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Old 2012-11-24, 15:20   Link #31241
chronotrig
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I'm not sure I understand what Beatrice's reason would be for all this though...
If we follow the Higurashi-logic that gets brought up in EP5, Rosa actually suffers the least of pretty much any character.

After all, she's usually killed before anything sad or terrifying even happens. In EP1 and 4, it's before any murders occur, and given how tired she always is on the first night, she might not even have been fully awake. In EP3, she's convinced that none of the murders are real, and then gets killed instantly (or so it would seem) and presumably before Maria dies.

Even in EP2, when she lives until the end, she actually ends up as the Ushiromiya head and with Maria still alive until the 9th Twilight. Not really a happy ending, but no worse than what anyone else suffered, I think.


We also need to get around that EP5 red: Her (Beatrice's) goal is not to make someone experience fear. And it isn't to have revenge on someone either.
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Old 2012-11-25, 20:01   Link #31242
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
I'm not sure I understand what Beatrice's reason would be for all this though...
If we follow the Higurashi-logic that gets brought up in EP5, Rosa actually suffers the least of pretty much any character.

After all, she's usually killed before anything sad or terrifying even happens. In EP1 and 4, it's before any murders occur, and given how tired she always is on the first night, she might not even have been fully awake. In EP3, she's convinced that none of the murders are real, and then gets killed instantly (or so it would seem) and presumably before Maria dies.

Even in EP2, when she lives until the end, she actually ends up as the Ushiromiya head and with Maria still alive until the 9th Twilight. Not really a happy ending, but no worse than what anyone else suffered, I think.


We also need to get around that EP5 red: Her (Beatrice's) goal is not to make someone experience fear. And it isn't to have revenge on someone either.
That red refers to MetaBeatrice.
PieceYasu might have different ideas. Actually PieceYasu tormented Natsuhi in Ep 5 quite a bit and it's hard to think she had no idea she was making Natsuhi suffer.
Although in a fashion the thing applies to pieceYasu as well as her main goal wasn't to scare people but to have PieceBattler remember his promise.
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Old 2012-11-26, 00:36   Link #31243
chronotrig
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That red refers to MetaBeatrice.
PieceYasu might have different ideas. Actually PieceYasu tormented Natsuhi in Ep 5 quite a bit and it's hard to think she had no idea she was making Natsuhi suffer.
Although in a fashion the thing applies to pieceYasu as well as her main goal wasn't to scare people but to have PieceBattler remember his promise.
That red might refer to Meta-Beatrice, but it isn't obvious considering the rest of that section. At least, Battler was clearly talking about gameboard motives from start to finish, and dropping lines of red about whether meta-Beatrice was after the gold seems a bit of a time waster and a pointless trick on Virgilia's part.


As for EP5, how does making Natsuhi suffer tie into making Battler remember his promise? Battler showing kindness towards the underdog is a pretty essential part of his character (and might be why Yasu liked him in the first place), so bullying Natsuhi would probably just have the effect of pissing Battler off.
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Old 2012-11-26, 10:59   Link #31244
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If Piece-Beatrice has different motives than Meta-Beatrice, then it's basically pointless for Meta-Beatrice to have any motives at all. We have to at least presume that what each wanted was essentially the same. So for what Virgilia suggested to have any meaning whatsoever, we want to at least try to connect the two.

And yeah, what chronotrig said: There's no reason for Meta-Beatrice to be motivated by something that doesn't exist for her. She really can't take revenge, her goal was clearly not to make Battler feel fear, and the gold is meaningless to a being on her level. To say "Beatrice wasn't motivated by money" only makes sense for Piece-Beatrice; what would Meta-Beatrice have ever wanted with money to begin with?
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Old 2012-11-26, 23:50   Link #31245
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Because Meta-cookies are expensive?
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Old 2012-11-28, 02:37   Link #31246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
That red might refer to Meta-Beatrice, but it isn't obvious considering the rest of that section. At least, Battler was clearly talking about gameboard motives from start to finish, and dropping lines of red about whether meta-Beatrice was after the gold seems a bit of a time waster and a pointless trick on Virgilia's part.
I caught up with the manga and something that is more in the realms of semantics crossed my mind.

"This is something that can be said about all the games."
"The goal is not to strike fear into someone."
"And it is also not about taking revenge on somebody"
"Beato does not commit murder with the intention of pleasure."


