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Old 2012-11-27, 21:37   Link #1721
Random Wanderer
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I like Mako's Grandmother. Feisty.

Wait... looking for a tank inside the ship? How would one even get in there?

...And of course they get lost.

Wait... they found the PzIV's gun just sitting out there... being used as a clothesline? Why would that even be outside like that?

You all say that's a Tiger? How did it get belowdecks?

That... thing... Anzio fielded... Why?! For crying out loud, the girl driving it is practically bigger than it is! It looks like a child's toy: a fake tank for kids to drive around, like Power Wheels or something. Armed only with a machinegun... The Type 89 could take that thing out, and isn't that a sad note to go out on?

Quote:
It's too bad the Tiger isn't a Panther instead.
There's just no satisfying some of you people. Flaws or no, they finally got a tank that's worthwhile, and y'all have to complain about how it isn't better.

Personally I still hope the volleyball team trades up for one of those two. Those girls deserve better than to be stuck in that thing of theirs.
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Old 2012-11-27, 21:43   Link #1722
Myssa Rei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
Personally I still hope the volleyball team trades up for one of those two. Those girls deserve better than to be stuck in that thing of theirs.
Depending on who you ask, it seems that the Char B1 Bis is the prime candidate for the trade-in, if the trio in the OP don't get it first that is.
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Old 2012-11-27, 22:03   Link #1723
Random Wanderer
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Random thought... Looking back, seeing the volleyball team members calling Mako "Reizei-sempai" feels rather weird. It is very hard to think of those tall, busty girls as first-year students.
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Old 2012-11-27, 22:14   Link #1724
gaiar31
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Novel Ver. - Saori Story - On sale Now

--Novel ver. same Miho story but chang to Saori view-

Spoiler:


Saori ..sorry i type wrong

Last edited by gaiar31; 2012-11-27 at 22:35.
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Old 2012-11-27, 22:19   Link #1725
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Originally Posted by gaiar31 View Post
Novel Ver. - Yukari Story - On sale Now

--Novel ver. same Miho story but chang to Yukari view-

Spoiler:

Isn't that novel Saori's POV ????
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Old 2012-11-27, 22:19   Link #1726
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
It's too bad the Tiger isn't a Panther instead.
For what reason would you have to have the most faulty panzer from WW2? The transmission drive alone was enough to make it useless most of the time.
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Old 2012-11-27, 22:36   Link #1727
Random Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
For what reason would you have to have the most faulty panzer from WW2? The transmission drive alone was enough to make it useless most of the time.
I don't know how the two compare, but I would like the point out that the Tiger (p) was sufficiently faulty that it never made it into production, and only 5 prototypes were manufactured.
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Old 2012-11-27, 22:54   Link #1728
wontaek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
For what reason would you have to have the most faulty panzer from WW2? The transmission drive alone was enough to make it useless most of the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_tank#Combat_use

Though its Final Drive has some problems, it is a problem of wear and tear. In Senshado setting where teams won't likely drive more than 100km per battle AND be able to refit the whole drive between each battle, the Final Drive and Transmission would not likely be of a problem. If so, Panther may be operationally more useful compared to slower Tiger in many situations.

From Wikipedia

The Panther tank was a compromise of various requirements. While sharing essentially the same engine as the Tiger I tank, it had better frontal armor (including the benefit of a sloping angle, increasing effective armor depth), better gun penetration, was lighter overall and thus faster, and could handle rough terrain better than the Tigers. The tradeoff was weaker side armor; the Panther proved to be deadly in open country and shooting from long range, but vulnerable to close-quarters combat. Also, the 75 mm gun fired a slightly smaller shell than the Tiger's 88 mm gun, providing less high explosive firepower against infantry.
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Old 2012-11-27, 22:58   Link #1729
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
I would like the point out that the Tiger (p) was sufficiently faulty that it never made it into production
It lost to Henschel in a competition. If Porsche was the only company making the Tiger, there was the possibility things would have gone on to complete the tank for full production. Think of the YF-23: It lost to the YF-22, but was still a possible form.



