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Old 2012-11-28, 00:51   Link #1741
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
Wait... looking for a tank inside the ship? How would one even get in there?

...And of course they get lost.

Wait... they found the PzIV's gun just sitting out there... being used as a clothesline? Why would that even be outside like that?

You all say that's a Tiger? How did it get belowdecks?
I'm certain that these kinds of things are commonplace on ships that have their own cliffs. * folds arms *

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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
There's just no satisfying some of you people. Flaws or no, they finally got a tank that's worthwhile, and y'all have to complain about how it isn't better.
I'm mostly interested in a Panther for variety's sake - Black Forest is already using Tigers (admittedly a different design). Anyways, I'm not one of those tank fans who keeps hoping that Ooarai trades up.

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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
Personally I still hope the volleyball team trades up for one of those two. Those girls deserve better than to be stuck in that thing of theirs.
I wonder how long the creators plan to stick with the Type 89.

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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
For what reason would you have to have the most faulty panzer from WW2? The transmission drive alone was enough to make it useless most of the time.
I'm aware that the early batch was hilariously bad, but the later models were quite usable. Sure they're not quite as reliable as the Tiger I, but they can fulfill their combat niche pretty well.

Really, the Tigers and Panthers were okay tanks, built with an emphasis for killing other tanks, but they all had major flaws. I wouldn't compare them directly for the most part because they were designed for different roles.

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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
It lost to Henschel in a competition. If Porsche was the only company making the Tiger, there was the possibility things would have gone on to complete the tank for full production. Think of the YF-23: It lost to the YF-22, but was still a possible form.
True. Although it should be noted that the Porsche failed largely because it was much worse mechanically.

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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Also, the Wiki articles tend to be too pro-German when it comes to tanks.
It should be noted that all Wiki articles should be taken with a grain of salt.

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Originally Posted by garbage View Post
funny how you're so fast on blaming Miho on that sequence when you yourself indicated you don't even know the situation involving that event, or if even Maho was there.
The situation is that Miho's tank element was trying to advance along a river and that she was in the command tank. Those are all the important facts of the tactical situation. The only part I'm not completely certain about is whether there were any other tanks in the unit, but I have about 90% confidence there weren't.

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Originally Posted by garbage View Post
Sure Miho's a tank commander of the flag tank to boot, but it's not like she's the Main commander. Scouting, Terrain studies, and Tactics/strategy involving the whole platoon would be the purview of the Main commander. And if you think them being in that place was poor judgement then that falls on Maho too.
Incorrect. A junior commander will call for a scout whenever the situation calls for it. Miho was the vice-captain, so it was her responsibility to at least suggest that course of action. Ideally, the same would go for any tank commanders.

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Originally Posted by garbage View Post
All in all there's not enough info about the event to lay blame on anyone, but Command responsibility puts it on Maho. But i don't think it's even that important for the plot or the show. In fact never in the Show was it ever hinted that Maho and her family ever blamed Miho for any tactical error, or even for the loss (she blames herself though). All their dialogues seems to indicate they were disappointed only because Miho ran away from Senshado and the family instead of accepting that loss and moving forward.
That's true, but I'm mostly concerned with the bits that aren't talked about in the show.

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Originally Posted by garbage View Post
And here you're even insulting Maho, what kind of Proper Commander from a well known martial family/school, with 9 straight winning record wouldn't even know how to properly assess terrain with a proper map. If it is as you say things on the map is "just a feature" for Maho. Then more so the blame would fall on her. what? she never learned how to properly read terrain maps? I sure would not want to be under a field commander like that.
There's tons of things that might not show up on the map. Including details like "this path is only wide enough for one tank at a time" or "the ground here is unstable enough that a tank can slip into the river" or "a Tiger I won't fit here". That's why it's important to have eyes on the ground.