This might be overthinking it, but of course the goal of Yasu/Beato's game is none of these. The goal is to make Battler remember about their time together. That does not mean though, that revenge or fear cannot happen within the game.
She might not have started the game with the aim to take revenge, but that would not mean that certain events wouldn't drive her to act in a way that might be considered revenge. Just as much as her game might make people afraid, while it is not her initial goal.
It would be completely in line with the fact that she does not murder for pleasure.
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Old 2012-11-28, 08:42   Link #31247
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That's a very good point, actually. I mean, it's hard to imagine that some of those scenarios weren't set up with the intent of frightening people, even if that wasn't the primary goal; in fact, fear actually helps the primary goal in that it makes people less likely to behave rationally and cautiously. So I wouldn't take those reds as meaning that Yasu never did any of those things, just that they weren't the objective.
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Old 2012-11-28, 09:17   Link #31248
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Means to an end. The thing is, money and pleasure are ends unto themselves. Causing fear is a method and an obvious intended and necessary side-effect of ritual murders, even if they're faked. Revenge is an end, but in many ways revenge can be incidental to a person's actual end. After all, the plan apparently was to kill people with whom there was no reason to take revenge just as much as anyone who deserved it. It's very difficult to believe revenge would be a result of every death (what possible revenge could anyone take against Maria?).
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Old 2012-11-28, 10:57   Link #31249
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Causing fear is a method and an obvious intended and necessary side-effect of ritual murders, even if they're faked.
Not necessarily if they are faked or at least the culprit wants people to believe they are faked. Okay, fear would be a possible side-effect, as it can also be connected with thrill, but kyoufu, the word Ryukishi used, implies terror and that did not seem to have been Yasu's goal even at her worst. Actually, she wanted people to keep their calm and solve the epitaph; fear and terror would be a distraction in that venture.

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It's very difficult to believe revenge would be a result of every death (what possible revenge could anyone take against Maria?).
I don't believe that either.
What I actually wanted to aim at was, that every murder that could be considered a murder out of revenge was not what the game had been created for. It was not the goal of the game to have Natsuhi survive to the very end in EP1...even worse she was apparently supposed to be discarded as a victim very early, only saved by the rules the culprit created.
The fact that the final result of the game is random to a great deal proves in itself that revenge is not the primary motive, BECAUSE there is at least one innocent victim: Maria.
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Old 2012-11-28, 13:09   Link #31250
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Not necessarily if they are faked or at least the culprit wants people to believe they are faked. Okay, fear would be a possible side-effect, as it can also be connected with thrill, but kyoufu, the word Ryukishi used, implies terror and that did not seem to have been Yasu's goal even at her worst. Actually, she wanted people to keep their calm and solve the epitaph; fear and terror would be a distraction in that venture.
And yet she's presenting them with their relatives with their faces sanded off. Even if it's fake, and some of them know it's fake, at least one person does not know this. To suggest the expected reaction to this is "Well shit, I better buckle down and solve that word puzzle while some face-mangling lunatic is running around" seems a bit curious at best. Surely she would've had to expect that people would be afraid, and that some would be genuinely shaken to the point of maybe not being able to focus on the epitaph, but only on survival? That sounds like terror to me.

That wasn't the goal, but one has to expect it to happen. If you want to convince people you're serious about them applying themselves to the epitaph without actually terrorizing them into fight or flight mode, kidnapping would work far better than murder, and a clean murder would work far better than a brutal one. "I have spirited Maria away with my magic. If you ever want to see her again, I suggest you solve the epitaph" is more likely to garner cooperation than "Oh by the way did you solve that epitaph? I know you're still a little torn up about the whole driving stakes into the foreheads of your parents, but focus on what's really important here!"
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Old 2012-11-28, 15:00   Link #31251
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Well, that wouldn't have been much Mystery to solve, and would hardly help Battler remember his sin.

...Not that killing everyone around him would normally make him nostalgic about the good old days with Shannon, but.. At least it's closer.
And I think they need to be brutal as long as she can't hide their wounds with a stake. You know, so they don't see that the victim was shot or.. not wounded at all.
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Old 2012-11-28, 15:52   Link #31252
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Well, that wouldn't have been much Mystery to solve, and would hardly help Battler remember his sin.

