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View Poll Results: Sword Art Online - Episode 22 Rating
10 out of 10 : Near Perfect... 71 47.97%
9 out of 10 : Excellent... 39 26.35%
8 out of 10 : Very Good... 18 12.16%
7 out of 10 : Good... 9 6.08%
6 out of 10 : Average... 2 1.35%
5 out of 10 : Below Average... 1 0.68%
4 out of 10 : Poor... 3 2.03%
3 out of 10 : Bad... 2 1.35%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad... 1 0.68%
1 out of 10 : Torturous... 2 1.35%
Voters: 148. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-12-02, 19:59   Link #241
Rising Dragon
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The problem with trying to use a different character for Suguha's role in Kirito's quest, one who isn't completely new, is that those characters would have to be from Sword Art Online.

None of which, if Sugou's taunting was any indication, would be all that interested in getting into another game like SAO only 2 months after the ordeal. Suguha has a good reason for being in the game to help and having enough playtime to be of any use to Kirito skills-wise. The only others who would be at the same level are Agil, Klein, and Asuna. None of which are available, it would seem.
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:00   Link #242
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher View Post
It would atleast not added this pointless and forced drama about her and not wasted episodes.

Her story doesn't matter to the over all plot at all.

That her whole existantance in this arc was pointless and was only used to waste episodes on forced drama.

It's exactly that choping away her story would not change anything to the plot, that makes her story pointless.
Oh? So things that you don't like are not part of the plot? Or rather if they don't help Kirito they're not necessary?

There's more than one story being told here in case you haven't realized it.

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Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher View Post
Have more influence on Kirito and the plot.
Yup, Nanoha series all over again, nothing but the favorite pairing matters.


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Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher View Post
What i meant was who said that a different character should be a new character that just got introduced in this episode or an episode ago.
He/she would obviously be introduced at the beginning of this arc, but without the baggage of this fiasoc of forced drama.
Yes, this magically character that does everything right and give all of his/her support to only Kirito's cause and nothing else.


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Originally Posted by Makender View Post
Why can't it be? Side characters can serve as one time stories that develop Kirito and his story without becoming the new focus of the story. Honestly, having two focuses (unless really well written) can just serve to bog down the other focus. Then we just have two muddled through stories.
Because it shows that the world does not revolve around two people.
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:04   Link #243
kyp275
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Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
Suguha's. Story. IS The. Plot.

You don't have to like that, but that's the truth.
QFT

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Originally Posted by Makender View Post
Why can't it be?
Because Kawhara Reki, not Makender, picked up the pen and wrote SAO, and as far as Kawahara Reki is concerned, the story of the SAO series is not solely about Kirito.
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:09   Link #244
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Because it's not ALL about Kirito, not everyone exist solely as a stepping stone for him.
It may be worth conceding that, in the first arc (at least of the anime), this basically was Kirito's story. The narrative was essentially only told from his perspective (minus brief glimpses). Now, in the second arc, this story is told from three different perspectives: Suguha, Kirito, and Asuna (in approximately that order of magnitude). Each one is the protagonist of their own story taking place in ALO. Each story is interrelated and intertwined.

Whether each person thinks the split perspective and multiple concurrent story thing is well-done or not... to me that's a separate discussion. As has been mentioned, this is perhaps a bit harder to follow than it would be -- for example -- in a book, because the anime is almost obsessively following a "show don't tell" principle, and rarely uses internal monologue except when absolutely necessary. So you could almost assume that the story is following "the camera operator's perspective", but the camera is still following those three people.
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:10   Link #245
Makender
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Because it shows that the world does not revolve around two people.
It's a basic and obvious assumption that the world doesn't revolve around two people. You don't have to throw in a bunch of different focuses to show that. The point of telling a story is to focus on some character and little side stories that develop solely on those characters show that there are things going on in the world, but those things serve the writers point in developing a certain character. Would you like it if suddenly in the story they enter into a filler arc to focus on some new anime specific character while Kirito has to deal with Asuna and Sugu? Why don't we throw in a nuclear attack on Japan that Kirito has to deal with too? That'll really show that the world is out there.
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:11   Link #246
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Originally Posted by Makender View Post
I think it seems like unnecessary diversions because Kirito's ultimate goal in ALO is to save Asuna and Sugu seems to be distracting him from that goal. In SAO, the goal was to escape the game and over the course of that goal the story focused on Kirito's and Asuna's relationship (with asides for Lizbeth, Silica, and others which is kind of like filler). Honestly, I don't really mind it, but I don't see why Sugu couldn't be written out. It just makes it a detoured grind toward Kirito's ultimate goal. Concentrating on Kirito's journey does not have to be one-dimensional either with effective writing. Sugu's part of the story just seems to be frills to what Kirito is trying to do.
Again, if this is how you feel about Suguha then there's nothing to be said. However the point is that the core of this story thus far has largely revolved around Suguha's point of view and feelings. Writing her character out is writing out most of the story of the arc. If you're going to go that far then there is almost no point to the ALO arc since neither Kirito nor Asuna is getting that much character development.

