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Old 2012-11-28, 14:53   Link #41
marvelB
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Originally Posted by janipani View Post
^ So you are saying that beating Vergo breathless and then returning the heart to Law was out of question... ridiculous!

You people just don't wanna admit that Law is bigger than Smoker.


Dude, you're still missing the point. Just what part of "If Law dies, Smoker's as good as dead too" don't you get? And again: SMOKER COULD HAVE RISKED DAMAGING LAW'S HEART IF HE WENT ALL-OUT.
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Old 2012-11-28, 14:59   Link #42
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But remember that he needs Law's power in order to get back his heart. It wouldn't do much good if his heart ended up being lost forever due to Law being killed now, would it? Not to mention he could risk damaging Law's heart if he got serious while the organ was still in Vergo's hands....
Yeah but Law didn't need physically touch him to get the heart back. If Smoker was stronger he could of knocked him out which he was not capable of pulling off. Killing somebody isn't going to change how you get the heart unless he's gonna attack it. Which he already knew that he had it.
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Old 2012-11-28, 15:02   Link #43
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I think you people are just getting into your own conclusions that serve your own likings rather than the real rank of characters. And I agree with Kona.

How many of you have noticed that Law also sliced SAD? Or at least it looks like it a bit.
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Last edited by janipani; 2012-11-28 at 15:17.
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Old 2012-11-28, 15:18   Link #44
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Originally Posted by janipani View Post
I think you people are just getting into your own conclusions that serve your own likings rather than the real rank of characters. And I agree with Kona.

Maybe that would be true if I were arguing rank here (which I never was)? All I've been saying is that Smoker jobbed to Vergo so Law can reclaim his heart. It's got nothing at all to do with who's stronger than who (a subject don't really like to debate anyway, FYI).


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Yeah but Law didn't need physically touch him to get the heart back. If Smoker was stronger he could of knocked him out which he was not capable of pulling off. Killing somebody isn't going to change how you get the heart unless he's gonna attack it. Which he already knew that he had it.

So Smoker didn't knock him out. So what? Whether he could or couldn't isn't the point. It's just that he kept Vergo occupied so Law could get back the heart. Remember how just a few chapters back we saw that Vergo was quick enough to snatch the heart away from Law when he previously tried to reclaim it with his power? THAT'S why a distraction was necessary. I shouldn't have to explain this, but if people are going to keep thinking that this is a question of strength....
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Old 2012-11-28, 15:24   Link #45
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If that is all what you're really saying and that you don't deny Smoker being out matched, then we have nothing argue about.

But Laws super slice attack that got both SAD and Vergo was impressive! I only wonder if Zoro can do the same?
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Old 2012-11-28, 15:27   Link #46
Best_name_ever
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With every current era, a new era is born

What a great way to end this chapter and start at the same time a plot full of conflict and chaos. Well done Oda Eiichiro as always.

Also regarding on the matter on which Yonko (Emperor) Law is interested in taking down, its been speculated until now that it can either be Big Mom or Kaido or Blackbeard.

Here are guess and intuition on this (although keep in mind it's only some feasible arguments and assumptions, nothing more)

Reasons for Big Mom according to some because:

- Luffy has declared war against her (both of them have beef with each other)
- It seems that Oda teased us a little with the introduction of Pekoms and Tamago
on Chapter 651. Particularly with Pekoms since he is a lion with some sort of zoan turtle devil fruit power, in which he could have consumed a SMILE devil fruit (artificial fruit) hence the lion appearance while having an authentic devil fruit power (though that has yet to be confirmed or explained for that matter)
- Big Mom was show at last panel of Chapter 690 along with some of the supernovas, leading some to believe that Big Mom may be in fact Doflamingo's business partner for this matter.

Reasons for being Kaido according to some because:

- He has to be personally introduced to the story
- Its the perfect opportunity to introduce him into the story
- Appears to have an appeal or keen interest in power or control or both for that matter
- Some people forgot to point this out but might bear a resemblance to Ex-shichibukia Moria since Moria was keenly interested in producing an immortal army and that if he had one, wouldn't have lost to Kaido according to Moria if you look back at the thriller bark arc. Although its a very weak argument, but from what i know, there are no coincidences with Oda Eiichiro, since he is very skilled as a shounen writer dropping clues for us and at the same time foreshadowing a future development into the story

Reasons for being Blackbeard according to some because:

- Blackbeard and his crew are power hunting for the most power devil fruit users (although if you ask me, that's completely different than to producing a massive army for your benefit because power hunting to me means that they are seeking for new powers or strength, satisfying there satiable greed only for themselves.

- Might be the type of guy who interested in his power with a big army considering how greedy and ambitious Blackbeard is but who knows

All in all, there isn't substantial proof as it could be anyone, what do guys think.