...Not that killing everyone around him would normally make him nostalgic about the good old days with Shannon, but.. At least it's closer.
And I think they need to be brutal as long as she can't hide their wounds with a stake. You know, so they don't see that the victim was shot or.. not wounded at all.
The issue is that if the goal is to create a fake mystery (perhaps) and have everyone focus on the epitaph... why aren't the accomplices focusing on the epitaph? If Rosa is the accomplice in Turn, why isn't she insisting everybody bunker down and solve the epitaph? If the goal is solely to make Battler remember, why aren't they doing things that might spark his memory? It's like she has absolutely no control over what people do, and/or no actual interest in her own stated objective.

Look at Alliance. The hell was the point of all that? Look at it from Battler's point of view: He's received an array of terrifying phone calls and locked two people in a shed. He just found George dead and has every reason to believe everyone else is also dead. And then Beatrice is like "Hey, this jog your memory any?"

...what? I sure as hell hope there was a book Battler and Shannon read that goes exactly like this one because otherwise I fail to see how the hell any of that was of any use whatsoever to helping Battler remember anything at all. People often have trouble remembering things when they think they're dealing with a serial killer.
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Old 2012-11-28, 15:56   Link #31253
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
That red might refer to Meta-Beatrice, but it isn't obvious considering the rest of that section. At least, Battler was clearly talking about gameboard motives from start to finish, and dropping lines of red about whether meta-Beatrice was after the gold seems a bit of a time waster and a pointless trick on Virgilia's part.
Well, the red seems specific to me as to talk about Beato she used 'this child'.
Or was the 'this' added just by the translation?
And it wouldn't be the first time Battler is tricked by red because he refers to something and who uses red refers to something else.
Battler is also strickly connecting the gameboard to himself as it looks like that if PieceBattler were to be the culprit, he would be the culprit as well.

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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
As for EP5, how does making Natsuhi suffer tie into making Battler remember his promise? Battler showing kindness towards the underdog is a pretty essential part of his character (and might be why Yasu liked him in the first place), so bullying Natsuhi would probably just have the effect of pissing Battler off.
PieceYasu is willing to kill people (Battler's most loved people I might add) in order to make Battler remember his promise. Making them suffer seems a... much tamer thing.
So the possibilities are:
- PieceYasu has a different goal
- PieceYasu is pursuing two different goals (getting revenge on others and having Battler remember)
- PieceYasu completely fails to understand that what she's doing will bring Battler far from her goal
- PieceYasu thinks this will bring Battler to remember his promise even through there will be consequences (Battler hating her, for example) but she doesn't care about them (for example because she plans to kill herself anyway)

If MetaBeato and PieceYasu have the same goal the way they go at it is pretty different and seems to point to an insane Yasu but not to an insane Beato.

And if Yasu is insane then she might fail to realize what she's doing will cause people to experience fear and might even feel pleasure not in the killing per se but in the idea she's playing a game with Battler.

In fact, insanity is the best excuse for Yasu because really, if one is stuck on an insland with a murderer on the loose who's killing the person he loves the most the last thing that's going to come to his mind is a promise he made 6 years ago to a girl who's apparently about to willingly and happily marry his cousin. Expecially when among the victims there are the friends and apparent love interest of said girl... as well as that girl.

Realy, if someone can find a theory for PieceYasu that doesn't involve insanity but just having Battler remember his promise and yet keep her as the killer I'll love to hear it.
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Old 2012-11-28, 17:32   Link #31254
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To be fair, EP7 was rather vague about this. To me, it seemed more like Battler's arrival sparked Yasu's "I don't give a shit anymore" stage with regards to the lives of the Ushiromiya family (I think this is before the 'Golden Nocturne' scene). It felt more like she wanted to see if he actually remembered instead of trying to get him to remember. And then something about being understood. Vague.
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Old 2012-11-28, 17:43   Link #31255
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To be fair, EP7 was rather vague about this. To me, it seemed more like Battler's arrival sparked Yasu's "I don't give a shit anymore" stage with regards to the lives of the Ushiromiya family (I think this is before the 'Golden Nocturne' scene). It felt more like she wanted to see if he actually remembered instead of trying to get him to remember. And then something about being understood. Vague.
Wouldn't it be better to solicit his recollection before you murder everybody? Certainly it's arguable that hey, he had lots of time on the 4th to talk to Shannon, but does he really? Usually other people are around. His promise is distinctly personal. Maybe he wouldn't want to bring it up, especially in front of George or the family. Especially in Alliance, he's barely had any time at all to get with Shannon and just talk. If she was expecting him to remember, it sure seems like she jumped the gun.

