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Old 2012-11-30, 11:40   Link #101
Kona
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Originally Posted by Libros View Post
Really? because to me, it just looks like Buggy's powers are in a way, half Logia, half paramecia. He can split his body when/where/ how he wants, making him a paramecia. But he can also avoid slashes and attacks like that the same way a Logia could. Also, even if Haki were to be used, it'd still mean the attack would have to land to be Super effective. And finally, which Haki exactly would be super effective Vs Buggy? Armament or Observation? (King's Haki is a given since Buggy is fairly weak willed)
Buggy weak willed? You know that Shanks and him were equals when they were with Roger. What's going to be the difference now that we know for sure that Buggy is going to be using confirmed Haki over the two year skip?
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Old 2012-11-30, 12:29   Link #102
articuzwolf
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Originally Posted by Libros View Post
Really? because to me, it just looks like Buggy's powers are in a way, half Logia, half paramecia. He can split his body when/where/ how he wants, making him a paramecia. But he can also avoid slashes and attacks like that the same way a Logia could.
your definitions of Logia and Paramecia are messed up

Logia doesn't only mean that you can't be slashed or attacked, they just can change their body into substance of their DF power hence avoid/nullify damage caused by an attack (without Haki)

Paramecia can only apply the properties of their DF power to their body (like how Luffy's body being rubber-like) or produce it (like how Mr 3 and Magellan can produce Candle and Poison respectively without being able to change their body into candle or poison)

and Buggy can be attacked just like how Gomu-Gomu Bazooka hit him real hard during his confrontation with Luffy in the earlier arc of OP
I'm sure he can be shot as well...he can only avoid getting slashed (or taking damage when he got slashed) since it was his DF properties as long as no Haki involved
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Old 2012-11-30, 12:55   Link #103
Whitemoon648
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Great chapter.

In terms of the fight, imo there are a few possibilities,

1) Vergo basically underestimated Law's ability/strength and was overpowered by his ability. He was probably like i will charge at him and beat him and won't (need to) dodge his attack. He paid the price by getting cut. If this is the case, then maybe if he didn't underestimate law the fight would have been longer and the winner unknown.

2) Maybe Vergo isn't/wasn't all that. I think in previous chapter discussion other also mentioned this too. Most trusted doesn't have to mean strongest.

3) Law is currently very strong ( back to 1 kinda). Vergo is still at the top in terms of strength but Law is just much stronger. If that's the case i wouldn't be surprised if the current Law was stronger than Luffy at this time at least. I don't think Luffy can use Haki defense on spot ( or on his whole body) defensively ( or at least in an efficient way) yet. At least based on the fishmen Island thus far.

4) Law's ability is just one of those broken one. If you get hit by it you are basically done for until it's undone or maybe other ways to revert back i don't know. In this scenario Luffy ( or others) maybe could still dodge the abilities. Something like Vergo vs Smoker fight. Law got the heart and it was that, but it took him a while to do that. Most likely Smoker was dodging/defending against it. but i guess Luffy could do the same since he is super fast. So in this case we wouldn't really know who is stronger law or luffy

Lastly, Could vergo also have an ability to revert back? Or maybe there are ways you can revert back abilities *_*. Although i do agree that the fight is probably finished, i am still having my fingers crossed until next chapter.

P.S. When you have a One piece chapter thread having more posts than a Naruto one, you know the chapter was just that great haha .
Forgot one last one . Vergo is actually siding with Law ( betraying Doflamingo) maybe because Doflamingo has done something to Vergo or some one he cared for ( insert any possible reason). It could even have something to do about Vergo having lost ( was it his daughter? ). That could be true instead of fake.
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Old 2012-11-30, 14:37   Link #104
Libros
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Originally Posted by articuzwolf View Post
your definitions of Logia and Paramecia are messed up

Logia doesn't only mean that you can't be slashed or attacked, they just can change their body into substance of their DF power hence avoid/nullify damage caused by an attack (without Haki)

Paramecia can only apply the properties of their DF power to their body (like how Luffy's body being rubber-like) or produce it (like how Mr 3 and Magellan can produce Candle and Poison respectively without being able to change their body into candle or poison)

and Buggy can be attacked just like how Gomu-Gomu Bazooka hit him real hard during his confrontation with Luffy in the earlier arc of OP
I'm sure he can be shot as well...he can only avoid getting slashed (or taking damage when he got slashed) since it was his DF properties as long as no Haki involved
Ah, that clears that up.
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Old 2012-11-30, 15:18   Link #105
Whitemoon648
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Originally Posted by articuzwolf View Post
your definitions of Logia and Paramecia are messed up

