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Old 2012-12-04, 10:20   Link #141
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
Also, U.S military are known for selling weapons to murders, rapists and kidnappers. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair
You know, given that the operation you brought up was formulated by the National Security Council (as in the US government), not sure what your point is except to throw around irrelevant information to muddle the discussion.
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Old 2012-12-04, 10:22   Link #142
ArchmageXin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
If you can't see the point of what I'm saying (PLA is not as dependent on the government to the extent of most militaries, and has leverage to be semi-autonomous) and insist on some "economical analysis" in comparing incomparable entities while not taking into consideration the social-political factors, then there is no use in talking to you. Everything I said is laid out, so try thinking.
You should try thinking. You named companies that are not even associated with the PLA (Only one on your list that came close is that body armor marker that is barely qualified because it was originally established by military logistics, and is using PLA as a BRANDING decision), rest are SOEs or even completely private companies.

EVEN IF THEY ARE PLA front money machines, they couldn't possibility generate enough money to make the PLA independent of the government. Social political factors, what social political factors?
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Old 2012-12-04, 10:23   Link #143
aohige
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Making a direct statistical comparison between two mechanism clearly stated to operate differently, with one being dangerously independent in its source of resource from political field, you're not playing on the same debating field at all.
That's what Sumeragi's saying.

And you're also throwing around completely irrelevant, random rants to his discussion in attempt to paint the American military as evildoers, when that's not entirely the point of discussion.

Or at least, that's what I see. I could be missing something here.
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Old 2012-12-04, 10:25   Link #144
ArchmageXin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
You know, given that the operation you brought up was formulated by the National Security Council (as in the US government), not sure what your point is except to throw around irrelevant information to muddle the discussion.
See this thing called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boland_Amendment ?

That is approved by the U.S Congress.

The CIA, apparently decide to flaunt the wishes of the Congress and kept on selling weapons to terrorists.

How is that for independence?
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Old 2012-12-04, 10:28   Link #145
Sumeragi
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And is the CIA part of the US military?
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Old 2012-12-04, 10:33   Link #146
ArchmageXin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Making a direct statistical comparison between two mechanism clearly stated to operate differently, with one being dangerously independent in its source of resource from political field, you're not playing on the same debating field at all.
That's what Sumeragi's saying.

And you're also throwing around completely irrelevant, random rants to his discussion in attempt to paint the American military as evildoers, when that's not entirely the point of discussion.

Or at least, that's what I see. I could be missing something here.
I am not painting anything at all. I am just pointing out the PLA is unlikely to be able to say, suddenly march off and invade Japan or attack America without Bejing's consent. (I.E Rogue Army theory). The economic proof shows there is no way, even if they starve the troops and sold off all the equipments, and be able to replace the government budget.

Having a few corporations remotely (even if vaguely) linked with the PLA does not mean PLA can freely do what it wants. China still remember the days of Warlordism, and Bejing holds a close rein to the military.

As for Oliver North/Iran Contra, I just pointed out if Sumagi is so high on paranoid military theory, then there is a close example at home.

Last edited by ArchmageXin; 2012-12-04 at 10:44.
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Old 2012-12-04, 10:34   Link #147
Sumeragi
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Who in this discussion had been mentioning anything about the PLA going rogue except you?
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Old 2012-12-04, 10:35   Link #148
ArchmageXin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
And is the CIA part of the US military?
So it is a rogue force not under the oversight of U.S government but funded by them? Oh well the people of the world can sleep better now. Those poor kids in Pakastan are having their families blown away by a civilian agency...
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Old 2012-12-04, 10:43   Link #149
ArchmageXin
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Who in this discussion had been mentioning anything about the PLA going rogue except you?
You said PLA can be independent of Cent Gov. So logically, given this is a "how terrible China is" thread, by logic imply they can do a whole lot of badass stuff to world security.

I just showed whatever the PLA can do "independently" probably amount to zero and nill.
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Old 2012-12-04, 10:43   Link #150
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CIA is a spy organization, an agency of the US government.
They are not affiliated with the military, nor do they have a shared jurisdiction.

A completely separate entity.
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Old 2012-12-04, 10:49   Link #151
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
You said PLA can be independent of Cent Gov. So logically, given this is a "how terrible China is" thread, by logic imply they can do a whole lot of badass stuff to world security.

I just showed whatever the PLA can do "independently" probably amount to zero and nill.
Semi-autonomous =/= Independent. Furthermore, that discussion came out because of people being worried that the PLA might have more influence on foreign policy than it appears on the surface, not that the PLA can go and do its own stuff disregarding government policy.

You really need to read, or not get into discussions without having any idea what you're talking about.
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Old 2012-12-04, 11:03   Link #152
ArchmageXin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Semi-autonomous =/= Independent. Furthermore, that discussion came out because of people being worried that the PLA might have more influence on foreign policy than it appears on the surface, not that the PLA can go and do its own stuff disregarding government policy.