If Beatrice were expressing some kind of twisted "There, now everyone's dead and we can be alone. Got something to tell me?" attitude, I suppose that'd be one thing, but she doesn't seem to see the victims as inconvenient obstacles given that she goes rather out of her way to set up the mysteries and deaths.

Basically, why isn't she taking any steps to isolate Battler? There's no way for him to indicate he remembers the promise until he's given the opportunity to do so in a more intimate and private setting. She can find the time to go see George and shit, but she can't arrange fifteen minutes going over old times in private with Battler? How is that fair?
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Old 2012-11-28, 20:22   Link #31256
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Wouldn't it be better to solicit his recollection before you murder everybody? Certainly it's arguable that hey, he had lots of time on the 4th to talk to Shannon, but does he really? Usually other people are around. His promise is distinctly personal. Maybe he wouldn't want to bring it up, especially in front of George or the family. Especially in Alliance, he's barely had any time at all to get with Shannon and just talk. If she was expecting him to remember, it sure seems like she jumped the gun.

If Beatrice were expressing some kind of twisted "There, now everyone's dead and we can be alone. Got something to tell me?" attitude, I suppose that'd be one thing, but she doesn't seem to see the victims as inconvenient obstacles given that she goes rather out of her way to set up the mysteries and deaths.

Basically, why isn't she taking any steps to isolate Battler? There's no way for him to indicate he remembers the promise until he's given the opportunity to do so in a more intimate and private setting. She can find the time to go see George and shit, but she can't arrange fifteen minutes going over old times in private with Battler? How is that fair?
Yep, that's what's illogic. It seems Umineko tries to wave it off with a 'it's an obscure love letter from a shy and clumsy person' but it songs more like a letter from a sociopath.
The only Ep in with Battler had a fair chance before murders started is Ep 3, in which she mentioned something close to Battler's promise and he stated something along the line of I don't remember nor I wanted to remember all the stupid things I said which might have hurt her even if the setting was completely wrong to have him say something different.

Interesting enough though Battler will admit he liked her back then... although he won't do it out loud.

In Ep 4 instead the whole thing is completely unfair. Of all the things Battler can come up when a stranger who calls herself the witch who's murdering everyone will ask him about his sin, his promise is likely the last.
Not only it's unlikely in the mess he's in he'll be able to remember it, but it's even more unlikely he'll connect the dots and figure Shannon is causing all that after he'd learnt George and Shannon are a couple.

Ep 1, 2 & 5 doesn't really seem to aim to have him remember anything.
That's true in Ep 1 Shannon had to change her plan (maybe if she didn't she would try to have him remember?) but, as soon as she did it it's game over. She can't expect Battler would cry more for her when his parents are dead in front of him and surely he won't mention it in front of George.
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Old 2012-11-28, 21:48   Link #31257
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Well, the red seems specific to me as to talk about Beato she used 'this child'.
Or was the 'this' added just by the translation?
And it wouldn't be the first time Battler is tricked by red because he refers to something and who uses red refers to something else.
Battler is also strickly connecting the gameboard to himself as it looks like that if PieceBattler were to be the culprit, he would be the culprit as well.
Well, I think Renall covered this. Virgilia and Battler are talking about the person in the room with them, yet the subject of their conversation is clearly someone on the gameboard. Unless there's an extremely strong connection between the two characters, this conversation is pretty much meaningless for both Battler and Virgilia.

I agree that it's possible for Virgilia to trick him in that way, but what would be the point? Battler is earnestly trying to solve her disciple's puzzle. Why butt in unasked and get in his way?

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In fact, insanity is the best excuse for Yasu because really, if one is stuck on an insland with a murderer on the loose who's killing the person he loves the most the last thing that's going to come to his mind is a promise he made 6 years ago to a girl who's apparently about to willingly and happily marry his cousin. Expecially when among the victims there are the friends and apparent love interest of said girl... as well as that girl.

Realy, if someone can find a theory for PieceYasu that doesn't involve insanity but just having Battler remember his promise and yet keep her as the killer I'll love to hear it.
Except, if Yasu is so crazy that she misunderstands Battler so much, I don't think she'd be capable of getting so many accomplices, willing or unwilling. And given her physical weakness, the more potential accomplices we eliminate, the smarter Yasu has to be to succeed in tricking everyone else. Nearly all of her tricks are psychological, not physical.