Logia doesn't only mean that you can't be slashed or attacked, they just can change their body into substance of their DF power hence avoid/nullify damage caused by an attack (without Haki)

Paramecia can only apply the properties of their DF power to their body (like how Luffy's body being rubber-like) or produce it (like how Mr 3 and Magellan can produce Candle and Poison respectively without being able to change their body into candle or poison)

and Buggy can be attacked just like how Gomu-Gomu Bazooka hit him real hard during his confrontation with Luffy in the earlier arc of OP
I'm sure he can be shot as well...he can only avoid getting slashed (or taking damage when he got slashed) since it was his DF properties as long as no Haki involved
Imo for Logia, they basically change their body to their elements. It's not that they nullify/avoid the damage per se but rather they change. For example ace was fire. By changing into fire he changed himself to fire and fire can't really be shot/slashed. Can you really damage fire or shoot fire? And yes in a way you are right too in terms of nullifying/avoiding but imo that's against the main body. They avoid damage against their main body by going into their elements.

Haki allows the user to attack a logia. As how it exactly works i think Oda hasn't given us a 100 percent answer but so far i am guessing is that either you can hit the main body or penetrate the logia defense.

These two are different. Being able to just hit it means the logia doesn't provide any defense against Haki. But if Haki penetrates the Logia defense then that would mean Logia does provide some line defense against Haki. I am going with the latter personally but there are imo evidence in favor of both theories.

I also think there might be a way to use Haki as a logia user against Haki. Example would be Akainu vs Marco/Vista as Blackbeard already mentioned. But although i am going with the theory that he used Haki to defend, there is a chance that maybe he used his Logia power ( maybe you can master/train your logia power) or even a combination of these two.

---

As for Paramecia Imo they are just their elements. Basically Luffy is a rubber man. He is a rubber. His body is already a rubber so he doesn't really need to change his body to rubber. Same with the Magellan or Mr 3.

Against Luffy thunder doesn't work because he is a rubber. In the same way you can't cut Buggy.

But overall i think Paramecia are more of a case by case thing.

Oda does have a general rule for these stuff but at times( you guys can agree or disagree) he has taken the liberty of making exceptions thus the case by case thing.

Plot wise he is very consistent and his foreshadowing is imo exceptional. But in terms of DF/Haki relationship, ... he hasn't been as consistent.
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Old 2012-11-30, 17:09   Link #106
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Originally Posted by Whitemoon648 View Post
As for Paramecia Imo they are just their elements. Basically Luffy is a rubber man. He is a rubber. His body is already a rubber so he doesn't really need to change his body to rubber. Same with the Magellan or Mr 3.
IMHO that's their biggest advantage.
Logias have to consciously change to their element. When they are unconscious/asleep, or are taken by surprise, they can't change and are hit, while Luffy and co. always have their respective properties, even when asleep or drowned in the water. Probably even then when they are cuffed with seastone.
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Old 2012-11-30, 18:13   Link #107
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Buggy weak willed? You know that Shanks and him were equals when they were with Roger. What's going to be the difference now that we know for sure that Buggy is going to be using confirmed Haki over the two year skip?
How is it confirmed?

Cristiano Ronaldo and Filipe Teixeira used to be equals.. playing in the national team.Does that mean anything?

Get outta here you troll.
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Old 2012-11-30, 20:04   Link #108
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Speaking of Buggy and haki, I've been saying this since the Impel Down chapters, but I'm fairly confident that even before the skip our clown buddy was capable of using CoA. Mainly, I'm thinking that was what he used to power up his bombs. Not to say that makes him comparable to world-class powers (after all, Mihawk swatted one of his own bombs back at him in Marineford), but what I was mainly getting at is that he wouldn't be totally helpless in a fight, even in the New World. After all, he's gonna become the Pirate God, anyway.