@ wontaek: Aside from the drive, there are other problems, such as the turret traverse drive (not strong enough to either turn the turret or hold it in place when the Panther is on an incline of more than 20 degrees, thus not capable of firing when driving cross-country) and the neutral steer function (while theoratically both steering levers could operated simultaneously, that almost always led to breakdowns resulting in an immobile tank). For all purposes, the Tiger has more tactical use than the Panther, at least within the context of RL.



Also, the Wiki articles tend to be too pro-German when it comes to tanks.

Last edited by Sumeragi; 2012-11-27 at 23:09.
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Old 2012-11-27, 23:04   Link #1730
Master_Yoma
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Well showing the other of the groups and there just so cute
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Old 2012-11-27, 23:12   Link #1731
garbage
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The flashback of Miho's fight against Pravda explains what happened leading up to her transferring to Ooarai. It also tells us what a poor tactical move she made. You never move into tight terrain like that unless you're certain that there are no enemies in the vicinity. If they're there, then they will pick your entire force off while you're unable to respond or even to retreat properly. Miho should have sent a Pz. III ahead of the main group, and only have followed up when the path was clear. On the other hand, her rescue of the submerged Pz. III is commendable - any other action is unconscionable.
funny how you're so fast on blaming Miho on that sequence when you yourself indicated you don't even know the situation involving that event, or if even Maho was there. Sure Miho's a tank commander of the flag tank to boot, but it's not like she's the Main commander. Scouting, Terrain studies, and Tactics/strategy involving the whole platoon would be the purview of the Main commander. And if you think them being in that place was poor judgement then that falls on Maho too.

blame would fall on Miho if she insisted on this certain strategy/tactic against the advice of Maho, or worse if she acted without the knowledge/consent of Maho (doubtful with Miho's personality), but both would be strange since they do have radio, you know. All in all ultimate responsibility falls with Maho, as with anyone who's ever been with the military knows there is such a thing as COMMAND RESPONSIBILITY and with good reasons too.

All in all there's not enough info about the event to lay blame on anyone, but Command responsibility puts it on Maho. But i don't think it's even that important for the plot or the show. In fact never in the Show was it ever hinted that Maho and her family ever blamed Miho for any tactical error, or even for the loss (she blames herself though). All their dialogues seems to indicate they were disappointed only because Miho ran away from Senshado and the family instead of accepting that loss and moving forward.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I'd blame Miho. Even if Maho gave the overall order to advance along the river, Miho still had the authority to decide how to advance. The route might be just a map feature for Maho, but someone who can see the terrain would know just what a bad idea is. Scrubbing the advance altogether isn't a bad idea, but even just sending a scout would have done wonders.
And here you're even insulting Maho, what kind of Proper Commander from a well known martial family/school, with 9 straight winning record wouldn't even know how to properly assess terrain with a proper map. If it is as you say things on the map is "just a feature" for Maho. Then more so the blame would fall on her. what? she never learned how to properly read terrain maps? I sure would not want to be under a field commander like that.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Even so, they still talk about tanks in almost every scene.
well sure what else would they talk about ,it is Girls und Panzer right, it would be strange if they would start talking about mahjong (nyahaha just thought about Saki) . Still,I threw away Science concerns to a bare minimum ever since episode 1 or else i would never enjoy this. Giant carriers? Girls fighting with live tank ammos all the while staying outside the hatch? Spectators with little children on the streets and sidewalks during a match?oh come on! well i still like the show
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Old 2012-11-27, 23:19   Link #1732
Znail
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
You're looking at the wrong place. THIS is the Tiger P I'm talking about, which cannot be mistaken for anything else.

Ah, but those pictures obviously includes tanks they have or will be fighting rather then tanks they own. The 8 small tank pictures on the other hand are clearly their own tanks. Their is only one more left to be found there, as the team has 7 out of those 8 tanks right now.

