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Old 2012-12-03, 15:42   Link #121
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
Want a recent example? IRAQ. You may be too young to remember, but at the end of 2003 when the conquest was done and "mission accomplished" was flagged, many people in the Bush Administration rumbled that those who were not part of the "willing" that joined the invasion or supported the invasion, will not be available to rebuild Iraq or get the oil contractors. Your Prime Minister, Harper I think? at that time, had to come to Bush to get assurance that Canada can get a piece of the pie.

Of course, the terrorism and carbombing made the whole thing unappealing to western "investors" shortly after.
Actually, Iraq was only partially about the oil, part of it was Bush Jr. finishing the job to "get him" due to Saddam's involvement in a plot on Bush Sr. in Kuwait. I believe more oil was coming out of Iraq through the black market and the massively corrupt Oil-for-Food program than over the last few years post-war "New Iraq"

Regarding Iraq rebuilding .. oh boy oh boy. I think you're missing the forest for the trees. Do you know who is one of the most worst off for all those rebuilding contracts? The U.S. government. Do you know how much funding went into the rebuilding of the war-torn country from the U.S?? Over $51 billion. The U.S. government was massively defrauded by those contractors. Let alone expenses for the war -- estimated at over $1 trillion ($3 trillion overall economic impact) it was a terrible investment. Even the Brits spent over $20 billion in expenditures and they barely participated.

Anyways, people can say what they want on numerous topics, and I won't bat an eye -- I'll admit I'm not well-versed in every and all topics. But I'm pretty wary about people delving into the financial markets, economics or the political-economic sphere..

Outlook remains uncertain
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Old 2012-12-03, 15:46   Link #122
ArchmageXin
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
Actually, Iraq was only partially about the oil, part of it was Bush Jr. finishing the job to "get him" due to Saddam's involvement in a plot on Bush Sr. in Kuwait. I believe more oil was coming out of Iraq through the black market and the massively corrupt Oil-for-Food program than over the last few years post-war "New Iraq"

Regarding Iraq rebuilding .. oh boy oh boy. I think you're missing the forest for the trees. Do you know who is one of the most worst off for all those rebuilding contracts? The U.S. government. Do you know how much funding went into the rebuilding of the war-torn country from the U.S?? Over $51 billion. The U.S. government was massively defrauded by those contractors. Let alone expenses for the war -- estimated at over $1 trillion ($3 trillion overall economic impact) it was a terrible investment. Even the Brits spent over $20 billion in expenditures and they barely participated.

Anyways, people can say what they want on numerous topics, and I won't bat an eye -- but I'm pretty wary about people delving into the financial markets, economics or the political-economic sphere..

Outlook remains uncertain
Stupidity will not cloud ill intentions. Just because U.S Gov utterly screw the pooch and failed, does not mean their intention was not for harm.

It is like a failed bank robber, arrested and forced to pay compensation to the teller lady he injured in the robbery-but does not change the fact he entered with the intend to ROB.
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Old 2012-12-03, 15:53   Link #123
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
Stupidity will not cloud ill intentions. Just because U.S Gov utterly screw the pooch and failed, does not mean their intention was not for harm.

It is like a failed bank robber, arrested and forced to pay compensation to the teller lady he injured in the robbery-but does not change the fact he entered with the intend to ROB.
Again, you're missing the forest for the trees, the war was for strategic and political motives. The economic rebuilding is a treat offered afterwards for people that "agreed with us politically."

Your responses and queries are my exact fear. Economics is often a key issue in politics and therefore is easily manipulated for it's use. The lack of mental separation of the two topics creates massive domestic problems as we've seen and will continue to see. (Look at real and nominal growth inflation rates in China and the situation in the U.S.) The application of a doctrine that does not separate those two on a global scale will result in massive international problems.

Anyways: Back to Chinese Boats --

Vietnam state oil company says Chinese fishing boats cut cables being laid by seismic survey vessel

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/...756/story.html

Outlook is negative
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Old 2012-12-03, 15:58   Link #124
ArchmageXin
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
Again, you're missing the forest for the trees, the war was for strategic and political motives. The economic rebuilding is a treat offered afterwards for people that "agreed with us politically."

Your responses and queries are my exact fear. Economics is often a key issue in politics and therefore is easily manipulated for it's use. The lack of mental separation of the two topics creates massive domestic problems as we've seen and will continue to see. (Look at real and nominal growth inflation rates in China and the situation in the U.S.) The application of a doctrine that does not separate those two on a global scale will result in massive international problems.

Outlook is negative
So you argue it is better for a country (say, Canada) to have the Americans claim it by Invasion rather than have it brought out by the chinese fair and square?
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Old 2012-12-03, 16:10   Link #125
Ithekro
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With the Indians potentially getting involved in the South China Sea, this could up things even more.