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Originally Posted by garbage View Post
well sure what else would they talk about ,it is Girls und Panzer right, it would be strange if they would start talking about mahjong (nyahaha just thought about Saki) . Still,I threw away Science concerns to a bare minimum ever since episode 1 or else i would never enjoy this. Giant carriers? Girls fighting with live tank ammos all the while staying outside the hatch? Spectators with little children on the streets and sidewalks during a match?oh come on! well i still like the show
Most shows talk about all sorts of things that have nothing to do with their premise, the most common alternate topic being comedy hijinx. For example, Strike Witches devoted a whole episode to missing panties. It's still a bit surprising how focused Girls und Panzer is.

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Originally Posted by 00Coyote View Post
1: Why was the Tiger the flag tank? By flagging such a powerhouse, you limit what it can contribute to the battle. Miho's (I assume) decision to flag the 38t is a good strategy. The flag can hang back, without hurting the overall offensive capabilities of the team. Saunders did the same thing by not flagging the Firefly. Let the big guns do their thing, let the lesser tanks worry about being a flag.
Black Forest presumably has more than Tiger I, so they did basically the same thing Saunders did: gave their second-best tank the flag.

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Originally Posted by 00Coyote View Post
2: Why didn't the Tiger's crew cover for Miho when she went to rescue the drowning tank. They can't seriously be that helpless or incompetent to be unaware of their situation. "Oh gee, the Vice Commander just went swimming in a raging river. Oh look, there are enemy tank ahead of us. We should wait for Vice Commander to get back to tell us that we should be firing at them."
It's very difficult to see out of vision ports at the best of times, so an ambushed vehicle depends on an unbuttoned commander to tell them where the enemy is. Miho was too busy to tell her crew this information, so they might not have ever seen their attackers.

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Originally Posted by 00Coyote View Post
Black Forest walked into an ambush, with Pravada making excellent use of terrain and local conditions to aid in that ambush. It was a bad move by Maho/Miho to move their flag into such a limited space. Even if the other tank didn't go swimming the narrow path they were on would have severely limited any action by Black Forest.
The Black Forest tanks were caught in almost the worst imaginable kind of ambush. They couldn't maneuver or retreat, and the tanks in the rear can't contribute their firepower. It was hopeless as soon as Pravda sprang their trap.

If they had led with a single Pz. III, then it's the only unit risked, and their flag would have been safe.

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Originally Posted by whitecloud View Post
Anyway.... do you guys think the current lineup of tank against Pravda team is good?
Not at all . At least it's a bit better than the match up between the original Ooarai tanks and Saunders.

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Originally Posted by velvet nightmare View Post
not sure why everyone is debating tactics, philosophies and strategies that 'could have been'. all those points are moot, the bottom line is she got out of her tank.
I don't think anyone disputes that. However, Miho jumping into the river isn't the only thing that happened in that flashback.
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Old 2012-11-28, 00:55   Link #1742
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
You might have seen a tank trying to cover the flag tank from the front. Split-second decisions are needed, especially when the tank in front of you suddenly falls off the cliff. Miho neglected her duties as tank commander to get her tank to safety before going on some rescue mission.
How long can you hold your breath underwater? Especially when surprised, panicked, and trapped in a tight, confining, unstable environment? She left her tank because the game didn't matter when people were about to die.

People, the choice of movement along that path is not what the anime seems to be saying is in question. What's in contention is whether or not she should have chosen to lose the game in order to save her teamates' lives, and unless there is something very screwed up with the way you think, the answer is ABSOLUTELY.
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Old 2012-11-28, 00:56   Link #1743
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post

You might have seen a tank trying to cover the flag tank from the front. Split-second decisions are needed, especially when the tank in front of you suddenly falls off the cliff. Miho neglected her duties as tank commander to get her tank to safety before going on some rescue mission.
Its too fast... Let you be in the situation then. How will you react when such things happen?

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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
How long can you hold your breath underwater? Especially when surprised, panicked, and trapped in a tight, confining, unstable environment? She left her tank because the game didn't matter when people were about to die.