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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
More importantly, you can see that the tank had the turret at the FRONT, the layout of the Tiger P. The Tiger I had a middle turret.
Looking at your picture so don't we see the front end of the tank. The tank chassi keeps going beyond the wall. There is a couch that might make it seem like the tank ends, but you can see the tank chassi stick up slightly above it.
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Old 2012-11-27, 23:20   Link #1733
Sumeragi
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For the specific incident, I do blame Miho for reacting without precaution such as getting a lesser vehicle in front of the flag tank. Her mother was right: Sacrifices are needed, and if you do not take precautions to ensure that the mission itself is not endangered in a serious matter, then not only have you forfeit your position as commander (be it of the tank, the platoon, or the force), but you also break the basics of any martial arts.


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Originally Posted by Znail View Post
Looking at your picture so don't we see the front end of the tank. The tank chassi keeps going beyond the wall. There is a couch that might make it seem like the tank ends, but you can see the tank chassi stick up slightly above it.
The turret is facing to the left of the tank. What we're seeing is the left side of the hull.
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Old 2012-11-27, 23:41   Link #1734
wontaek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
It lost to Henschel in a competition. If Porsche was the only company making the Tiger, there was the possibility things would have gone on to complete the tank for full production. Think of the YF-23: It lost to the YF-22, but was still a possible form.



@ wontaek: Aside from the drive, there are other problems, such as the turret traverse drive (not strong enough to either turn the turret or hold it in place when the Panther is on an incline of more than 20 degrees, thus not capable of firing when driving cross-country) and the neutral steer function (while theoratically both steering levers could operated simultaneously, that almost always led to breakdowns resulting in an immobile tank). For all purposes, the Tiger has more tactical use than the Panther, at least within the context of RL.



Also, the Wiki articles tend to be too pro-German when it comes to tanks.
If we want to consider real life, you also need to consider that you can make more than 2 Panthers for cost of 1 Tiger. Despite the problems you mentioned, most records in World War II claims that Panther was superior to most of tanks it fought against. The turret problem was eventually addressed in later models. Its Real Life Combat History shows that when operational, it had excellent kill ratio. You also need to consider that in Senshado setting, repairs and keeping tank operational for the action is much easier compared to real war situation, thus Panther breakdown problem is of less worry. In Oorai's case, they would be forced to adopt mobile defensive tactics for majority of times due to overall inferior quality of their tanks. In such case, where mobility is valued, Panther can be superior to Tiger. Finally, in Oorai's case, either Tiger or Panther would be fine as either one is superior to anything they have right now.
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Old 2012-11-28, 00:01   Link #1735
00Coyote
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That scene at the river during the match. My take on it, it was an ambush by Pravada. Black forest was re-positioning their flag tank. The Tiger was being escorted front and back, if it was an offensive maneuver toward a known enemy location, the 2 smaller tanks would have been in front. Even if they have confidence in the Tiger's armor, a well placed shot could still end it. (Notice where the Pravada tank was aiming for the winning shot.) After that scene, 2 questions immediately popped into my head.

1: Why was the Tiger the flag tank? By flagging such a powerhouse, you limit what it can contribute to the battle. Miho's (I assume) decision to flag the 38t is a good strategy. The flag can hang back, without hurting the overall offensive capabilities of the team. Saunders did the same thing by not flagging the Firefly. Let the big guns do their thing, let the lesser tanks worry about being a flag.

2: Why didn't the Tiger's crew cover for Miho when she went to rescue the drowning tank. They can't seriously be that helpless or incompetent to be unaware of their situation. "Oh gee, the Vice Commander just went swimming in a raging river. Oh look, there are enemy tank ahead of us. We should wait for Vice Commander to get back to tell us that we should be firing at them."

