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View Poll Results: Sword Art Online - Episode 22 Rating
10 out of 10 : Near Perfect... 71 47.97%
9 out of 10 : Excellent... 39 26.35%
8 out of 10 : Very Good... 18 12.16%
7 out of 10 : Good... 9 6.08%
6 out of 10 : Average... 2 1.35%
5 out of 10 : Below Average... 1 0.68%
4 out of 10 : Poor... 3 2.03%
3 out of 10 : Bad... 2 1.35%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad... 1 0.68%
1 out of 10 : Torturous... 2 1.35%
Voters: 148. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-12-02, 20:46   Link #261
Oroboro
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Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
That would be a pretty fun story arc, actually.
Oh I agree entirely.
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:46   Link #262
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That would be a pretty fun story arc, actually.
Fun, sure, but without a definite conflict it'd be a pointless story.
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:48   Link #263
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Fun, sure, but without a definite conflict it'd be a pointless story.
MMOs are full of conflicts if you ask me....
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:55   Link #264
Makender
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You're not looking at this from a big picture.

Firstly, there's only so many stories you can tell using two people before it starts to get stale.

Secondly, focusing on different characters allows you to explore options that your first two characters might not have access to.

And lastly, not everybody might like your main characters. Which is why you have multiple characters to draw in more people (and I don't mean just fanservice) and if people really like those other characters, they would want more focus on them as well.
Really? I think several stories have successfully focused on developing ONE through the story. Trigun with Vash's travails? You slowly develop one character through a variety of side stories where the side stories and new characters carry the interest factor along the story. In no way do those side stories then become the new focus. And if people like the side characters there then you write spin-offs focusing on them.


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Seriously, what more do you need from Kirito and Asuna in this story arc?
I would like there to be consistency in the story telling, not specifically anything from Kirito and Asuna. If they want to focus on Sugu then develop and focus on Sugu. By focusing on two plots, with Kirito trying to save Asuna being in the background, you just water down their part. It's bad writing.
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Old 2012-12-02, 20:58   Link #265
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Fun, sure, but without a definite conflict it'd be a pointless story.
The conflict: can Kirito and Asuna properly balance their school time and their MMORPG time? Or will they spend so many sleepless nights playing ALO that they fail their driver's test?!?!?!

In all seriousness, I think that had Kuwahara decided to go down that route, it could work nicely as a lead-in into the story arc.
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Old 2012-12-02, 21:02   Link #266
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
From a conflict perspective in the overall story, the main goal is to save Asuna. However the main character development, internal struggles, and drama have been stemming from Suguha's character. She's clearly been given a large focus since the beginning of the ALO arc, and in fact much of the story's POV has actually been seen more from Suguha's perspective than Kirito's.
Errr....it has? Kirito is the main character so I've always thought the story needed to follow him and show what he is going through and ultimately trying to accomplish. Other people are irrelevant unless they somehow tie into his story.

I mean I guess developing Suguha as she currently is is better than being a complete cardboard cut-out of a character, but the thing being argued about in here is that her development and story has no affect on Kirito's story. If it doesn't affect the main character, it's irrelevant. The same can't be said about the vice-versa though. (Kirito's story largely affects Suguha's.)

I understand that you guys are classifying Suguha/Lyfa as the "deuteragonist" of this arc, as in "the 2nd main character", but unfortunately with Asuna's presence she feels nothing more than a supporting character like Silica or Lizbeth to me.
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Old 2012-12-02, 21:04   Link #267
Makender
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The conflict: can Kirito and Asuna properly balance their school time and their MMORPG time? Or will they spend so many sleepless nights playing ALO that they fail their driver's test?!?!?!

In all seriousness, I think that had Kuwahara decided to go down that route, it could work nicely as a lead-in into the story arc.
This. Then you can focus on the Sugu story and goodness with them trying to get to the top of Yggdrasil and in-game politics serving as side stories to develop them.

Honestly, I guess my major gripe is that the plot of Kirito trying to save Asuna gets kinda shafted by Sugu's plot being there too and taking front seat.
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Old 2012-12-02, 21:07   Link #268
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Really? I think several stories have successfully focused on developing ONE through the story. Trigun with Vash's travails? You slowly develop one character through a variety of side stories where the side stories and new characters carry the interest factor along the story. In no way do those side stories then become the new focus. And if people like the side characters there then you write spin-offs focusing on them.
Last time I've checked, nobody said Suguha has become the new focus, Kirito hasn't suddenly abandon his original goal.

More focus does not necessary mean needing to write a side story, it just means... More focus.

Putting aside one book, or rather half a book for them doesn't seem like too much of a request.

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Originally Posted by Makender View Post
I would like there to be consistency in the story telling, not specifically anything from Kirito and Asuna. If they want to focus on Sugu then develop and focus on Sugu. By focusing on two plots, with Kirito trying to save Asuna being in the background, you just water down their part. It's bad writing.
How? How is it bad writing or watered down?

Two plotlines does not a convoluted story make, in fact it could help cover for one another.