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This might be overthinking it, but of course the goal of Yasu/Beato's game is none of these. The goal is to make Battler remember about their time together. That does not mean though, that revenge or fear cannot happen within the game.
She might not have started the game with the aim to take revenge, but that would not mean that certain events wouldn't drive her to act in a way that might be considered revenge. Just as much as her game might make people afraid, while it is not her initial goal.
It would be completely in line with the fact that she does not murder for pleasure.
I might be misunderstanding Yasu here, but it seems to me that making Battler remember his promise is more of a means, not an end in itself.

For example, I could understand if Yasu was just writing a story or doing a fake murder. By showing Battler that, she indirectly tells him that she's not satisfied being the quiet girl George likes, despite their approaching engagement. If Battler remembers and decides he still wants to fulfill his promise, then both Battler and George have the same claim on Yasu, so to speak. George and Battler will have to prove themselves, and whoever wins, Yasu will be a lot more confident that she ended up with the right person. And of course, if Battler doesn't decide to get involved with his cousin's girlfriend (which is probably much more likely, in Yasu's eyes), then she'll finally have some closure from that promise. She was already willing to marry George before Battler came back, and now she'll be able to do so wholeheartedly, without any lingering regrets.


However, as soon as Yasu murders her first person, everything goes in the trash. If the truth about her never comes out, there was no point in doing this anyway. If it does, neither George nor Battler will want to have anything to do with her, and if they do turn out to be okay with dating someone who murdered their family, why the hell would Yasu want them?

Think about it. They ignored the deaths of those closest to them to marry the true heir of the family fortune. Any guesses as to what happens next?
So what is it that Yasu hopes to gain by making Battler remember?
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Old 2012-11-29, 08:26   Link #31258
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Except, if Yasu is so crazy that she misunderstands Battler so much, I don't think she'd be capable of getting so many accomplices, willing or unwilling.
I think we have to differentiate between several possibilities of her psychosis. It's not like she is stark raving mad, she is just a severely cracked individual. That is the tragedy of most culprits in mysteries. They are not completely insane, which would absolve them from culpability, they fail to understand that what they are doing is not bettering their situation. After the first murder they simply try to reclaim control over their own reality, which keeps slipping away, and so they have to continue down the pass they started.

Even misunderstanding Battler is not actually a sign of a variant of insanity that disables her to function in society. It's just that one part of her psyche that is cracked, while in other areas she might function perfectly well.

Quote:
I might be misunderstanding Yasu here, but it seems to me that making Battler remember his promise is more of a means, not an end in itself.
But Beatrice said it several times, she created this game to play it with Ushiromiya Battler, the grandson of Ushiromiya Kinzo, and she continues that game until either side declares defeat or dies.

Thus the goal of the game is not even that much to make Battler remember but, as you implied, to reach a decision on her life. The goal is a decision on the trial of love.

I think her desperation was so far that she did not think straight anymore. That does not mean she went insane, the obstacles simply seemed so strong that she gave up all hope on overcoming them.
Jessica might possibly only want someone in order to not be alone.
George did not show any signs of progress until the plan was already in motion (he did not make a move on Okinawa).
Then there is the aspect of her apparent genital disposition.
Battler comes back which confuses her. Is it about the promise or not?
She is the family head and shoulders an obligation she does not want.
She knows how unable the family is of handling itself.

And somehow she adopted Kinzo's worldview of "only when gambling at the highest odds can you gain a proper result."
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Old 2012-11-29, 10:30   Link #31259
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I think we have to differentiate between several possibilities of her psychosis. It's not like she is stark raving mad, she is just a severely cracked individual. That is the tragedy of most culprits in mysteries. They are not completely insane, which would absolve them from culpability, they fail to understand that what they are doing is not bettering their situation. After the first murder they simply try to reclaim control over their own reality, which keeps slipping away, and so they have to continue down the pass they started.

Even misunderstanding Battler is not actually a sign of a variant of insanity that disables her to function in society. It's just that one part of her psyche that is cracked, while in other areas she might function perfectly well.
While true, the problem with Beatrice as portrayed as a culprit on the boards is that most of what she does doesn't seem to clearly work toward any particular end at all. The Love Duel implies she's trying to come to a decision. But murdering anyone does not help this decision be made. In fact, it makes all three of the decisions impossible, leaving suicide as the only answer.