The Indian Navy has 1 very old 1950s era British aircraft carrier (though not that much older than USS Enterprise), 15 submarines (one nuclear), 8 destroyers, 15 frigates, and 24 corvettes. Plus a number of assualt ships, patrol craft, and minesweepers.

They have three carriers under construction to come out in the next ten years or so. One the former Soviet carrier that has been completely rebuilt, and two Indian built carriers due in 2017 and 2022.

The Chinese Army Navy has about three times the number of surface ships and about four times the number of submarines. Both have just one carrier, and the Indian one has experiance on its side.
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Old 2012-12-03, 16:15   Link #126
willx
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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
So you argue it is better for a country (say, Canada) to have the Americans claim it by Invasion rather than have it brought out by the chinese fair and square?
I'd say an economic invasion is still an actual invasion. That said, I'm also NOT claiming China is economically invading anything. What I am saying is that economic actions by sovereign nations need to be evaluated strategically/politically vs. purely economically.

China offering to buy oil assets from Canada should also elicit a response that considers factors beyond economics. It should factor in strategic considerations. It's that simple.

In your crazy example: If the U.S. ever sent us a threatening letter saying they want our oilsands for nominal consideration, we'd have to figure out a response - petition NATO, find allies, determine cost of conflict, apply political pressure, negotiate in the best interests of the nation, etc etc. Strategic considerations.

Side Bar -- Your thinking still seems to be of an Imperialistic standpoint. Point is, the U.S. would actually never do it. In a modern world, conquering a place to secure assets isn't economically feasible -- what do you think happened to Spain's economy with the influx of South American gold?

Second Side Bar -- I don't want to get in to this on a thread like this, but what do you think Economics and Capitalism even is? They are respectively: 1) A study and discipline on the allocation of scarce resources and 2) It's fundamentally just a crowdsourcing mechanism to allocate the productive capacity of a society. It's efficient and inefficient in different ways and has certain flaws and weaknesses. Why do states tax companies in the first place? Heck, why do corporations have a mandate to earn profits? Think on this, do the research, we can continue these conversations in private if necessary.

Reply hazy, ask again later
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Old 2012-12-03, 16:33   Link #127
Jinto
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@ArchmageXin

I guess willx is more interested in white washing what happened in Iraq, because he learned to see himself as hero and liberator (because of the propa... uhm patriotic media landscape).
Can you imagine how horrible that is, when you realize that the liberator image does not quite match the reality? You start to search for excuses. You try to find worse examples to make yourself feel better. At some point you will say I am not part of that but I love my country.

remark: Now, of course that is just sarcasm on my part. I hope noone really thinks like that of willx - its easy to misunderstand each other because of talking at cross-purposes - coloring the others words with our own bias.

Last edited by Jinto; 2012-12-03 at 17:59.
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Old 2012-12-03, 16:39   Link #128
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
@ArchmageXin

I guess willx is more interested in white washing what happened in Iraq, because people in the USA learned to see themselves as heroes and liberators (because of the propa... uhm patriotic media landscape).
Can you imagine how horrible that is, when you realize that the liberator image does not quite match the reality? You start to search for excuses. You try to find worse examples to make yourself feel better. At some point you will say I am not part of that but I love my country.

remark: Now, of course that is just sarcasm on my part, but at the same time it has an element of thruth.
Wow, that's more than a little inflammatory. I'm a skeptic that's just trying to point out logical flaws. My specialty is economics and financial markets. I'm not a "superfan" of the U.S. at all. I'm also Canadian. Iraq was an incredibly stupid move. I was actually a huge fan of keeping Saddam in power to continue to oppress the fundamentalists there. Getting rid of Gaddafi was also dumb, but led by EU (not including Germany). Germany benefited massively from the EU .. up until the structure fell apart. Dumb structure to begin with. World is both simple and complicated folks.

There are no "good guys" in this world my friend. Anyone that thinks of themselves as one is fooling themselves. Now that I've been accused of something that is impossible for me to actually be - I will make my exit.

Reply hazy, ask again later
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Old 2012-12-03, 16:51   Link #129
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
Wow, that's more than a little inflammatory. I'm a skeptic that's just trying to point out logical flaws. My specialty is economics and financial markets. I'm not a "superfan" of the U.S. at all. I'm also Canadian. Iraq was an incredibly stupid move. I was actually a huge fan of keeping Saddam in power to continue to oppress the fundamentalists there. Getting rid of Gaddafi was also dumb, but led by EU (not including Germany). Germany benefited massively from the EU .. up until the structure fell apart. Dumb structure to begin with. World is both simple and complicated folks.

There are no "good guys" in this world my friend. Anyone that thinks of themselves as one is fooling themselves. Now that I've been accused of something that is impossible for me to actually be - I will make my exit.