People, the choice of movement along that path is not what the anime seems to be saying is in question. What's in contention is whether or not she should have chosen to lose the game in order to save her teamates' lives, and unless there is something very screwed up with the way you think, the answer is ABSOLUTELY.
THIS!

10 consecutive wins or people's lives, seems like we have the same opinion that teammates' lives is more than winning the game.



Next week, is what I will call, Boss time!

Pravda vs Ooarai.... Wait a second... Isn't Pravda the one who defeated Black Forest last year?
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Old 2012-11-28, 01:04   Link #1744
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
What relevance does that have to Senshado or GuP?


You brought up real life issue first. I believe you are vastly exaggerating Panther's problem as there are so many people who argues for Panther being the best overall tank in World War 2, and they can back up that claim by all the kills Panther scored.
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Old 2012-11-28, 01:07   Link #1745
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Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
You brought up real life issue first.
Cost is not really an issue within the context of Senshado.



@ Miho Issue: She did not do her duty, simple as that. Saying "get to cover" to her tank then jumping off would have done quite a bit, but in her panic or whatever she neglected that simple duty. There is no excuse for that.
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Old 2012-11-28, 01:09   Link #1746
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Originally Posted by 00Coyote View Post
Black Forest walked into an ambush, with Pravada making excellent use of terrain and local conditions to aid in that ambush. It was a bad move by Maho/Miho to move their flag into such a limited space. Even if the other tank didn't go swimming the narrow path they were on would have severely limited any action by Black Forest.

For all we know there could had been foul play for that match... someone may have tipped off the Pravada for the possible routes to be taken by the Black Forest... it's possible that that route had been scouted earlier so Miho took it but because of leaked information then that accident occurred... well, it's just me having a conspiracy theory moments...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
You might have seen a tank trying to cover the flag tank from the front. Split-second decisions are needed, especially when the tank in front of you suddenly falls off the cliff. Miho neglected her duties as tank commander to get her tank to safety before going on some rescue mission.

Well, as far as I'm concerned, Miho did a split-second decision to save her comrades... it'll take only seconds for the tank to sink to the bottom of the sea for crying out loud... Miho did the right thing...
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Old 2012-11-28, 01:09   Link #1747
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well to be fair , Miho obviously made her choice there and then. Saving the drowning tank crew is also a split second decision.It's not as if that tank in the water would wait for her to finish her commands to her crew before sinking. Besides I don't really see much difference with her on or off the tank at that moment, aside from morale issues. They are clearly, already in a disadvantaged position only thing left would be to fire back, which the other tank crews could have done by themselves. if it's a matter of firing direction, another could have covered the commander position (looking out the turret) like the radio operator. Aside from that the other tank was already moving to front to cover them, but it was too late.

as been said before this is not war, this is Senshado, Miho thought then the life of her team mates is more important than another win. I definitely agree with Yukarin she made the right choice. Abandoning the tank is probably the only fault Miho did there, but it is still the right choice IMO.

IF this is WAR then it would be different since she has to take into account the other lives at stake, that of her tank crew and platoon crew if they got wiped out by her decision to leave the tank. This would be a court-martial offense.

oops lots of posts...
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Old 2012-11-28, 01:10   Link #1748
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Cost is not really an issue within the context of Senshado.



@ Miho Issue: She did not do her duty, simple as that. Saying "get to cover" to her tank then jumping off would have done quite a bit, but in her panic or whatever she neglected that simple duty. There is no excuse for that.
Wear and tear also is not an issue within context of Senshado. Most of the problem you mentioned were either something they manage to work around it in real combat situation, multiple times, or something that can be handled simply by replacing the parts after every Senshado game.