All of this has been thematically consistent with the way the show has built up its narrative regarding VMMORPG's and their social aspect. Kirito saving Asuna is not the main goal of the story, that is the character Kirito's main goal (Who again isn't even the main perspective of the arc). Moreover, until this very last scene Kriito has been intently focused on his quest to save Asuna. He used Lyfa to help him get to the place he needed to be. Without her Kirito could not have learned about the game that fast. So in reality, she has not been a diversion to Kirito's goal and her character is definitely not a diversion to the story's narrative.

Whether you like it or not, once more, is entirely up to you.

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
It may be worth conceding that, in the first arc (at least of the anime), this basically was Kirito's story. The narrative was essentially only told from his perspective (minus brief glimpses). Now, in the second arc, this story is told from three different perspectives: Suguha, Kirito, and Asuna (in approximately that order of magnitude). Each one is the protagonist of their own story taking place in ALO. Each story is interrelated and intertwined.

Whether each person thinks the split perspective and multiple concurrent story thing is well-done or not... to me that's a separate discussion.
Yeah Kirito is the main character afterall and part of the transition to ALO, which might be jarring to many, is that suddenly he is not the dominant point of view for the arc. I think it's more jarring in anime form though, since after completing SAO you would pick up an entirely new book whereas this anime jsut continued right where it left off with SAO. The LN's feel like you're moving onto something new, whereas this should be true for the anime it just kinda flows uninterrupted without that sense of "I'm reading an entirely new adventure"
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:11   Link #247
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
It may be worth conceding that, in the first arc, this basically was Kirito's story. The narrative was essentially only told from his perspective. Now, in the second arc, this story is told from three different perspectives: Suguha, Kirito, and Asuna (in approximately that order of magnitude). Each one is the protagonist of their own story taking place in ALO. Each story is interrelated and intertwined.
No arguments here- my statement was solely referring to ALO.
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:14   Link #248
Makender
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Because Kawhara Reki, not Makender, picked up the pen and wrote SAO, and as far as Kawahara Reki is concerned, the story of the SAO series is not solely about Kirito.
Yup and he's done pretty well with it too. I also know that people have complained about all the confusing timeskips and plot holes that has caused him to go back and try to rewrite the series. Just saying.

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Writing her character out is writing out most of the story of the arc. If you're going to go that far then there is almost no point to the ALO arc since neither Kirito nor Asuna is getting that much character development.
So then you change the point of the ALO arc to give the character development to Kirito and Asuna. Very simple.
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:18   Link #249
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Makender View Post
It's a basic and obvious assumption that the world doesn't revolve around two people. You don't have to throw in a bunch of different focuses to show that.
Yes... Yes you do.

The world... The story world, exist only as far as the author putting focus on them. If all those other people and things serve only for Kirito and Asuna, then yes within the context of that story- the world does revolve around two people.

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Originally Posted by Makender View Post
The point of telling a story is to focus on some character and little side stories that develop solely on those characters show that there are things going on in the world, but those things serve the writers point in developing a certain character. Would you like it if suddenly in the story they enter into a filler arc to focus on some new anime specific character while Kirito has to deal with Asuna and Sugu. Why don't we throw in a nuclear attack on Japan that Kirito has to deal with too? That'll really show that the world is out there.

Except Suguha's plot line was set up from the beginning so your point is moot, plus it runs parallel to Kirito's story so it doesn't derail the progression of the story unlike your examples.

Why can't your focus on some other characters include her?
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:19   Link #250
Dauerlutscher
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Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
Suguha's. Story. IS The. Plot.

You don't have to like that, but that's the truth.
Nope. It's just a subplot that has absolutely nothing to do with the actual plot.

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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Oh? So things that you don't like are not part of the plot? Or rather if they don't help Kirito they're not necessary?

There's more than one story being told here in case you haven't realized it.



Yup, Nanoha series all over again, nothing but the favorite pairing matters.




Yes, this magically character that does everything right and give all of his/her support to only Kirito's cause.
Dude. It seems to me that really want to start a pointless fight for no reason. Just because someone does't really give damn about a pointless subplot who you actually like and that added nothing to the overall story and that wasted many episodes. I made it pretty clear what i don't like about it and I think many people could at least understand why it was bothering me. So just take a chill pill and relax. Don't talk to me before you did that.

So again. I will move on from this pointless debate and this was my last post regarding this topic.
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:19   Link #251
Reckoner
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So then you change the point of the ALO arc to give the character development to Kirito and Asuna. Very simple.
So you want a different story to be told because you do not like the current one. OK.
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:26   Link #252
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Makender View Post

So then you change the point of the ALO arc to give the character development to Kirito and Asuna. Very simple.
Like what? More I-love-you, I-miss-you moments?

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Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher View Post
Nope. It's just a subplot that has absolutely nothing to do with the actual plot.
And yet strangely enough it has quite a bit of focus since the first episode of the arc.