(By the way, I'm new to this forum, so be nice with me

With a current era comes a new era.

What a way to end a chapter and start a new plot with lots of conflict and chaos.

Well done Oda Eiichiro

Last edited by james0246; 2012-11-28 at 15:58.
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Old 2012-11-28, 15:32   Link #47
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Gotta love how some people only look at the results and not the circumstances that led to those results. This in turn, leads to skewed/incorrect power perceptions.

marvelB is not arguing about who's stronger than who. He's just saying that the circumstances didn't exactly permit Smoker to fight as he normally would, which essentially held him back from his full potential.
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Old 2012-11-28, 15:39   Link #48
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And I was saying that his full potential hadn't change a thing. Outcome would had been Smoker down and then Laws turn since no heart in his possession. Smoker's only choice was to give Law a chance to fight and win.

I am not looking only the results, since there are clear logic why Smoker prioritized Law's heart.
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Old 2012-11-28, 15:49   Link #49
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First of all, you're ranking characters based on fights that had circumstances to them that inhibited certain characters from exhibiting their full strength/potential. That's already faulty logic on your part. And then you're saying that the outcome between Smoker and Vergo would have been the exact same with no substantiation to your claim. Prove what you're saying. But then again, you can't because we haven't seen Sanji and Smoker fight at their best yet.
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Old 2012-11-28, 16:05   Link #50
Best_name_ever
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People speculate it can be either Big Mom or Kaido or Blackbeard as one of the emperor Traflagar Law wants to take down (most likely being Big Mom or Kaido)

Here are the assumtions for Big Mom as a target according to some: (although this is all speculation and assumptions; nothing more)

- Luffy has declared war against her
- With the intro to Pekoms and Tamago back in Fishman Island, Oda has teased into suspecting that Pekoms might be a possible character who consumed a SMILE fruit (artificial devil fruit) in addition to his natural turtle devil fruit power according to some (but this has YET to be confirmed or proven for that matter
- Big Mom was seen in the page on chapter 690, leading some to guess that she might be Doflamingo's potential business partner

Assumptions for being Kaido instead: (although this is all speculation and assumptions; nothing more)

- Has not been personally introduced yet
- Is the perfect opportunity to introduce him into the story
- Seems to have a keen interest in power and expanding his power further
- Also, might have a resemblance to Former shichibukia Gecko Moria since Moria was interested in obtaining an immortal army since he wouldn't have lost to Kaido according to Moria himself (he states this during the thriller bark arc). Surprisingly no one pointed this out but then again its probably a weak point or argument to make. Coincidence, maybe or maybe not

Assumptions for being Blackbeard according to some: (although this is all speculation and assumptions; nothing more)

- He and his crew are power hunting for the most powerful devil fruit users (however if you ask me, that's completely different than to producing a massive SMILE zoan devil fruit army. Sure he wants power and control, but I think Blackbeard and his crew have interest in obtaining power in their own terms if you catch my drift and not rely on anyone for that matter. Also Blackbeard and his crew maybe after the devil fruits users for themselves only and no one else. Also to add another point, they maybe after original or natural devil fruit powers, although I don't know how one will be able to tell the difference but we will find out soon enough I guess.)
- Might have more crew members now in post-time skip in comparison to pre-time skip but who knows

All in all anything is possible since Oda likes to surprise us and drop hints and clues for us to guess and debate. What do you guys say.

(By the way, I'm new here so treat me nice
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Old 2012-11-28, 16:11   Link #51
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
First of all, you're ranking characters based on fights that had circumstances to them that inhibited certain characters from exhibiting their full strength/potential. That's already faulty logic on your part. And then you're saying that the outcome between Smoker and Vergo would have been the exact same with no substantiation to your claim. Prove what you're saying. But then again, you can't because we haven't seen Sanji and Smoker fight at their best yet.
Sorry to butt in the conversation but to add it might be possible that due to the agreement Smoker made with Law, might be part of the plan. In addition to this, Smoker also needs to recover his heart since Vergo took it away from Law when he imprisoned them along with Luffy, Robin, and Tashigi. Also plot wise, it seems Law had score to settle with Vergo due to their past.
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Old 2012-11-28, 16:13   Link #52
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Yet again... I was criticizing these people making assumptions that Smoker lost only because he was saving Laws heart and saying that Smoker would have probably owned Vergo as fast as Law if serious. That is faulty thinking.

And as person who has suggested here that common Anime practice Rock-paper-scissors is making ranking multidimensional , I am not taking your critique very well, since I am quite character neutral anyway.

Sanji has little to none advantage towards Smoker, so it is safe to assume that Vergo can be used as indicator of their strength towards each others.