Going back on topic..... I'm WAY late on saying this, but I found it amusing how Law mocked Vergo by finally addressing him in a respectful manner (adding the "san" to his name, I mean). Also, I thought it was interesting how Dofla said that Law used to fear Vergo in the past. This makes me wonder if our supernova friend will eventually get his own flashback of his past with Dofla's crew before marching off to his final battle with him? I mean, even if he doesn't join the Straw-Hats, I can at least see Luffy helping him deal with whatever skeleton he has in his closet so they can further solidify their alliance.....
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Old 2012-11-30, 21:57   Link #109
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post


Going back on topic..... I'm WAY late on saying this, but I found it amusing how Law mocked Vergo by finally addressing him in a respectful manner (adding the "san" to his name, I mean). Also, I thought it was interesting how Dofla said that Law used to fear Vergo in the past. This makes me wonder if our supernova friend will eventually get his own flashback of his past with Dofla's crew before marching off to his final battle with him? I mean, even if he doesn't join the Straw-Hats, I can at least see Luffy helping him deal with whatever skeleton he has in his closet so they can further solidify their alliance.....
I say yes he will get a flash back . Most likely when he joins the strawhats or when he dies Ace style . I don't know, i kinda think Law has had a really sad past and eventually will die in an emotional way. As eventually i mean after Oda makes us all attached to him and after Strawhats like super like him, ... . So it could be sometime from now on.
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Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
IMHO that's their biggest advantage.
Logias have to consciously change to their element. When they are unconscious/asleep, or are taken by surprise, they can't change and are hit, while Luffy and co. always have their respective properties, even when asleep or drowned in the water. Probably even then when they are cuffed with seastone.
Yes indeed . That's how Smoker lost to law *_*. Ohhh that fight was epic .

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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Speaking of Buggy and haki, I've been saying this since the Impel Down chapters, but I'm fairly confident that even before the skip our clown buddy was capable of using CoA. Mainly, I'm thinking that was what he used to power up his bombs. Not to say that makes him comparable to world-class powers (after all, Mihawk swatted one of his own bombs back at him in Marineford), but what I was mainly getting at is that he wouldn't be totally helpless in a fight, even in the New World. After all, he's gonna become the Pirate God, anyway.

Although it is possible that he could/can use Haki, are you sure he could do much in new world? I mean yes he probably wouldn't be the weakest but he was easily defeated by Hannyabal , and many others at Impel down *_* . I am strictly talking about pre time skip here though.

For post time skip, i think Oda could either keep him the same way for comedy relief ( weak but act tough *_* ), or he could actually be much stronger. I think he has much potential but he is just too lazy and only cares for treasure. Now that he is being admired i can see him actually stepping up and getting strong. But who knows .
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Old 2012-11-30, 22:20   Link #110
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All this talk of Haki and Devil Fruit powers eh?

Well in my opinion, I think its based on the users power or how well trained their powers or having a natural element of weakness (eg. magma stronger than fire? or Rubber more durable to Lighting? etc) and seastone cuffs of course.

It is safe to assume that now the straw hats are in the New World, we as readers are gonna get exposed to a lot of characters who possess haki since there are a lot strong people in the world and since it is also know as the strongest sea of all, right? But more than that, I think a lot of devil fruit users are combining the use of haki with their DF ability (especially the most experienced ones) since the combination of it will only enhance their offensive and defensive like so. For example, Marco along with Vista (Vista doesn't have DF as far as it is known) attacking Akainu and etc.

Also I think it depends greatly on how well developed it is as stated above because since every strong opponent possesses some level or attribute of haki, the challenger or user has to have just as much if not more Haki than their opponent in order to contend with them (like Admirals or Emperors).

As for the Law cutting Vergo along with the laboratory, as said it before that plot wise Law had a score to settle with Vergo personally, meaning he was determined to end it no matter what I guess, that why Law put more effort into that attack. Also it is fair to say that Law's level of haki and DF power has developed greatly, that probably Vergo and most certainly Doflamingo underestimated Law. Any comments.
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Old 2012-11-30, 23:52   Link #111
articuzwolf
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Originally Posted by Whitemoon648 View Post
Imo for Logia, they basically change their body to their elements. It's not that they nullify/avoid the damage per se but rather they change. For example ace was fire. By changing into fire he changed himself to fire and fire can't really be shot/slashed. Can you really damage fire or shoot fire? And yes in a way you are right too in terms of nullifying/avoiding but imo that's against the main body. They avoid damage against their main body by going into their elements.
that is basically my point
and yes we can say that he put other things that don't fit to Logia and Zoan type into paramecia
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Old 2012-12-01, 00:12   Link #112
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How is it confirmed?

Cristiano Ronaldo and Filipe Teixeira used to be equals.. playing in the national team.Does that mean anything?

Get outta here you troll.
Spoiler:


Have a nice day.