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Old 2012-11-28, 01:13   Link #1749
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
@ Miho Issue: She did not do her duty, simple as that. Saying "get to cover" to her tank then jumping off would have done quite a bit, but in her panic or whatever she neglected that simple duty. There is no excuse for that.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/game

I am glad I can never play a game with you, since you clearly consider losing a game to be a worse offense than letting people die.
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Old 2012-11-28, 01:25   Link #1750
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
Wear and tear also is not an issue within context of Senshado. Most of the problem you mentioned were either something they manage to work around it in real combat situation, multiple times, or something that can be handled simply by replacing the parts after every Senshado game.
I'm focusing on new parts breaking down easily in the first time it goes into battle. If there were multiple Panthers that could be covered (and I would recommend that), but given that we have a ragtag novince team from a school that seems to be in danger of being gone soon, I would rather have the more reliable Tiger than a Panther.



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Originally Posted by tarajis View Post
Well, as far as I'm concerned, Miho did a split-second decision to save her comrades... it'll take only seconds for the tank to sink to the bottom of the sea for crying out loud... Miho did the right thing...
Doing the right thing does not excuse Miho's negligence as commander. That is the point I'm making: Miho failed as a commander at the time, and no amount of "saving lives is doing the right thing" is going to clean that particular deed away.


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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/game

I am glad I can never play a game with you, since you clearly consider losing a game to be a worse offense than letting people die.
And you have reading comprehension problems if you think I put winning above lives when I clearly split between Miho the person and Miho the commander.

Furthermore, as someone who has been in life-threatening situations several times, I might have less tolerance for people in a position of responsibility for not doing their duty while also doing the right thing. To me those two go hand in hand.
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Old 2012-11-28, 01:32   Link #1751
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Originally Posted by Scarletknive View Post
Pravda vs Ooarai.... Wait a second... Isn't Pravda the one who defeated Black Forest last year?
Yup. They seem to be the class of the competition so far, although I'm sure Black Forest will be beefed up for the finale.

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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
@ Miho Issue: She did not do her duty, simple as that. Saying "get to cover" to her tank then jumping off would have done quite a bit, but in her panic or whatever she neglected that simple duty. There is no excuse for that.
As soon as that Pz. III fell into the river, Miho's "duty" was to rescue anyone that was in danger. At that point, the match should have been irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by tarajis View Post
For all we know there could had been foul play for that match... someone may have tipped off the Pravada for the possible routes to be taken by the Black Forest... it's possible that that route had been scouted earlier so Miho took it but because of leaked information then that accident occurred... well, it's just me having a conspiracy theory moments...
Given Yukari's stealth mission, that would be actually allowed in the tournament rules! It shouldn't matter since most maneuvers are determined after the start of the battle as adjustments to what happens.

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Originally Posted by garbage View Post
Besides I don't really see much difference with her on or off the tank at that moment, aside from morale issues. They are clearly, already in a disadvantaged position only thing left would be to fire back, which the other tank crews could have done by themselves. if it's a matter of firing direction, another could have covered the commander position (looking out the turret) like the radio operator. Aside from that the other tank was already moving to front to cover them, but it was too late.
There's very little time to do that. The only crew members in the turret are the loader and the gunner. If one of them were to look out the cupola, then the gun can't be fired. I don't think that there's a way for the radio operator to move to commander's position unless the loader and gunner move out of the way first. And then there's also all the stress of being ambushed to begin with and their commander abandoning them.

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IF this is WAR then it would be different since she has to take into account the other lives at stake, that of her tank crew and platoon crew if they got wiped out by her decision to leave the tank. This would be a court-martial offense.
If it was war, the proper assumption would be that everyone inside the Pz. III was already dead so there would be no point in trying to save them.

