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Old 2012-11-30, 06:05   Link #61
Tom Bombadil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
The map is wrong? My linguistics professor used that same one...
It is like saying Spanish is the language of Texas since there are many Mexicans. You never know, that might be correct.

Your linguistic professor most likely don't know enough about the geography and history of those areas. Anyway, those regions are inside China for a reason.
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Old 2012-11-30, 06:26   Link #62
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
Your linguistic professor most likely don't know enough about the geography and history of those areas. Anyway, those regions are inside China for a reason.
Occupation. It's pretty simple, isn't it, especially the invasions of Uyghurstan and Tibet after the PRC victroy.
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Old 2012-11-30, 06:53   Link #63
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
It is like saying Spanish is the language of Texas since there are many Mexicans. You never know, that might be correct.
In some parts, perhaps. A majority of Texans still speak English as their primary language. If English were to be diminished to the point of only being spoken by a minority as its 1st language, then yeah the area would get the Spanish color. The same holds true for the Chinese map.

Quote:
Your linguistic professor most likely doesn't know enough about the geography and history of those areas. Anyway, those regions are inside China for a reason.
My linguistics professor is Chinese and writes research papers on this kind of stuff, I'm pretty sure she knows what she's talking about. Moreover, the map does not care about historical possession or whatnot, so that's irrelevant here.

The map is still mostly correct.
It's called an "ethnolinguistic map" because it documents both the main ethnic groups of China as well as generalized linguistic categories. The language of the Uighur people is a Turkic, non-Chinese language, so it gets its own color. Now, you might say, there are also Han Chinese who speak Mandarin living there. Not historically. Tibet was Tibetan and whenever it was under Chinese control there were not many Chinese there to make the local language anything other than Tibetan. There is still at least a plurality of Tibetan speakers in Tibet. That is where the language is spoken, why should the map not reflect this?

Where is the map incorrect? There are not enough categories. There should be six more colors south of the Yangzi river because down there they speak dialects that cannot be understood by a fluent Mandarin speaker, because they are in fact different languages. But then again if it lumps the Tibetan and Burmese languages into one color I don't see why it shouldn't do the same with the Chinese ones. The map is right after all.

I think what you're getting riled up because you're seeing China presented as not one pure group, which in your mind might legitimatize separation and thus weaken the country. But there should be nothing to fear since, after all, Cantonese and Mandarin speakers have been able to see themselves as equally Chinese for 2000 years since their land got totally incorporated into China. I'm sure the Tibetans would be willing over time to do the same, provided they continue to see "Chineseness" as something positive...
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Old 2012-11-30, 08:21   Link #64
Tom Bombadil
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Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
In some parts, perhaps. A majority of Texans still speak English as their primary language. If English were to be diminished to the point of only being spoken by a minority as its 1st language, then yeah the area would get the Spanish color. The same holds true for the Chinese map.


My linguistics professor is Chinese and writes research papers on this kind of stuff, I'm pretty sure she knows what she's talking about. Moreover, the map does not care about historical possession or whatnot, so that's irrelevant here.

The map is still mostly correct.
It's called an "ethnolinguistic map" because it documents both the main ethnic groups of China as well as generalized linguistic categories. The language of the Uighur people is a Turkic, non-Chinese language, so it gets its own color. Now, you might say, there are also Han Chinese who speak Mandarin living there. Not historically. Tibet was Tibetan and whenever it was under Chinese control there were not many Chinese there to make the local language anything other than Tibetan. There is still at least a plurality of Tibetan speakers in Tibet. That is where the language is spoken, why should the map not reflect this?

Where is the map incorrect? There are not enough categories. There should be six more colors south of the Yangzi river because down there they speak dialects that cannot be understood by a fluent Mandarin speaker, because they are in fact different languages. But then again if it lumps the Tibetan and Burmese languages into one color I don't see why it shouldn't do the same with the Chinese ones. The map is right after all.