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Dude. It seems to me that really want to start a pointless fight for no reason. Just because someone does't really give damn about a pointless subplot who you actually like and that added nothing to the overall story and that wasted many episodes. I made it pretty clear what i don't like about it and I think many people could at least understand why it was bothering me. So just take a chill pill and relax. Don't talk to me before you did that.
I'm not going to force you like what you don't like, I'm just going to keep pointing out how flawed your argument is for how 'pointless'.

Also, 'wasted many episodes' ? Either that means that it has a lot of focus that would make it a MAIN PLOT, or you're seriously exaggerating.
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:28   Link #253
SilverSyko
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Not that I want to degrade this thread even further but my curiosity must be sated. How have so many people come to the conclusion that Suguha's issues are the main focus of this arc? I was under the impression that rescuing Asuna was.
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:30   Link #254
Chaos2Frozen
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Not that I want to degrade this thread even further, but how have so many people come to the conclusion that Suguha's issues are the main focus of this arc? I was under the impression that rescuing Asuna was.
They BOTH are, you can have more than one focus if both characters have their own motives and development.
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:31   Link #255
Reckoner
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Not that I want to degrade this thread even further, but how have so many people come to the conclusion that Suguha's issues are the main focus of this arc? I was under the impression that rescuing Asuna was.
From a conflict perspective in the overall story, the main goal is to save Asuna. However the main character development, internal struggles, and drama have been stemming from Suguha's character. She's clearly been given a large focus since the beginning of the ALO arc, and in fact much of the story's POV has actually been seen more from Suguha's perspective than Kirito's.
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:31   Link #256
Makender
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Yes... Yes you do.

The world... The story world, exist only as far as the author putting focus on them. If all those other people and things serve only for Kirito and Asuna, then yes within the context of that story- the world does revolve around two people.
And I'm saying that's how a story world should be. We do not want several main focuses of the story. The story world should focus on certain characters and the side characters in the story should naturally bring out the qualities of those characters. No one cares if some random character shows up and becomes the new focus of the story. That's not good writing. If he wanted the story to focus on Sugu then saving Asuna should not have been part of the plot.

Quote:
Except Suguha's plot line was set up from the beginning so your point is moot, plus it runs parallel to Kirito's story so it doesn't derail the progression of the story unlike your examples.

Why can't your focus on some other characters include her?
But Sugu's plot line does in a way derail progression of Kirito's story because then is only so much screentime and now some of that time is devoted to her and not to Kirito and Asuna. If Sugu is to be included at all, her story could be handled much like Lizbeth or Silica in one episode that in some way develops Kirito's character. In no way does Sugu's story become a main focus of the overall plot of the story this way.
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:34   Link #257
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I think we should all keep in mind that the arc isn't over, and we've yet to see how this revelation of Suguha's is going to play out after the confrontation in the bedroom. I think only then we can really judge its relevance to the plot. The SAO arc had many little details that tied the plot together at the end and I have no doubt ALO's arc will have the same.

On a personal standpoint I like how Suguha's plot ties into Kirito and Asuna's views on the world in comparison to Sugou's views on it.
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:42   Link #258
Chaos2Frozen
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And I'm saying that's how a story world should be. We do not want several main focuses of the story. The story world should focus on certain characters and the side characters in the story should naturally bring out the qualities of those characters. No one cares if some random character shows up and becomes the new focus of the story. That's not good writing. If he wanted the story to focus on Sugu then saving Asuna should not have been part of the plot.
You're not looking at this from a big picture.

Firstly, there's only so many stories you can tell using two people before it starts to get stale.

Secondly, focusing on different characters allows you to explore options that your first two characters might not have access to.

And lastly, not everybody might like your main characters. Which is why you have multiple characters to draw in more people (and I don't mean just fanservice) and if people really like those other characters, they would want more focus on them as well.


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But Sugu's plot line does in a way derail progression of Kirito's story because then is only so much screentime and now some of that time is devoted to her and not to Kirito and Asuna. If Sugu is to be included at all, her story could be handled much like Lizbeth or Silica in one episode that in some way develops Kirito's character. In no way does Sugu's story become a main focus of the overall plot of the story this way.

Seriously, what more do you need from Kirito and Asuna in this story arc?
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:42   Link #259
Oroboro
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"The show could have done X instead of Y", doesn't really hold up too well, because you can say that about literally anything.

Suguha's story could be chopped off to make more room for the development of Kirito and Asuna. You could have had Asuna wake up after SAO, and have ALO be about them going to school together and having fun together in game. They both could have died at the end of SAO, and that would be the end of that.

Maybe some people are interested in seeing those stories instead. That's fine. But the story we're watching now is what it is, so judge it based on that, not what it isn't.

Alternatively there's always the route of writing / read fanfiction if you think the story should do something else. =P
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:44   Link #260
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You could have had Asuna wake up after SAO, and have ALO be about them going to school together and having fun together in game.
That would be a pretty fun story arc, actually.
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