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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Doing the right thing does not excuse Miho's negligence as commander. That is the point I'm making: Miho failed as a commander at the time, and no amount of "saving lives is doing the right thing" is going to clean that particular deed away.
Miho ceases to be a commander as soon as someone's life is in danger.
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Old 2012-11-28, 01:33   Link #1752
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post





Doing the right thing does not excuse Miho's negligence as commander. That is the point I'm making: Miho failed as a commander at the time, and no amount of "saving lives is doing the right thing" is going to clean that particular deed away.
Did she indeed? Did she indeed fail as a Senshadou commander? This isn't war where people die as a matter of fact. You could say if she just abandoned her comrades to die she would have failed far worse as a commander. It's the same even in the military. Heads roll when people die in peace time training due to poor command decisions


I'm speaking in the context of non-war situations. Of which Senshadou is one
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Old 2012-11-28, 01:35   Link #1753
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Furthermore, as someone who has been in life-threatening situations several times, I might have less tolerance for people in a position of responsibility for not doing their duty while also doing the right thing. To me those two go hand in hand.
The problem is that you're judging this duty to have much higher significance than it really does. This is not a military command. There are no lives at stake if she leaves her tank, no one will suffer, there is no actual harm done. In that situation saving lives overrides trivial matters like playing a game. As such, by leaving the tank to save those people, Miho WAS doing her duty. Dropping things that don't matter in order to save people is the duty of anyone in that situation. She did not fail her duty: she fulfilled it, the way everyone there should have. If anyone failed, if anyone deserves condemnation, it would be the ones who stayed in their tanks and played a game while people were dying nearby.
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Old 2012-11-28, 01:45   Link #1754
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I believe I'm sensing a great difference between myself and the majority of the posters here. I ultimately see no difference in Miho's duty to at least say "retreat" when she was in the position to be saying so and her duty in rescuing her kameradinen. Those two are NOT exclusive, and as someone who has been brought up in a military household, to think those are exclusive is the basic denial of what the Way is supposed to be. There are times when one cannot do their duty for the right thing, but those are exceptions to the standard, and Miho's situation was not where she had to forsake her duty for the right thing.

If we operate under the idea that Senshado is a martial art, then the idea that this is all just a game is in itself a corruption of what Senshado is. A true martial art puts duty on the same level as honor, and Miho not doing what she should be doing when she was able to do so was neglecting her duty. Shiho might have been extreme in her interpretation (or perhaps that is what the Nishizumi-ryu is like in general), but the basics of what she says is correct: One must advance, and this means one must do one's duty.
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Old 2012-11-28, 01:45   Link #1755
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Did she indeed? Did she indeed fail as a Senshadou commander? This isn't war where people die as a matter of fact. You could say if she just abandoned her comrades to die she would have failed far worse as a commander. It's the same even in the military. Heads roll when people die in peace time training due to poor command decisions


I'm speaking in the context of non-war situations. Of which Senshadou is one

Well said my friend... as had been pointed out many times before, this is Senshadou and this is not war... Miho had the clear mind when she made that decision... it's clear to her that this is just competition and people's lives weighs more... if that was real war then it's another story...

@Sumeragi
Then Kay's decision to take the same number of tanks to go after Oarai failed her as commander because she just toss away her overwhelming advantage in number and firepower and not to mention winning the battle... I'd say Kay just wants to play fair in the Senshadou...
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Old 2012-11-28, 01:46   Link #1756
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Doing the right thing does not excuse Miho's negligence as commander. That is the point I'm making: Miho failed as a commander at the time, and no amount of "saving lives is doing the right thing" is going to clean that particular deed away.
She failed her duty when she advanced on that ridge. After that? She did what she had to do, which was prioritize lives over a mere game.

Not that it'd really change anything, but they were fish in a barrel anyway. Victory wasn't exactly on the table anymore.
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Old 2012-11-28, 01:50   Link #1757
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@Sumeragi
Then Kay's decision to take the same number of tanks to go after Oarai failed her as commander because she just toss away her overwhelming advantage in number and firepower and not to mention winning the battle... I'd say Kay just wants to play fair in the Senshadou...
Kay did not neglect her duty as commander because she was neutralizing the unfair advantage that was given to her by her subordinate. Her decision was to balance the wrong with the right, which would be in line with what any true martial art would do. That in itself is following Senshado, and thus Kay did her duty as commander.
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Old 2012-11-28, 01:52   Link #1758
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ok...ok...let's chill a bit....