Black Forest walked into an ambush, with Pravada making excellent use of terrain and local conditions to aid in that ambush. It was a bad move by Maho/Miho to move their flag into such a limited space. Even if the other tank didn't go swimming the narrow path they were on would have severely limited any action by Black Forest.
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Old 2012-11-28, 00:19   Link #1736
Dark Wing
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Well They skipped the battle this episode but hopefully the manga will give it a little more focus.

As for the big lose that forced Miho to transfer. I don't think it was all her fault she couldn't have predicted one of their tanks going over the cliff nor the ambush.
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Old 2012-11-28, 00:22   Link #1737
whitecloud
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Anyway.... do you guys think the current lineup of tank against Pravda team is good?
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Old 2012-11-28, 00:30   Link #1738
velvet nightmare
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not sure why everyone is debating tactics, philosophies and strategies that 'could have been'. all those points are moot, the bottom line is she got out of her tank.

that's as good as surrendering the whole thing.
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Old 2012-11-28, 00:41   Link #1739
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
If we want to consider real life, you also need to consider that you can make more than 2 Panthers for cost of 1 Tiger.
What relevance does that have to Senshado or GuP?


Quote:
Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
Despite the problems you mentioned, most records in World War II claims that Panther was superior to most of tanks it fought against.
The Panther fought against inherently lesser opponents. It never truly faced an equal for the time, thus trying to say that a heavyweight is superior to a middleweight is not really an indication of superiority.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
The turret problem was eventually addressed in later models.
It was never solved, hence why the French had problems with their Panthers after the war.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
Its Real Life Combat History shows that when operational, it had excellent kill ratio. You also need to consider that in Senshado setting, repairs and keeping tank operational for the action is much easier compared to real war situation, thus Panther breakdown problem is of less worry.
It was always breaking down in battle. All the idea of "keeping tank operational" is useless if the tank fails during the battle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
In Oorai's case, they would be forced to adopt mobile defensive tactics for majority of times due to overall inferior quality of their tanks. In such case, where mobility is valued, Panther can be superior to Tiger.
That's the problem: The Panther was never truly mobile due to the inherent transmission and steering problems. Even with Mako-level skills, most likely we would have problems getting the Panther to be fully mobile, especially when we don't know the geography it would be fighting in.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
Finally, in Oorai's case, either Tiger or Panther would be fine as either one is superior to anything they have right now.
Irrelevant to the question of why not the Panther rather than the Tiger.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Coyote View Post
1: Why was the Tiger the flag tank? By flagging such a powerhouse, you limit what it can contribute to the battle. Miho's (I assume) decision to flag the 38t is a good strategy. The flag can hang back, without hurting the overall offensive capabilities of the team. Saunders did the same thing by not flagging the Firefly. Let the big guns do their thing, let the lesser tanks worry about being a flag.
What I can think of:

1. They most likely had more than one Tiger.
2. Unlike the other tanks, the Tiger had both offenseive and defensive capabilities. The Firefly had only offensive capabilities, hence why it was better for the less conspicuous tank to be the flag.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Coyote View Post
2: Why didn't the Tiger's crew cover for Miho when she went to rescue the drowning tank. They can't seriously be that helpless or incompetent to be unaware of their situation. "Oh gee, the Vice Commander just went swimming in a raging river. Oh look, there are enemy tank ahead of us. We should wait for Vice Commander to get back to tell us that we should be firing at them."
You might have seen a tank trying to cover the flag tank from the front. Split-second decisions are needed, especially when the tank in front of you suddenly falls off the cliff. Miho neglected her duties as tank commander to get her tank to safety before going on some rescue mission.
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Old 2012-11-28, 00:49   Link #1740
Znail
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
The turret is facing to the left of the tank. What we're seeing is the left side of the hull.
Yes, the left side of the hull, that keeps going to end at a front somewhere behind the wall. But as we don't actually see that front end so is there no way to tell that it's a front mounted turret. Actually, as the turret is at least as far from the front end as the wall so can't it be a front mounted turret like the Tiger (P).
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