I think what you're getting riled up because you're seeing China presented as not one pure group, which in your mind might legitimatize separation and thus weaken the country. But there should be nothing to fear since, after all, Cantonese and Mandarin speakers have been able to see themselves as equally Chinese for 2000 years since their land got totally incorporated into China. I'm sure the Tibetans would be willing over time to do the same, provided they continue to see "Chineseness" as something positive...
Bahh, if I didn't made myself clear enough with the Texas example, just check the ethnic decomposition on wikipedia. There are about 80% Han Chinese in inner Mongolia (aka more than the percentage of Whites in Texas), and many those who are classified as Mongol are bilingual. Can you tell the difference between 南疆 (i.e., southern Xinjiang) and 北疆 (northern Xinjiang)? Know anything about the history and geography about them? What are their ethnic compositions?
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Old 2012-11-30, 08:46   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
Bahh, if I didn't made myself clear enough with the Texas example, just check the ethnic decomposition on wikipedia. There are about 80% Han Chinese in inner Mongolia (aka more than the percentage of Whites in Texas), and many those who are classified as Mongol are bilingual. Can you tell the difference between 南疆 (i.e., southern Xinjiang) and 北疆 (northern Xinjiang)? Know anything about the history and geography about them? What are their ethnic compositions?
Here's a hint: Look at that map, and you will see some circles and triangles indicating the presence of Han and Hui Chinese. Now look at a population density map and it is clear to see that the Han Chinese live in the most densely-populated parts of Nei Menggu. This does not mean that they are a majority throughout the physical land area however. I'm pretty sure the nomads with their yurts on the steppe are Mongolian; even if they are a minority within their province, they take up more of the land.
Basically, most of the province is physically inhabited by Mongol-speakers, with a few concentrations of Han Chinese in various areas that give the province 80% of its populace. That's why the province is mostly the Mongol color but there are circles to mark the Han populations. I suppose a similar situation exists in Xinjiang.
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Old 2012-11-30, 09:11   Link #66
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I wish ethnic "cleansing" through deliberate moving of people into a region was also a crime against humanity. That would solve quite a few disputes as to legitimacy.
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Old 2012-11-30, 09:51   Link #67
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^While I agree, I'm against reversing the already established demographic situation.

Spoiler for and frankly...:


No matter how much a dickish move this is, we really shouldn't lease it out to the populace. How many of people on this thread know how did the deportation of Germans from Czech and Poland proceed ? It wasn't nice.
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Old 2012-11-30, 10:54   Link #68
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I don't really believe in retroactive application (no, we're not going to be changing things to what it was in the past), but it is a fact that the process is still ongoing particularly in Uyghurstan, and this I consider a crime against humanity where the central government is basically engaging in cultural genocide in the name of "progress", transplanting loyal ethnic groups using incentives and bulldozing the lifehood of the people already living there. Ever wondered why there is such high ethnic/class tension in the region compared to other parts of PRC?
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Old 2012-11-30, 11:20   Link #69
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I wish ethnic "cleansing" through deliberate moving of people into a region was also a crime against humanity. That would solve quite a few disputes as to legitimacy.
It isn't?


Anyway, in that vein, Poland would shrink a lot and the bulk of Prussia reincorporated back into Germany...
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Old 2012-11-30, 12:42   Link #70
LeoXiao
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What Sume meant was that in the case of China, they have so many Han Chinese available for migration that they can just flood an area with people and assimilate the local population, and not be accused of ethnic cleansing. What Poland (the Soviet Union, actually) did was not the same, that really was ethnic cleansing of local Germans.

I think that while it's pretty despicable of the PRC to actively undermine Uighur attempts to preserve their heritage, if Han Chinese have an incentive to move they should be able to. Eastern China is overpopulated after all. And the subject of heritage, I wonder if their language at is actually in danger or not. I know some Uighurs and they say they learn Mandarin as a second language and use Uighur for local dealings. Since they have a slight majority, I do not think their culture or tongue is in immediate threat.
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Old 2012-11-30, 12:51   Link #71
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My main problem is with entities like the Xinjiang Production and Construction Corps, Bingtuan for short. It has gone from its original principle of "not competing for benefits with the local people" to actively planting settlers and giving economic benefits to only those settlers at the expense of Uyghurs. It's one thing for the Hans to have an economic reason for moving, but quite another when the state is deliberately undermining the livelihood of the local people in order to consolidate control. There's a big difference in how things are done in Uyghurstan compared to other regions such as Tibet or Inner Mongolia.
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Old 2012-11-30, 13:41   Link #72
Tom Bombadil
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Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
Here's a hint: Look at that map, and you will see some circles and triangles indicating the presence of Han and Hui Chinese. Now look at a population density map and it is clear to see that the Han Chinese live in the most densely-populated parts of Nei Menggu. This does not mean that they are a majority throughout the physical land area however. I'm pretty sure the nomads with their yurts on the steppe are Mongolian; even if they are a minority within their province, they take up more of the land.
Basically, most of the province is physically inhabited by Mongol-speakers, with a few concentrations of Han Chinese in various areas that give the province 80% of its populace. That's why the province is mostly the Mongol color but there are circles to mark the Han populations. I suppose a similar situation exists in Xinjiang.
Seriously? You know, on wikipedia, there is not only the data for the whole Autonomous Region, there is also demographics data for each of its sub-administrative bodies. Have you checked those?

