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Old 2012-11-29, 22:44   Link #1861
aldw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
And Communist Chinese =/= Nationalist Chinese. Except from Japan's point of view, its military planners didn't care.

Hitler certainly didn't. In his Mein Kampf, the terms Bolsheviks, Slavs, Jews & Russians were often used interchangeably.
It matters in the political organizational context, rather than a national context, and the differences were telling, just like in Spain. As for Hitler's interchangeable use of terms, his own private thoughts were much more of a Palpatinesque political animal than the stuff written in Mein Kampf.



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Again, because the subsequent defeats did not force Japan into a corner such as what the two atomic bombs did, the whole incident generally became a pad-themselves-in-the-back-moment thus preventing the little known conflict (even to Japan) that occurred in the 30s to be part of Japan's collective psyche.
The defeats were enough to eliminate the 'Strike North Faction" of the Japanese High command from any further influence in Japanese strategic action, and Operation August Storm broke the Japanese deadlock for surrender as much as the atomic bombs were, which even Japanese authors made reference to.


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Indeed, but the book told me what most people already know. Germany simply had not the resources for a prolonged war against the Soviet Union, and the fast-approaching winter due to Hitler's delay of the invasion did not help. Hitler himself did not imagine a prolonged war against Stalin. His famous claim regarding the Soviet Union after witnessing the Winter War stated that Russia was like a rotten door, and a good kick would cause it to crumble.

Even Russian historians agree that, if Germany had marched all the way to Moscow, conquered the city, even if total victory could not be achieved, a negotiated peace in Germany's favor was a distinct possibility.

After learning the speed of Germany's advancement, Stalin too, contemplated the idea of a negotiated peace.

Thus I have to disagree w/the notion that Germany had no possibility of achieving victory purely due to its economic shortcomings.
There was no real chance for German victory even if Moscow fell and the Soviets made a negotiated peace, because the resource stretch the Germans were facing wouldn't go away as any conquered territory would need a lot of investment to extract useful materiel for their (still) continuing conflict with Britain and later the US. Unless the British give up the end result is nukes on Berlin instead of Japan.

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Except Hitler's chance for a negotiated peace even after the disaster of Stalingrad was extinguished after he committed to Operation Citadel. He should have listened to, you guessed it, Guderian.
- Tak
The only real chance for a negotiated settlement on the Eastern Front was just before Operation Typhoon, because once that failed Stalin would not capitulate and Lend-Lease could make up enough of a difference to sustain Soviet ground forces even if Stalingrad fell.
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Old 2012-11-29, 23:18   Link #1862
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Folks... Girls und Panzer thread, not military history thread.
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Old 2012-11-29, 23:34   Link #1863
Liddo-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
We are in WW2 talk again. couple of points I want to make

(1) Soviet victory in Manchuria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Khasan)

The Japanese military, while taking the lesson seriously, was willing to engage with the Soviets once more, with disastrous results, in the more extensive Battle of Khalkhin Gol (Nomonhan) in the Soviet-Japanese Border War of 1939. The result of this engagement was the total defeat of the Japanese Sixth Army by the Soviets.
I think the japanese used some Type-89 in the Battle of Khalkin Gol.
Though I don't remember how those fared against russian tanks of that time.
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Old 2012-11-29, 23:40   Link #1864
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Clearly the Japanese were at the disadvantage just in number of tanks used.... 500 Soviet tanks versus 135 Japanese tanks.
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Old 2012-11-30, 00:07   Link #1865
4Tran
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Tak, if you're interested in more World War II discussion, shoot me a PM and we'll continue there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
I think the japanese used some Type-89 in the Battle of Khalkin Gol.
Though I don't remember how those fared against russian tanks of that time.
There wasn't very many tank vs. tank clashes at Kahlkin Gol, but the results were predictable. Only Japanese Type 95s, with their 37mm guns, had much chance of penetrating Soviet armor, and they weren't very good at long range. The Soviets had BT-5 and BT-7 tanks which could knock out any Japanese tank from over 1000m away. Type 89s weren't entirely useless against Soviet infantry and artillery, but they couldn't contribute to the fight when facing off against armor.

I think Type 89s saw action during August Storm in 1945 as well, and that must have been an utter disaster.