You really need to read, or not get into discussions without having any idea what you're talking about.
They are not even close to semi-autonomous.

Having some companies allegedly to be linked to the PLA =/= Actively making a difference.

Furthermore, if PLA is really flushing with cash in investments, they would be actively promoting world peace than the other way around. After all, that body armor maker of yours would go bankrupt if it get blown away by a Hellfire missile. The Investment Bank busy buying up Canadian oil assets would be less inclined to fire missiles at the Tar Sands.

Unlike...say, U.S Defense companies, who would actively benefit if violence broke out.
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Old 2012-12-04, 11:40   Link #153
ArchmageXin
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The only thing I can truly allow is PLA actively lobby the Chinese Government for additional funds, on the grounds of national defense.

Like the Pentagon, PLA recognize the fact if universal peace break out, military budgets would be the first to go.

So it would actively produce reports to suggest China is way behind in term of military expenditure, and surrounded by wolves at the border and barbarians at the gates.

And hence, military budget go up.
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Old 2012-12-08, 00:32   Link #154
SoldierOfDarkness
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Was referred to this thread by Willx.

I'm just going to put my 2 cents here.

As the president of the Union in 00 stated, "Each and every country intervenes in the affairs of other countries for their own purpose and to protect their civilians...there's no such thing as good will"

For example, why does everyone invade Afghanistan? Almost every nation in the past has invaded it at one point in time (Alexander, Chinese, Ghenghis Khan, etc.). The reason was because Afghanistan was the McDonalds of Asia. You control it you have access to almost anywhere else in Asia.

The South China Seas is an area that is rich in resources and shipping lanes so yeah everybody including the birds and bees are going to try to gain as much stake in it as they can. Would they go to war? No, in a global economy where everybody is tied together they will never risk that, especially with nuclear weapons. The world is in need of Energy and because both India and China are still developing countries they need to secure as many energy resources as possible to feed themselves. That's the harsh reality. Imagine what'll happen when the African Continent gets on board and starts developing at the same pace.

This is the exact same thing except we're a bit more civilized and aren't going in with guns blazing. All of the small guys know that they can't match China but at the same time China doesn't want to push too far as war is bad for business.

I should also point out because the United States has naval assets operating in the area the Chinese will want to try to stake out as much as possible to protect themselves. Don't forget that Obama is establishing a new marine base in Australia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
My two cents in this is that no one, and I mean NO ONE, should have ever made business with the PRC after what happened in 1989 at Tiananmen Square. The Tiananmen incidents should have been the last straw and the perfect excuse for everyone to cut all diplomatic and business ties with PRC as much as everything was shut down with the Apartheid oppressing blacks in the 1970s... the perfect proof that nothing is gained from doing business with such government until the prople overthrow it by all means.
Typical.

By that logic we should've cut all ties with the US when the National Guard massacre those students back in the 80's.

Quote:
By the way, screw Stephen Harper for selling those oil fields to China! This piece of trash should be beaten to oblivion for what he did to Canada.
This people is a prime example of ignorance. The oil sands belong to the CROWN. Anybody, even Canadians, who drill and extract the oil and set up operations must apply and pay for a lease to do so and pay their taxes and royalties on it.

Nexen itself is a gas and exploratory company. That and Nexen operations includes less than 1% of the oil sands, as Trudeau would put it it's hardly a national security risk and as Redford put it bluntly, Alberta has wealth because tons of foreign businesses set up shop there. (About 78% of the oilsands are foreign owned so where were you when those ones were being "Sold" off to other nations?).

For someone from Montreal you sure seem to have a huge amount of interest in Alberta and unless you're working for an engineering firm that's somewhat tied here you seem to be sprouting an awful amount of nonsence.
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Old 2012-12-08, 00:52   Link #155
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
The South China Seas is an area that is rich in resources and shipping lanes so yeah everybody including the birds and bees are going to try to gain as much stake in it as they can. Would they go to war? No, in a global economy where everybody is tied together they will never risk that, especially with nuclear weapons. The world is in need of Energy and because both India and China are still developing countries they need to secure as many energy resources as possible to feed themselves.
Under this logic WWI would had never happen but it did. I think we are seeing a copy/paste scenario of WWI, we will see for some years many diplomatic and military movements (to test the mettle of everyone else in the area) until one ridiculous incident lights the fuze. BTW, the military nowadays likes to talk about "tactical warheads", powerful enough to destroy an enemy fleet but small enough to make the gullible think they are just very big bombs.
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Old 2012-12-08, 00:54   Link #156
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
Under this logic WWI would had never happen but it did. I think we are seeing a copy/paste scenario of WWI, we will see for some years many diplomatic and military movements (to test the mettle of everyone else in the area) until one ridiculous incident lights the fuze. BTW, the military nowadays likes to talk about "tactical warheads", powerful enough to destroy an enemy fleet but small enough to make the gullible think they are just very big bombs.
No I don't think we'll ever see something on the likes of WWI mainly because we already went through that hell and nobody wants to go to ther again.