Clearly, you want to believe in some feel-good reasoning instead of hard data.
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Old 2012-11-30, 13:59   Link #73
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
Clearly, you want to believe in some feel-good reasoning instead of hard data.
There is no such thing as "hard data" when the data is an aggregate. How do we know whether there is a high concentration of the majority in only specific locations with the rest being settled by the minorities? Take the Xilingol League for example: Most of the 2/3 majority Han live in Xilinhot, Erenhot, Duolun County, and Taibus Banner, with the rest being settled mainly by the other ethnic groups.


We really should get back to the original topic, though.
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Old 2012-11-30, 14:16   Link #74
LeoXiao
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So you're saying the Han Chinese are living out on the plains with the native Mongols? I doubt it. Where there are cities, there will be a majority of Han people, but no migrant is going to move to Inner Mongolia so he can live the traditional nomad lifestyle, no, he's probably got a job in an urban area.

Look, the ethnolinguistic map doesn't say there aren't any Han there; it clearly marks their presence with the circles. If you can't be bothered to read maps posted on the same page, forget wikipedia!

Quote:
My main problem is with entities like the Xinjiang Production and Construction Corps, Bingtuan for short. It has gone from its original principle of "not competing for benefits with the local people" to actively planting settlers and giving economic benefits to only those settlers at the expense of Uyghurs. It's one thing for the Hans to have an economic reason for moving, but quite another when the state is deliberately undermining the livelihood of the local people in order to consolidate control. There's a big difference in how things are done in Uyghurstan compared to other regions such as Tibet or Inner Mongolia.
Now that's pretty messed up. One thing that sticks in my memory was that massacre that happened some years ago which had like 200 deaths. The government apparently shut off the internet completely for a while in the area.
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Old 2012-11-30, 14:18   Link #75
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The original topic is boring. It's pretty much exactly the same as the Senkaku one. If we made a thread for every infraction the PRC has committed the server would probably crash.
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Old 2012-11-30, 15:12   Link #76
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Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
The original topic is boring. It's pretty much exactly the same as the Senkaku one. If we made a thread for every infraction the PRC has committed the server would probably crash.
Senkaku potentially didn't getting involve the US.

This is pretty much poking the US if they'll do something about if China does something this stupid.

While China has ambitions of the Asia Pacific as its sphere of influence or think it is , it isn't.

They don't have the same projection power as the US with carrier groups and overseas bases.

The US values the freedom of navigation even if they would resort to force. It has happened before during the Iran-Iraq War.
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Old 2012-11-30, 15:42   Link #77
Tom Bombadil
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Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
So you're saying the Han Chinese are living out on the plains with the native Mongols? I doubt it. Where there are cities, there will be a majority of Han people, but no migrant is going to move to Inner Mongolia so he can live the traditional nomad lifestyle, no, he's probably got a job in an urban area.
Let me answer you for the last time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayannur

Quote:
Bayannur or Bayannao'er is a prefecture-level city in western Inner Mongolia. Until December 1, 2003, the area was called the Bayannur league.

Bayannur city has an area of 65,788 kmē. The name of the city in Mongolian means "Rich Lake". At the 2010 census, the total population of Bayannur is up to 1,669,915, while the city proper has 520,300 inhabitants
It has Han population of 93.9%.
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Old 2012-11-30, 15:54   Link #78
Sumeragi
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And? That's just one place. What about the aforementioned Xilingol League? Or are you conveniently ignoring data that contradicts your flawed view of the world, thus showing the hypocrisy of your "hard data" theory?

Really Tom Bombadil, stop acting like some of the mindless nationalists. You're better than that.
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Old 2012-11-30, 16:01   Link #79
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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
We could divide them by language.

how old is the map, it not be wrong so much as out of Date.

looking at google ("Language map of China") quite few of those map shows much more penetration of Han language in Xinjiang then this one.
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Old 2012-11-30, 19:59   Link #80
LeoXiao
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Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
Let me answer you for the last time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayannur

It has Han population of 93.9%.
Again, let us look first at the area in question: Linhe, Wuyuan, and Hangjin have between then about 1.1 million people, (about 2/3s of the population) but only make up about 10% of the land area. Funnily enough, this particular fact is represented on the ethnolinguistic map, which shows not one but three circles in the aforementioned place.

Not enough? Let's look at Baotou, which has 2.6 million with 94% Han, though the latter statistic is from 2000, when it had 2.3 million. The metropolitan areas have 1.8 million between them, with the northern part of the prefecture sparsely populated. These Han areas are represented by circles too.

Still, you haven't answered my question: Where do the Han live? When they go to Inner Mongolia to work, do they go off to the countryside, herding and doing whatever it is the locals do on the plains? Or do they live in towns and cities to do industrial and service work? If that is the case, wouldn't the bulk of the land still be ethnolinguistically Mongolian? Although I will be willing to concede that the map is probably somewhat old.
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