There is no sense for Smoker to save Law's heart if he would be able to beat Vergo easily. And if we assume that he would have beat Vergo after hard long battle, that would still apply to the strategy but it is far fetched. I want to remind you that Vergo wasn't going to do anything with Laws heart other than weaken Law. Smoker needed Law to join back in fight.

Only reason why you argue about this is that you are actually making your rankings of your likings and you don't fool me in this one.
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Old 2012-11-28, 16:16   Link #53
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by Best_name_ever View Post
Sorry to butt in the conversation but to add it might be possible that due to the agreement Smoker made with Law, might be part of the plan. In addition to this, Smoker also needs to recover his heart since Vergo took it away from Law when he imprisoned them along with Luffy, Robin, and Tashigi. Also plot wise, it seems Law had score to settle with Vergo due to their past.
First off, welcome to AnimeSuki forums . You're free to join in any conversation, so no need to apologize. And these are other good points you've brought up that show it's not so clear, cut, and dry, that Smoker is inferior to Vergo.
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Old 2012-11-28, 16:20   Link #54
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when did the Samurai learned that his son is a dragon?
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Old 2012-11-28, 16:23   Link #55
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Yet again... I was criticizing these people making assumptions that Smoker lost only because he was saving Laws heart and saying that Smoker would have probably owned Vergo as fast as Law if serious. That is faulty thinking.

And as person who has suggested here that common Anime practice Rock-paper-scissors is making ranking multidimensional , I am not taking your critique very well, since I am quite character neutral anyway.

Sanji has little to none advantage towards Smoker, so it is safe to assume that Vergo can be used as indicator of their strength towards each others.

There is no sense for Smoker to save Law's heart if he would be able to beat Vergo easily. And if we assume that he would have beat Vergo after hard long battle, that would still apply to the strategy but it is far fetched. I want to remind you that Vergo wasn't going to do anything with Laws heart other than weaken Law. Smoker needed Law to join back in fight.

Only reason why you argue about this is that you are actually making your rankings of your likings and you don't fool me in this one.
Nah, read our posts again (and correctly this time). No one ever said Smoker would have owned Vergo as fast as Law did under normal circumstances. Try again.

Sanji fought Vergo to a stalemate despite the fact that his body had already been injured beforehand due to Nami. That fight was also inconclusive, as Shinokuni made its way into the complex forcing them to break up the fight and retreat. From all of that, what made you discern that Sanji is inferior to Vergo, and by extension Smoker as well?

You're quite presumptuous about people's posts, I see. This has nothing to do with which character(s) I like more. I'm simply regurgitating what the manga showed and stated.
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Old 2012-11-28, 16:34   Link #56
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So Smoker didn't knock him out. So what? Whether he could or couldn't isn't the point. It's just that he kept Vergo occupied so Law could get back the heart. Remember how just a few chapters back we saw that Vergo was quick enough to snatch the heart away from Law when he previously tried to reclaim it with his power? THAT'S why a distraction was necessary. I shouldn't have to explain this, but if people are going to keep thinking that this is a question of strength....
Being unconscious from a hit in the face with a Jutte is a better chance of risking your life and "losing" on purpose like you're trying to say.

It is a question of strength because if Law was stronger he would have no problem getting his heart back and not needing help.
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Old 2012-11-28, 16:44   Link #57
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Vergo isn't out for the count yet - he can still get his body back together. Law basically put everything he had into that hit, including his DF - it was an uncontrolled powerful slash (damn impressive, though!).

Still, it shows that Law's haki is at least at the same level as Vergo, which is pretty awesome.
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Old 2012-11-28, 16:45   Link #58
janipani
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Nah, read our posts again (and correctly this time). No one ever said Smoker would have owned Vergo as fast as Law did under normal circumstances. Try again.
And I read:

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
^Smoker lost, but that was because he basically jobbed to Vergo intentionally. For all we know, he could have taken care of him as quickly as Law did if he weren't holding back....
And no... I still get in the very same conclusion.

Perhaps I just don't get the sarcasm or hidden meanings in this text that reverses the literal info?
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Old 2012-11-28, 16:53   Link #59
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^

could have != would have

We don't know what would have happened.
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Old 2012-11-28, 16:54   Link #60
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What i find funny is people seem to be underestimated the supernovas or how much stronger they could have gotten .
Look at it this way Doflamingo was worth 340,000,000 before he became a Warlord for Law it was 440,000,000 .
These guys are no longer rookies , you underestimated them and it will bite you in the ass.
Can wait to see how much stronger the other supernovas have gotten .
I also hope next arc that we finally get to see the SH or at least the monster trio uses there full power or at least most of it .
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