam, I'd say you have a weak argument against the thought of her trying to manipulate something. It's like it's your birthday and you say, "Well, I MIGHT want this or that, but you know..." I mean, come on, how more obvious and not-vague can you be? She was ultimately manipulating Kira back into kind of a fighting spirit, to go rescue his friends, but at teh same time, she was instigating something. By giving Kira Freedom, she kind of instigated the end of the war.
I agree she wanted to cause something to happen, but I don't like the word "manipulate". It's a loaded word which I don't think entirely applies. Besides, she didn't give Freedom to Kira to make him want to fight. She first ascertained he still wanted to fight, but this time for the "good" reasons, and then gave him Freedom.

Quote:
I find Fllay is a very realistic character, in her attributes of will to manipulate for somekind of "wrong" purpose, as well as her use of her body, and her kind of attention-y thing (ie: when she yelled out, "I'm here come get me, i have the key to end the war" etc etc), as well as her more crazed and desparate and demanding self when she threatens to kill Lacus and her ability to place guilt when she says it's all Kira's fault her father died. Her traits can be likened to things that real people do.
Agreed. But they're not likeable traits, and she takes them to extremes. (Not that it's unrealistic for her to do so; she was in an extreme situation.)

Quote:
Maybe not in the same way or teh same reason (... obviously), but those are things people do. And I find Meer to be the same kind of realism, same with Shinn. Notably, people who don't like Fllay, Meer, and Shinn, often name things things that make them realistic as things they dislike about those characters.
Well, yeah. I don't like those characteristics in real people, I don't see why I should like them in fictitious ones. I can accept that people possessing those characteristics are realistic, well written (if they are), and necessary to the story. But don't expect me to root for them. Or to not be sadistically happy when bad stuff happens to them.

Yes, I know, I'm a bastard. It's another one of those realistic characteristics that people have.

Quote:
Meer being "annoying" or "being a Lacus imposter" (refering to people criticizing her for being pathetic for doing it - she is displaying this fake fulfillment by doing it, and that is very, very real among a lot of people) seem to be big ones,
Eh. I don't really dislike Meer - though I can't really what people see in her besides big breasts - but as far as her being an imposter being "realistic"... Identity theft isn't that common IRL. I'd say there also was something weird about her "I'm Lacus!" way of thinking, and her readiness to murder the original.

Quote:
and for Shinn, his bias and arrogance and kind of conformity as well as disregard for rules. I find those all to be... very normal.
Indeed. I knew there was a reason I disliked adolescents!

Quote:
And... if Fllay is a realistic character, and her realism contrasts Lacus... then... well... that makes Lacus... rather unrealistic.
I prefer to think of her as "exceptional". (In her personality. Her accomplishments are, indeed, unrealistic, but she's hardly alone there. It's anime, after all.) While I don't believe in the divine aspect of sainthood, I do believe some people are deeply dedicated to making the world a better place, and won't let themselves be prejudiced or hateful.

Note, I'm not calling Lacus a saint, or denying she's done some things of dubious ethicality.

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Old 2006-01-14, 14:11   Link #397
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Originally Posted by 4Tran

To be a proper character foil, a character has to have traits in direct contrast to a principal character. I'm not sure I follow your reasoning - when did Lacus demonstrate trait in "direct contrast" to Fllay's?
Fllay is self-centered ,Lacus is completly devoted to other people

Fllay is manipulative ,Lacus only helps people see what they really want to do.

Fllay use her body to attain her objective, Lacus hasn't kissed her boyfriend yet

Fllay is a racist , Lacus loves everyone equally , as long as they don't go for genocide.

Edit: About GSD "failure " I don't think I can add a lot . If it's a financial succes it's sucks as a show and it's a texbook example of what not to do with a good story .

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Old 2006-01-14, 14:17   Link #398
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I suck . Delete this ,please.
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Old 2006-01-14, 17:04   Link #399
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Liam-don , long time lurker , first time poster , die hard Fllay fanboi
(shakes your hand)glad to meet a fellow fllay fanboy you are really are one right?
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Old 2006-01-14, 19:04   Link #400
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I don't know why im defending GSD, but it does have a story. Sure the story started off well enough. but then it slowly declined. i mean to some ti ahd an air of mystery, like "whos' behind what." but then they decided to waste some of the eps on useless stuff. some of the talkign eps were just boring, and really had nothign of importance for them. i guess it was too episodic in a sense. a couple of eps could have been taken out and you'd still know whats going on. which for teh most part was nothing. now i wouldn't mind if there was meanignful chracter intereaction, but it wasn't.

the eps where athrun tried to mentor shinn were just pointless. Shinn learned nothing, and athrun was still confused. but thats what athrun does best. the good guy cast shouldn't have been expanded as much. Talia not handle right. Meryin was handle ill, then they used her properly, but then she loose out. the old cast wasn't handled right either.

now the Villains had a lot of potential. Djibril was okay, but he lacked enough screen time to be good, and he ssems like a villian out of the bond series. Neo was okay, he just had no morals, but he seemed pointless after 32. he couldn't do anything worthwild after that either. The extendeds oh boy they werea lost cause depsite being slightly diffrent form the original three.

there were no interesting battles after they landed on earth. they were predictable fights. Then there were no important protagonist/antagonist interactions either., then the Destiny plan was unbelivable.
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