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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Clearly the Japanese were at the disadvantage just in number of tanks used.... 500 Soviet tanks versus 135 Japanese tanks.
The numbers didn't make very much difference since Zhukov preferred to deploy his tanks against Japanese infantry instead. The quality of vehicles made more of a difference: the Soviet BTs were almost obsolete by 1939, and the Japanese tanks were still far worse.
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Old 2012-11-30, 00:10   Link #1866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
.... and the Japanese tanks were still far worse.
Now that's still a disadvantage.

Yeah, Japanese infantry outnumbers the Soviets... But we are in a tank thread.
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Old 2012-11-30, 00:20   Link #1867
Tak
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Tak, if you're interested in more World War II discussion, shoot me a PM and we'll continue there.
Oooooh, I love it when you talk dirty....

Sure, we can continue our discussions in PM

- Tak
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Old 2012-11-30, 00:25   Link #1868
LeoXiao
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In 1945, the USSR conquered Manchuria, an area the size of Germany and France combined, in about a week. Sure, they had a 5:1 advantage in numbers of tanks and planes, but its just shows how crappy the Kantogun was that they failed to even delay the enemy despite having a million men. In one place, the Japanese defended an obvious mountain pass, but were surprised when the Soviets avoided the obstacle by attacking through the mountains themselves.

On the other hand, in 1941 the Russians had a 5:1 advantage in tanks and other weapons as well, but they still got beaten pretty badly for the first few months of the German onslaught.
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Old 2012-11-30, 01:27   Link #1869
Chiaki_chan
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Old 2012-11-30, 02:11   Link #1870
Dragonkid11
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Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
On the other hand, in 1941 the Russians had a 5:1 advantage in tanks and other weapons as well, but they still got beaten pretty badly for the first few months of the German onslaught.
What's the use of tanks and guns when you are out of ammo?
That's why Russia got beaten badly during the first part of the war...
Then industrial power ensued
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Old 2012-11-30, 02:40   Link #1871
Theo
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Originally Posted by Chiaki_chan View Post
*snip*
Seems like the show wasted an opportunity for fanart bait and figure profit. We don't know anything about her other than her costume and that she lost. At least a minute of the actual battle could've been shown during the credits, just enough time for some animated gestures or something quotable.
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Old 2012-11-30, 02:47   Link #1872
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
In 1945, the USSR conquered Manchuria, an area the size of Germany and France combined, in about a week. Sure, they had a 5:1 advantage in numbers of tanks and planes, but its just shows how crappy the Kantogun was that they failed to even delay the enemy despite having a million men. In one place, the Japanese defended an obvious mountain pass, but were surprised when the Soviets avoided the obstacle by attacking through the mountains themselves.
You forgot that all the crack units and equipment were transferred to the Pacific to fight the US, basically leaving only raw recruits acting as a light infantry counter-insurgency force and not a force capable of fighting against armor. For that matter, the Kantogun only had around 600,000, with the rest being independent units (with at least 200,000 being in Korea).



Doggy Yukari:

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Old 2012-11-30, 02:48   Link #1873
Chiaki_chan
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Spoiler for Darjeeling-sama *v*:
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Old 2012-11-30, 03:11   Link #1874
The Based
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Originally Posted by Theo View Post
Seems like the show wasted an opportunity for fanart bait and figure profit. We don't know anything about her other than her costume and that she lost. At least a minute of the actual battle could've been shown during the credits, just enough time for some animated gestures or something quotable.
There's always a chance that one of the OVAs will show it.
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Old 2012-11-30, 03:20   Link #1875
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
You forgot that all the crack units and equipment were transferred to the Pacific to fight the US, basically leaving only raw recruits acting as a light infantry counter-insurgency force and not a force capable of fighting against armor. For that matter, the Kantogun only had around 600,000, with the rest being independent units (with at least 200,000 being in Korea).
Funny, one source I read in my earlier years spoke of a "Kwangtung crack army". Though admittedly the book was called "The Russian version of the 2nd World War", complete with terms like "Hitlerite", "imperialists", etc. being used prolifically.
I heard all the good arty the Kantogun had was sent back to Japan or something. That would certainly mess up any defense.
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Old 2012-11-30, 03:27   Link #1876
PzIVf3
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If only those staff made her longer screen time.
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Old 2012-11-30, 03:47   Link #1877
Ithekro
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I am somewhat surprised this did not show up earlier:

NicoNico
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Old 2012-11-30, 05:55   Link #1878
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Old 2012-11-30, 06:08   Link #1879
ultimate_noob
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Spoiler for Merry Chrismas:
bigger (click)
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Old 2012-11-30, 06:58   Link #1880
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