Again, since that seems to be your major focus, what more do you expect from Kirito and Asuna at this point?
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Old 2012-12-02, 21:17   Link #269
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Last time I've checked, nobody said Suguha has become the new focus, Kirito hasn't suddenly abandon his original goal.

More focus does not necessary mean needing to write a side story, it just means... More focus.

Putting aside one book doesn't seem like too much of a request.
What do you call focusing on Sugu's love for Kirito across the entire arc? That's a new focus alongside Kirito trying to save Asuna. And the very act of giving more focus to one area means less focus in another. Isn't that watering down a supposed main character's story?

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How? Is it bad writing or watered down?

Two plotlines does not a convoluted story make.
I'm sorry, but I consider Kirito's goal in trying to save Asuna to be watered down when the story seems more focused on Sugu's concerns. Look at Sugou. He's supposed to be the main villain in this arc, but gets so little screentime and is largely considered a joke. Why not develop him as well as he's central to the supposed ultimate goal of this arc of Kirito trying to save Asuna.
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Old 2012-12-02, 21:22   Link #270
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What do you call focusing on Sugu's love for Kirito across the entire arc? That's a new focus alongside Kirito trying to save Asuna. And the very act of giving more focus to one area means less focus in another. Isn't that watering down a supposed main character's story?
Please, just tell me what more do you want from Kirito and Asuna at this point of the story =_=

What more do you need from them?

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Originally Posted by Makender View Post
I'm sorry, but I consider Kirito's goal in trying to save Asuna to be watered down when the story seems more focused on Sugu's concerns. Look at Sugou. He's supposed to be the main villain in this arc, but gets so little screentime and is largely considered a joke. Why not develop him as well as he's central to the supposed ultimate goal of this arc of Kirito trying to save Asuna.
Because nobody likes him and that's what he's designed to be.
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Old 2012-12-02, 21:26   Link #271
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Errr....it has? Kirito is the main character so I've always thought the story needed to follow him and show what he is going through and ultimately trying to accomplish. Other people are irrelevant unless they somehow tie into his story.
Well he's still in the story isn't he? Except we're seeing his character from Suguha's eyes. She's in no way irrelevant because of how close of a relationship she shares with Kirito. She isn't just a random girl in his life, she's technically someone he lived with for most of his life.

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I mean I guess developing Suguha as she currently is is better than being a complete cardboard cut-out of a character, but the thing being argued about in here is that her development and story has no affect on Kirito's story. If it doesn't affect the main character, it's irrelevant. The same can't be said about the vice-versa though. (Kirito's story largely affects Suguha's.)

I understand that you guys are classifying Suguha/Lyfa as the "deuteragonist" of this arc, as in "the 2nd main character", but unfortunately with Asuna's presence she feels nothing more than a supporting character like Silica or Lizbeth to me.
But IT DOES have an affect on Kirito. His relationship with Suguha was alluded to earlier. The relationship although being seen mostly form Suguha's perspective up this point, has been important to both character. It's the defining relationship of this particular story.

I also find it silly that people see the relationship as ultimately pointless because of Asuna's presence in the story. Just because she might not be the romantic choice in the end doesn't mean their relationship is meaningless. All the more so because of their family's special circumstances and the way it impacts Kirito, which is a defining part of this entire arc.

Kirito's story isn't just about saving Asuna, although of course that's very important to him.
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Old 2012-12-02, 21:30   Link #272
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What do you call focusing on Sugu's love for Kirito across the entire arc? That's a new focus alongside Kirito trying to save Asuna. And the very act of giving more focus to one area means less focus in another. Isn't that watering down a supposed main character's story?
Confirming that all sections of the Lord of the Rings that didn't deal directly with Frodo tossing ring in Mt. Doom watered down the story.
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Old 2012-12-02, 21:32   Link #273
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Please, just tell me what more do you want from Kirito and Asuna at this point of the story =_=

What more do you need from them?
Deeper development into their backstory, character quirks, etc. Heck, I don't even need that (but it would be kind of nice). Honestly, Kirito saving Asuna feels like the subplot here when its supposed to be the main plot. Its non-nonsensical to shoehorn it into the story. I could argue all the same to just eliminate that subfocus to focus on Sugu. What point does Kirito trying to save Asuna serve if it no longer adequately develops their character? Its just needless, extra plot then.

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Because nobody likes him and that's what he's designed to be.
Well there's a wasted opportunity to make the story more interesting.

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Confirming that all sections of the Lord of the Rings that didn't deal directly with Frodo tossing ring in Mt. Doom watered down the story.
They serve to develop Frodo's character though and progress TOWARD his ultimate goal ie developing a certain main character that stories are supposed to do. And honestly, LOTR suffers from longwindedness so blah. Sugu's part of the story in my opinion just distracts from the supposed main goal of the plot.
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Old 2012-12-02, 21:37   Link #274
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Honestly, Kirito saving Asuna feels like the subplot here when its supposed to be the main plot. Its non-nonsensical to shoehorn it into the story. I could argue all the same to just eliminate that subfocus to focus on Sugu. What point does Kirito trying to save Asuna serve if it no longer adequately develops their character? Its just needless, extra plot then.
YES! That's the point!!! Is *is not* the main plot! You've just decided that it's the main plot because it features the "main character", but that's not the only basis on which you can make this determination.