Reply hazy, ask again later
If you thought you were the target of the sarcasm, you misunderstood something.

Okay, short explanation: I just exagerated the image someone might have of you. At the same time I willingly falsified your nationality to give it more punch (sorry for that).
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Old 2012-12-03, 16:54   Link #130
ArchmageXin
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Quote:
I'd say an economic invasion is still an actual invasion.
In that case, global trade should all cease to exist then.

Quote:
China offering to buy oil assets from Canada should also elicit a response that considers factors beyond economics. It should factor in strategic considerations. It's that simple.
Because China is going to strangulate Canada with a couple sub-par oil fields right? What major are you in again? You realize if war really starts, Canada can send up the monties (or whatever you pass for police) and re-nationalize the oil fields right?

I would be more concerned if BP brought the oil than COCC....after all, China don't have a track record of regime change if the local government impose labor laws.

Quote:
In your crazy example: If the U.S. ever sent us a threatening letter saying they want our oilsands for nominal consideration, we'd have to figure out a response - petition NATO, find allies, determine cost of conflict, apply political pressure, negotiate in the best interests of the nation, etc etc. Strategic considerations.
And at the end of the day, hand off the place without serious consideration. BTW, the Pentagon has a war plan to crush Canada, the PLA don't.

Quote:
Side Bar -- Your thinking still seems to be of an Imperialistic standpoint. Point is, the U.S. would actually never do it. In a modern world, conquering a place to secure assets isn't economically feasible -- what do you think happened to Spain's economy with the influx of South American gold?
I thought we couldn't bring up pre-late 20th century examples? Plus, Spain couldn't figure out what to do with a massive gold wealth, that is their own problem...

Quote:
Second Side Bar -- I don't want to get in to this on a thread like this, but what do you think Economics and Capitalism even is? They are respectively: 1) A study and discipline on the allocation of scarce resources and 2) It's fundamentally just a crowdsourcing mechanism to allocate the productive capacity of a society. It's efficient and inefficient in different ways and has certain flaws and weaknesses. Why do states tax companies in the first place? Heck, why do corporations have a mandate to earn profits? Think on this, do the research, we can continue these conversations in private if necessary.
In the end, you believe China's willingness to purchase an Canadian oil firm with subpar oil source to be a sinister security threat, but see nothing wrong with American invasion of Iraq. Case closed.
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Old 2012-12-03, 17:12   Link #131
willx
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Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
If you thought you were the target of the sarcasm, you misunderstood something.
Apparently I did misunderstand. Re-reading your comment, I can see where you were heading, albeit it was initially not evident to me. Be more obvious! If I didn't get it other people might not get it as well!

Anyways, we've strayed dangerously off topic, and now I'm being questioned intellectually and professionally about a field in which I studied and am currently employed in .. and people tell me I'm a professional in. Right. OK. So as I said I was going to exit, I leave this that Ithkero mentioned earlier (and was similarly mentioned in another thread):

Indian navy prepared to deploy to South China Sea to protect oil interests

http://news.yahoo.com/indian-navy-pr...140347282.html

Outlook remains uncertain
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Old 2012-12-03, 17:16   Link #132
KiraYamatoFan
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My two cents in this is that no one, and I mean NO ONE, should have ever made business with the PRC after what happened in 1989 at Tiananmen Square. The Tiananmen incidents should have been the last straw and the perfect excuse for everyone to cut all diplomatic and business ties with PRC as much as everything was shut down with the Apartheid oppressing blacks in the 1970s... the perfect proof that nothing is gained from doing business with such government until the prople overthrow it by all means.

The West might have created a monster, but I wouldn't mind stopping global trade in the sense that the PRC can still be isolated while business is done elsewhere. Follow the German model (where most things are not made in China at all over there) and everything should be fine.

By the way, screw Stephen Harper for selling those oil fields to China! This piece of trash should be beaten to oblivion for what he did to Canada.
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Old 2012-12-03, 17:35   Link #133
ArchmageXin
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Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
My two cents in this is that no one, and I mean NO ONE, should have ever made business with the PRC after what happened in 1989 at Tiananmen Square. The Tiananmen incidents should have been the last straw and the perfect excuse for everyone to cut all diplomatic and business ties with PRC as much as everything was shut down with the Apartheid oppressing blacks in the 1970s... the perfect proof that nothing is gained from doing business with such government until the prople overthrow it by all means.

The West might have created a monster, but I wouldn't mind stopping global trade in the sense that the PRC can still be isolated while business is done elsewhere. Follow the German model (where most things are not made in China at all over there) and everything should be fine.

By the way, screw Stephen Harper for selling those oil fields to China! This piece of trash should be beaten to oblivion for what he did to Canada.
Armed suppression = complete international isolation?