Plus WWI started because one guy assassinated another guy and next thing you know everybody that formed an alliance wants to get in on that. WWI taught the dangers of such a thing.

Quote:
As much as some peoples' opinions may be offensive to you -- why are any of your opinions that much more valid? Ultimately, I can only inform, there are real concerns that exist and they are not based on prejudice or malice.
Because throughout my life I've seen all types of crap throughout the world as I travelled to the US, Mexico, East Germany, China, Hong Kong, England, South Africa, etc.

At that point I realized that everybody is a liar and a hypocrite so I've accepted the fact that every nation is only looking out for themselves which is the case here which is my point. The South China Seas are an important asset and nobody can argue otherwise so it's obvious that everybody is going to do what they can to get a piece of it. Canada is already having issues with Russia over the Artic circle yet I don't see you bringing anything up about that.

Therefore it's ridiculous for someone to talk about how great the US is and that they'll come in and defeat the evil Chinese like the guardian angels they are and vice versa. It makes me sick because the US isn't doing it out of the goodness of their heart but they're doing it for their own interests yet people will believe that.

Last edited by SoldierOfDarkness; 2012-12-08 at 01:25.
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Old 2012-12-08, 01:01   Link #157
Ithekro
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That and the economies of the day were not as intertwined as they are now. Part of the globalism goal is to make it uneconomical for the local powers to go to war with each other, as they would soon lose vital materials they don't have or manpower they don't have because it is provided by their "enemy".

Europe is so entangled that it is almost impossible for there to be a way for them to go to war with each other anymore (like they did since at least Roman times).
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Old 2012-12-08, 01:18   Link #158
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
That and the economies of the day were not as intertwined as they are now. Part of the globalism goal is to make it uneconomical for the local powers to go to war with each other, as they would soon lose vital materials
China has already blocked export of rare earth metals and when world oil reserves start to decline you can bet the USA will hog oil exports (they blocked oil to japan before WWII and we know what happened next) which will make whatever oil reserve that region has into strategical reserves.
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Old 2012-12-08, 02:06   Link #159
KiraYamatoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
China has already blocked export of rare earth metals and when world oil reserves start to decline you can bet the USA will hog oil exports (they blocked oil to japan before WWII and we know what happened next) which will make whatever oil reserve that region has into strategical reserves.
The scenario from Call of Duty: Black Ops II doesn't sound too farfetched after all. By letting China controlling the entire rare earth element market and now more oil reserves, the entire world economy is running towards a wall and God knows what would happen next on foreign politics as a result.

To close down the subject of oil reserves (and also rare earth metals from mines in Quebec), the Canadian government should have found a way to nationalize the whole shit at home or find ways to keep it safe within our hands instead of selling it to companies mostly owned by China. If anyone thinks that the sale to China doesn't represent a risk to national security, that person is deluded when all signs are pointing towards Cold War II minimum at this rate. For the record, the arms race has already begun and I find it hard to believe this is something you can hide under the rug considering how they started by having a shot at Japan and the Philippines.

I only wish Germans and Japanese are more involved on this rare earth materials market as more trustworthy clients if any. At least, they are not at risk with a military force getting greedier and earning more funds every year passing by.

Last edited by KiraYamatoFan; 2012-12-08 at 02:16. Reason: changed a few phrases
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Old 2012-12-08, 02:54   Link #160
Kokukirin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
The scenario from Call of Duty: Black Ops II doesn't sound too farfetched after all. By letting China controlling the entire rare earth element market and now more oil reserves, the entire world economy is running towards a wall and God knows what would happen next on foreign politics as a result.

To close down the subject of oil reserves (and also rare earth metals from mines in Quebec), the Canadian government should have found a way to nationalize the whole shit at home or find ways to keep it safe within our hands instead of selling it to companies mostly owned by China. If anyone thinks that the sale to China doesn't represent a risk to national security, that person is deluded when all signs are pointing towards Cold War II minimum at this rate. For the record, the arms race has already begun and I find it hard to believe this is something you can hide under the rug considering how they started by having a shot at Japan and the Philippines.

I only wish Germans and Japanese are more involved on this rare earth materials market as more trustworthy clients if any. At least, they are not at risk with a military force getting greedier and earning more funds every year passing by.
Yeah, considering nationalizing natural resources have such a wonderful record all across the world, I wonder why Canada doesn't nationalize its oil sands and timber and all sorts minerals.

Ok seriously.

I can see selling telecom to Chinese companies a security risk. The Chinese are long known for spying and hacking all across the world, even if they deny it. Giving them the control of telecom infrastructure means they get to be the middleman of communications inside the US.

But I don't see a similar risk for oil and minerals. The natural resources will still remain where they are. Whoever operates them are subject to the same laws and regulations. And in the unfortunate scenario where the West and China enter another cold war, Canadian government still holds the final power to take the ownership back, or at least ban exports to China.
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