There are two equal intertwined plots that -- together -- form the ALO arc. You can't split one from the other because they're co-dependant.

You're arguing that they should cut off one to focus on the other, but their choice is "Both". As it stands you *could* tell two separate stories about each plot, but that isn't how they did it. They're telling both at the same time because the characters are all connected to each other.

If you want to argue that this is or isn't good in your opinion, that's okay, but that's what they're doing. Two stories, intertwined, converging around a common theme and message. That is ALO.
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Old 2012-12-02, 21:37   Link #275
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Confirming that all sections of the Lord of the Rings that didn't deal directly with Frodo tossing ring in Mt. Doom watered down the story.
lmao <3

This has been a fun thread, everyone. We can't peak here before the series is over, though, so in three weeks, let's make sure to have an argument over the final episode that puts this week's to shame.
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Old 2012-12-02, 21:43   Link #276
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YES! That's the point!!! Is *is not* the main plot! You've just decided that it's the main plot because it features the "main character", but that's not the only basis on which you can make this determination.

There are two equal intertwined plots that -- together -- form the ALO arc. You can't split one from the other because they're co-dependant.

You're arguing that they should cut off one to focus on the other, but their choice is "Both". As it stands you *could* tell two separate stories about each plot, but that isn't how they did it. They're telling both at the same time because the characters are all connected to each other.

If you want to argue that this is or isn't good in your opinion, that's okay, but that's what they're doing. Two stories, intertwined, converging around a common theme and message. That is ALO.
Fair enough. Like you allude to, its not how I would write the story and I think the story suffers for it, but that's my opinion.
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Old 2012-12-02, 21:45   Link #277
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Deeper development into their backstory, character quirks, etc. Heck, I don't even need that (but it would be kind of nice). Honestly, Kirito saving Asuna feels like the subplot here when its supposed to be the main plot. Its non-nonsensical to shoehorn it into the story. I could argue all the same to just eliminate that subfocus to focus on Sugu. What point does Kirito trying to save Asuna serve if it no longer adequately develops their character? Its just needless, extra plot then.
In my opinion, you have to understand that this arc is actually focused on Kirito and Sugu, not on Kirito and Asuna. If you want more Kirito and Asuna, it would have to be the next arc. From the start of this arc, when Sugu comes into the picture, it's quite obvious that she is going to be the highlight.

Besides, what kind of development do you actually want between Kirito and Asuna in this arc, when clearly, Asuna herself is not the main focus here? Do you want even more flashbacks between Kirito and Asuna? But you should know that this arc ends when Kirito saves Asuna (that's the main objective, after all). So it's kind of like very difficult to have development between Asuna and Kirito when they don't have contact with each other.

Well, anyway, Asuna is actually the center of conflict for Sugu here, so saving Asuna is actually an important subplot, because without Asuna, there is no conflict, and without conflict, Sugu wouldn't even be in the picture.
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Old 2012-12-02, 21:47   Link #278
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Deeper development into their backstory, character quirks, etc. Heck, I don't even need that (but it would be kind of nice). Honestly, Kirito saving Asuna feels like the subplot here when its supposed to be the main plot. Its non-nonsensical to shoehorn it into the story.
And how do you propose on further development into their backstory when they are worlds apart? More flashbacks?

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I could argue all the same to just eliminate that subfocus to focus on Sugu. What point does Kirito trying to save Asuna serve if it no longer adequately develops their character? Its just needless, extra plot then.
Why does it have to be A or B? The attention span of most people allows for more than a singleminded focused story.
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Old 2012-12-02, 21:48   Link #279
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They serve to develop Frodo's character though and progress TOWARD his ultimate goal ie developing a certain main character that stories are supposed to do. And honestly, LOTR suffers from longwindedness so blah. Sugu's part of the story in my opinion just distracts from the supposed main goal of the plot.
Actually, I was referring to the portion of the story that did not involve Frodo at all - Rohan, Isengard, Fangorn, Gondor... you know, like a good 1/2 of the whole story, if not more. If LOTR was too long for you, let's try something more recent and shorter, let's say... Fate/Zero, which according to your logic must also be super-watered down as well, since a good chunk of the story had nothing to do with Saber/Kiritsugu either.

Epic Gilgamesh vs Super Bro Iskandar? tsk, nothing more than mere distraction right?


TBH, it sounds to me like you just want things to be as simple as possible.
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Old 2012-12-02, 21:49   Link #280
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And how do you propose on further development into their backstory when they are worlds apart? More flashbacks?



Why does it have to be A or B? The attention span of most people allows for two stories.
Yay. You read my mind on flashbacks
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