Then the world has to cut ties to

Israel
Korea (SOUTH)
Taiwan
India
Pakistan
Russia
Ukraine
Saudis
Brahain
Bruhma

And that is just top of my head a list of countries that used the army to crush internal opposition. Tell me which one of those are "Isolated"

The west is just sour grapes because

1) China since then turned it self around from a fail state to superpower.

2) America installed and backed the wrong murderous dictator and failed.
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Old 2012-12-04, 03:03   Link #134
aohige
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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
Then....we shouldn't be worried about PLA at that point, we should be investing in our supreme communist overlords.


Was that last line sarcasm, or are you waving a red flag....here?
I'm hoping for the former.
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Old 2012-12-04, 09:26   Link #135
ArchmageXin
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Was that last line sarcasm, or are you waving a red flag....here?
I'm hoping for the former.
It is the sarcasm.

Sumagi claimed PLA have their own source of revenue that is "independent" of the state. And thus they can go rogue and fuck around with the world with no oversight.

I simply pointed out in order to be independent of a budget 160 billion (and that is the paranoid estimate of the Pentagon), PLA would need corporations capable of generating revenues to match Google, Microsoft, Apple, Goldman Saches, Boeing, and the entire U.S military defense complex.

Those little two dime companies wouldn't hold up water to that idea...at all.

If the PLA is really such an amazing money generator to match the crown jewels of the U.S technology, investment and military industries COMBINED, they clearly we ought be investing in them....
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Old 2012-12-04, 09:32   Link #136
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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
Sumagi claimed PLA have their own source of revenue that is "independent" of the state. And thus they can go rogue and fuck around with the world with no oversight.
I'm pretty sure I haven't said the former. In fact, this is what I said, in quoting you:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
Seriously, if anyone is known for a large defense budgets, the PLA are a bunch of frugal monks compared to the gluttonous devour of funds known as Pentagon.
You forgot: The PLA have their own corporations and companies making cash for them. They don't need to rely on the budget from the central government as most militaries. That's why they're more dangerous than most people think: the military is semi-autonomous from the state.
I used comparatives to say that the PLA is not as under the command of the civilian government as most militaries are liable to be, contrary to your assumption (which I would have said "like" instead of "as"). You've basically been engaging in strawman arguments this whole time.
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Old 2012-12-04, 09:53   Link #137
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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
If the PLA is really such an amazing money generator to match the crown jewels of the U.S technology, investment and military industries COMBINED, they clearly we ought be investing in them....
Sounds to me like Sumeragi is simply making a mechanical distinction, while you're making a statistical comparison, which is not a fair argument to his.
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Old 2012-12-04, 10:05   Link #138
ArchmageXin
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I'm pretty sure I haven't said the former. In fact, this is what I said, in quoting you:




I used comparatives to say that the PLA is not as under the command of the civilian government as most militaries are liable to be, contrary to your assumption (which I would have said "like" instead of "as"). You've basically been engaging in strawman arguments this whole time.
Strawman? I just refuted that all those companies you named, to be some super-PLA money generator that can let the military get off government hook, then proceed to start a war or something. I pointed out their revenue would be mere mils (not even pennies!) on the dollar.

You are the guy who claimed Everbright and those companies are PLA fronts, and all I brought up was Huawei, which is currently getting an hard-on by the Republicans, claiming them to be some kind of spy network because their founder was a former PLA engineer.

You throw out random names and rumors, I come back after reading their actual history and in certain cases, financial filling at stock exchanges.

So come on man! Bring out more companies of suspected PLA money generators. We can have a economical analysis of their feasibly right here on the spot.
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Old 2012-12-04, 10:14   Link #139
Sumeragi
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If you can't see the point of what I'm saying (PLA is not as dependent on the government to the extent of most militaries, and has leverage to be semi-autonomous) and insist on some "economical analysis" in comparing incomparable entities while not taking into consideration the social-political factors, then there is no use in talking to you. Everything I said is laid out, so try thinking.
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Old 2012-12-04, 10:16   Link #140
ArchmageXin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I'm pretty sure I haven't said the former. In fact, this is what I said, in quoting you:




I used comparatives to say that the PLA is not as under the command of the civilian government as most militaries are liable to be, contrary to your assumption (which I would have said "like" instead of "as"). You've basically been engaging in strawman arguments this whole time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Sounds to me like Sumeragi is simply making a mechanical distinction, while you're making a statistical comparison, which is not a fair argument to his.
Then how should I respond? Take his fact-less innuendos as face value?

Should I start suggesting U.S Government is beholden to Martians based on Area-51 cover ups?

Also, U.S military are known for selling weapons to murders, rapists and kidnappers. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair
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