how about if we switch to a lighter topic....

ehem.... among all ooarai girl, if you were given a chance to meet IRL to go and play or chat or whatever for a day (longer maybe) (3 choice) who would you pick...?

for me...no.1 yukari (of course!!), no.2 miho and no.3 hana

who do you pick...?
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Old 2012-11-28, 01:53   Link #1759
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
The problem is that you're judging this duty to have much higher significance than it really does. This is not a military command. There are no lives at stake if she leaves her tank, no one will suffer, there is no actual harm done. In that situation saving lives overrides trivial matters like playing a game. As such, by leaving the tank to save those people, Miho WAS doing her duty. Dropping things that don't matter in order to save people is the duty of anyone in that situation. She did not fail her duty: she fulfilled it, the way everyone there should have. If anyone failed, if anyone deserves condemnation, it would be the ones who stayed in their tanks and played a game while people were dying nearby.
Well said. It's quite possible, even probable, that no one else saw what happened to the Pz. III after it slid off the path. Miho was the only one unbuttoned, and the Pravda tanks were still far away. The TV crew caught it, but Miho's Tiger I was knocked out right away, so there wasn't a lot of time to stop the competition.

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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
If we operate under the idea that Senshado is a martial art, then the idea that this is all just a game is in itself a corruption of what Senshado is. A true martial art puts duty on the same level as honor, and Miho not doing what she should be doing when she was able to do so was neglecting her duty. Shiho might have been extreme in her interpretation (or perhaps that is what the Nishizumi-ryu is like in general), but the basics of what she says is correct: One must advance, and this means one must do one's duty.
What?
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Old 2012-11-28, 01:53   Link #1760
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I'm focusing on new parts breaking down easily in the first time it goes into battle. If there were multiple Panthers that could be covered (and I would recommend that), but given that we have a ragtag novince team from a school that seems to be in danger of being gone soon, I would rather have the more reliable Tiger than a Panther.


The later Panthers did NOT break down that easily as you claimed. If it did , the following stat could not be possible.

Quote:
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerk...sd-kfz-171.htm

According to US Army Ground Forces statistics, destruction of a single Panther was achieved after destruction of 5 M4 Shermans or some 9 T-34s.

(1) It takes long time to destroy 9 t-34s. If Panther broke down as fast as you suggest, no way such a stat could have been accumulated.
(2) Now, what were the tanks Oorai fought against, and what tanks are they fighting next?

Now, brushing aside what I still view as exaggeration of Panther's fault, would Oorai be better served with Tiger I compared to Panther? I would say yes, but not because of reliability issue. Oorai's mechanics were able to fix the tanks that were in ruins for many years in a day, so I would say the mechanics are top notch. These girls have won 2 rounds, thus you can't consider them inexperienced any more. As I kept saying, any problem due to wear and tear isn't a issue since they can refit the tank every day with new parts, which is likely best parts ever made for the tanks.

The real reason I think Tiger I would help Oorai just a little more in most situation is because it is superior to Panther in 2 areas Oorai lacks the most : Armor and Fire power. With Tiger I, you can now use much more aggressive offensive tactics, where you would be thinking about how to charge into the battle instead of how to withdraw to new defensive position.

Still, I think you have to consider the tactical style. Since I believe Panther's steering, transmission, and Final Drive will endure through one whole Senshado match, Panther would let you use your mobile defensive tactics much better than Tiger. If you care not about protecting your teammates, for Oorai, fighting a mobile engagements in short burst is much more preferable, since their tanks just can't last long once your opponent T-34s or Tigers ( Kuromori High ) starts shooting at you in group. Your best chance is to either isolate one or two tanks to achieve local superiority and run away when other tanks come to the scene, or somehow surprise them and get a few shots off at them and then run away before your opponent can focus their fire on one of your tanks. For these hit and run tactics, you need speed and Panther is faster and also have longer operational range compared to Tiger I.
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