Now you can say "Well, she is suicidal on top of being homicidal," but then it doesn't make a whole lot of sense why she'd kill anyone. There's no reason to kill people if you just have to choose the direction of your life. There's no ability to choose the direction of your life if you kill people. It's a seemingly infinite loop of negative reinforcement suggesting to Beatrice that she ought not harm anyone, as otherwise she will never get an outcome that she is accepting of.

And if we cut out the decision-making process, we seem to be left with a motiveless series of murders. It just doesn't make any sense, even for a partially insane individual. It's such a significant departure from rationality that it just doesn't appear that anyone would arrive at the decision to behave in that manner. Particularly so when doing so necessarily precludes all scenarios the culprit actually desires.

About the only explanation I can think of to get around this is to say "She was so frustrated by her inability to reach a decision on three separate but acceptable potential outcomes that she just threw up her hands and decided to destroy herself and everyone around her out of sheer rage." I could see even a basically sane person becoming upset like this if they were indecisive enough... probably not enough to kill random uninvolved people, mind you, but at least upset enough to make a poor impulse decision that cuts them off from any of their desired choices. But then that essentially means the motive of the culprit was extreme indecision. As interesting motives go, that isn't exactly one of them.
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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2012-11-29, 17:26   Link #31260
goldendust
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I just reread all of Umineko again.

Just wondering did Erika/Bernkastel work out that Shannon and Kannon were the same person in the 5th game when all of the time people were gathered in the parlor? The red truth said that everyone on the island in the parlor rather then listing the names.

Also in the 6th game, Erika made a comment after Batter jokingly asked if would be disappointing if nobody died, then Erika said "it would be troublesome if our numbers have not thinned out by tomorrow morning" to which Shannon had a reacton. Was Eriak prehaps addressing Shannon instead of Battler with that comment.

Also in 6th game, Erika has no interest in finding the culprit but rather wanting to trap Battler in a logic error.


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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
While true, the problem with Beatrice as portrayed as a culprit on the boards is that most of what she does doesn't seem to clearly work toward any particular end at all. The Love Duel implies she's trying to come to a decision. But murdering anyone does not help this decision be made. In fact, it makes all three of the decisions impossible, leaving suicide as the only answer.

Now you can say "Well, she is suicidal on top of being homicidal," but then it doesn't make a whole lot of sense why she'd kill anyone. There's no reason to kill people if you just have to choose the direction of your life. There's no ability to choose the direction of your life if you kill people. It's a seemingly infinite loop of negative reinforcement suggesting to Beatrice that she ought not harm anyone, as otherwise she will never get an outcome that she is accepting of.

And if we cut out the decision-making process, we seem to be left with a motiveless series of murders. It just doesn't make any sense, even for a partially insane individual. It's such a significant departure from rationality that it just doesn't appear that anyone would arrive at the decision to behave in that manner. Particularly so when doing so necessarily precludes all scenarios the culprit actually desires.

About the only explanation I can think of to get around this is to say "She was so frustrated by her inability to reach a decision on three separate but acceptable potential outcomes that she just threw up her hands and decided to destroy herself and everyone around her out of sheer rage." I could see even a basically sane person becoming upset like this if they were indecisive enough... probably not enough to kill random uninvolved people, mind you, but at least upset enough to make a poor impulse decision that cuts them off from any of their desired choices. But then that essentially means the motive of the culprit was extreme indecision. As interesting motives go, that isn't exactly one of them.

Didn't Kannon/Shannon say that their duel was a mere farce before Shannon shot him. I do not think that love duel was suppose represent coming to a decision as it did not really matter one way or another who won. It is not like that when Shannon won that Beatrice was unable to receive love from battler.

I figured that Beatrice's motivation in terms of the game based on the magical theme of the story was to create a catbox where everyone is happy.

Basically the catbox was created with the bomb that leaves nobody alive or any evidence. After all in the end of every game, it is mentioned that they will reach the golden land.

As for the murders,wanting Batter to rmember and someone solving the epitaph. I figured it was the risk part of her magic. Magic cannot come true without risk. In fact I would imagine that Beatrice would have wanted to lose.

Last edited by goldendust; 2012-11-30 at 04:48.
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