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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Speaking of Buggy and haki, I've been saying this since the Impel Down chapters, but I'm fairly confident that even before the skip our clown buddy was capable of using CoA. Mainly, I'm thinking that was what he used to power up his bombs. Not to say that makes him comparable to world-class powers (after all, Mihawk swatted one of his own bombs back at him in Marineford), but what I was mainly getting at is that he wouldn't be totally helpless in a fight, even in the New World. After all, he's gonna become the Pirate God, anyway

I'm pretty sure Buggy knows about Haki being with Roger and all, but it's up to him if he knows how to use it. I wouldn't look into the Mihawk thing that much, not like Buggy and his new crew were fighting the marines/shichibukai. All they did was just taking up space by not fighting. Buggy was planning to go after WB but we saw how that turned out..
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Old 2012-12-01, 00:35   Link #113
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^Buggy being equal to Shanks when they were 9 doesn't really mean anything beyond the fact that they were equal when they were 9. Trying to somehow draw a comparison based on that fact makes little to no sense.

As for knowing Haki from Roger...well, Buggy is a bit of an idiot: clever, but stupid. I find it unlikely that he knew anything of Roger (or Rayleigh's) abilities beyond their physical prowess (or if he did know, it was vague and not useful until recently).

Buggy is funny and cool, but he is not the physical presence Shanks or even Luffy are. Rather, he is deceitful and opportunistic, running often, but fighting when he has to (which is rare). If he ever does become a Pirate God, it will only be because he is the Mr. Satan of the series (i.e. he will be in the right place at the right time and people will decide he is amazing even if he did little to nothing). And honestly, that is cool and funny as hell.
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Old 2012-12-01, 00:43   Link #114
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^Buggy being equal to Shanks when they were 9 doesn't really mean anything beyond the fact that they were equal when they were 9. Trying to somehow draw a comparison based on that fact makes little to no sense.

As for knowing Haki from Roger...well, Buggy is a bit of an idiot: clever, but stupid. I find it unlikely that he knew anything of Roger (or Rayleigh's) abilities beyond their physical prowess (or if he did know, it was vague and not useful until recently).

Buggy is funny and cool, but he is not the physical presence Shanks or even Luffy are. Rather, he is deceitful and opportunistic, running often, but fighting when he has to (which is rare). If he ever does become a Pirate God, it will only be because he is the Mr. Satan of the series (i.e. he will be in the right place at the right time and people will decide he is amazing even if he did little to nothing). And honestly, that is cool and funny as hell.
Yeah that's why Mihawk and the Admirals defeated Buggy. Thanks for telling me that, Eiichiro Oda.
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Old 2012-12-01, 00:48   Link #115
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Yeah that's why Mihawk and the Admirals defeated Buggy. Thanks for telling me that, Eiichiro Oda.
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about (and frankly your tone is is bordering on petulant).
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Old 2012-12-01, 03:59   Link #116
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Mr Satan is actually a badass and here's why. *snip*
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Old 2012-12-01, 06:41   Link #117
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Mr Satan is actually a badass and here's why. *snip*
????


Anyway, Buggy will return, and he will be a contender... in a way. He just has a certain... knack for being in the right place at the right time. He also may be more cunning than people give him credit for. Finally, his ability is among the more versatile among paramecia users that can't really be measured by "power level". I mean, not only can he split himself apart, but he can make any of the split parts other than his feet fly.

For one, Law would be completely useless against Buggy.
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Old 2012-12-01, 07:58   Link #118
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For one, Law would be completely useless against Buggy.
Tact, Mes and Counter Shock can all (probably) be used to great effect against Buggy. So, it is not like Buggy is completely immune to Law's Ope Ope fruit.
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Old 2012-12-01, 10:59   Link #119
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Yeah Law would be useless against Buggy. Thinking a rookie is gonna defeat the Pirate Messiah .
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Old 2012-12-01, 17:23   Link #120
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Tact, Mes and Counter Shock can all (probably) be used to great effect against Buggy. So, it is not like Buggy is completely immune to Law's Ope Ope fruit.

But Buggy has the Emergency Escape maneuver that should enable him to dodge Law's deadlier moves! So see, even that big-shot super rookie stands no chance against the Pirate God!



But on a more serious and on-topic note, I wonder if Law can actually split himself apart with his power, as well? We know he can at least use Mes on himself since he lacked a heart since his introduction this storyline up until this very chapter, but can he Shamble himself up? If so, I guess that would make Buggy's power kinda redundant in comparison, wouldn't it....?
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