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Old 2012-12-03, 17:48   Link #24941
Jinto
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
A interesting reading: As Companies Seek Tax Deals, Governments Pay High Price
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/us...ions.html?_r=0
The multinationals neither care about local or national tax. And on the national tax level, there exist tax evading schemes that makes them pay like 2 to 5% in income tax.

Only an international effort that levels the playing field could provide the means to make them pay more taxes. However, the own interests of the very nations that could benefit from a concerted approach, stands in the way of getting there. Every nation wants to outsmart the others... in the end they all loose - being outsmarted by multinational corporations (this applies also for states on national level and cities on state level).
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Old 2012-12-03, 18:22   Link #24942
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Old 2012-12-04, 10:20   Link #24943
TinyRedLeaf
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This is unexpected:

Paying for sex: Women's groups call for EU-wide ban
Quote:
Brussels (Dec 4, Tue): More than 200 women's rights groups are calling for laws to make paying for sex a crime across the European Union. Campaigners will present key policy recommendations for legislation to MEPs in Brussels tomorrow.

"Prostitution is a form of violence, an obstacle to gender equality and an open door for organised crime to develop," a campaign spokeswoman told the BBC. But opponents say the move is likely to drive the prostitution industry further underground.

The European Women's Lobby, which leads the campaign, wants EU member states to implement six key policies, including the criminalisation of all forms of procuring, and the creation of effective exit programmes for sex workers.

"The most important thing to understand about prostitution is that imposing sexual intercourse with money is a form of violence that shouldn't be accepted," EWL spokeswoman Pierrette Pape told the BBC.

"If we understand that, we can then put comprehensive policies into place that will change mentalities and respect gender equality between women and men."

BBC
I once argued about the harm caused by pornography and prostitution, in my usual habit of playing devil's advocate. I didn't expect the argument to become a reality. I have to say, these women have balls for trying to change the world's oldest profession.
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Old 2012-12-04, 10:21   Link #24944
Sumeragi
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And one that will fail miserably. Talk about stupidity on a massive scale.
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Old 2012-12-04, 10:27   Link #24945
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
I once argued about the harm caused by pornography and prostitution, in my usual habit of playing devil's advocate. I didn't expect the argument to become a reality. I have to say, these women have balls for trying to change the world's oldest profession.
Actually I've mentioned this before, but there have been studies that have shown:
1) People are less sensitive to scenes of gore or violence after being exposed to pornography
2) There has been a higher incidence of erectile dysfunction among young men who consume significant amounts of pornography

Apparently there's a part of the brain, that for a lack of a better example, gets acclimated to the intensity of the stimulus. Reminds me of issues that heroine addicts apparently experience..

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Old 2012-12-04, 10:32   Link #24946
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
Actually I've mentioned this before, but there have been studies that have shown:
1) People are less sensitive to scenes of gore or violence after being exposed to pornography
2) There has been a higher incidence of erectile dysfunction among young men who consume significant amounts of pornography

Apparently there's a part of the brain, that for a lack of a better example, gets acclimated to the intensity of the stimulus. Reminds me of issues that heroine addicts apparently experience...
The harm I argued about was more abstract, and closer to what the women's groups are concerned about. Basically, we're talking about an industry that turns women into objects and sexual commodities. (Have to say, though, if the women's groups are serious about gender equality, they should speak up for homosexual prostitutes too.) I argued that pornography harms human dignity and used the point to demonstrate... ah, never mind. It was a highly emotive debate that I would rather not rehash.
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Old 2012-12-04, 11:44   Link #24947
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RRW View Post
YouTube
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Stopped listening after "Putin has been killing our muslim brothers in Chechnya"

All hail your muslim brothers from Chechnya, who are fighting in Syria as mercenaries now. Stupid people.
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Old 2012-12-04, 12:02   Link #24948
ganbaru
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Who Let This Man Die on the Subway?
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/natio...-subway/59600/
Quote:
There's one big question about today's intense cover of the New York Post: Why didn't anyone help him? If there's enough time to capture a dying man's last moments before getting hit by an oncoming train that's that worthy of a tabloid cover, couldn't the photographer have lent a hand?
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Old 2012-12-04, 12:21   Link #24949
KiraYamatoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
This is unexpected:

Paying for sex: Women's groups call for EU-wide ban

I once argued about the harm caused by pornography and prostitution, in my usual habit of playing devil's advocate. I didn't expect the argument to become a reality. I have to say, these women have balls for trying to change the world's oldest profession.
And so far, we have excellent results in solving prostitution in Sweden by attacking the 2 other branches of the prostitution triad (i.e. clients and pimps) while offering prostitutes services to get psychological help as well as programs to get them back on track with normal employment.

Honestly, those women are right to ask something such as this and I hope they will end up succeeding in Europe. Right now, there's also the issue of human trafficking that has to stop and having such ban would be a major help.
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Old 2012-12-04, 12:32   Link #24950
Zakoo
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Let's continue on the sophism more, next we ban build related work cause there's no women inside and it's an obstacle of gender equality?

Ridiculous argumentation imho, it's true there's gender inequality, but I highly doubt prostitution is the main factor.

Let alone the fact no state should impose his view on how women use their vagin, breats or whatever, women should be free to use it as they want it, it goes for both IVG or selling their body.

What society truly needs to do is indeed, fighting against big human traffick networks that bring east european women in west because it's their sole chance of living, and the second on a farther view is to make sure women have other possibilities than selling their body to get a living.

But banning prostitution ... really?
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Old 2012-12-04, 12:42   Link #24951
willx
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^ Now now, labeling it sophism is kind of .. inflammatory right?

It's about where the social consensus is at the moment with regards to regulation and rights, etc etc. There are restrictions on tobacco and alcohol, there are restrictions on underage "relations" there are all kinds of restrictions on what you can or can't do with your own body already -- to say otherwise is to pick and choose your arguments to fit your viewpoint.

Ultimately I agree it's better to treat root causes than try to legislate your way into the desired outcomes, but let's not utterly dismiss their position as nonsense. That said, it'll never pass, so this is probably just a grab for press "mindspace"

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Old 2012-12-04, 12:44   Link #24952
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Mortar attack on school outside Damascus 'kills 29'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20596612
Quote:
At least 28 students and a teacher were killed when a shell hit a school outside the Syrian capital, Damascus, state media and activists say.

The official Sana news agency said the Batiha school in the al-Wafidin camp, about 20km (15 miles) north-east of the capital, was hit by rebel mortar fire.
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Old 2012-12-04, 13:11   Link #24953
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
The harm I argued about was more abstract, and closer to what the women's groups are concerned about. Basically, we're talking about an industry that turns women into objects and sexual commodities. (Have to say, though, if the women's groups are serious about gender equality, they should speak up for homosexual prostitutes too.) I argued that pornography harms human dignity and used the point to demonstrate... ah, never mind. It was a highly emotive debate that I would rather not rehash.
Women are definitely made into sexual objects, no argument there. However simply banning things doesn't make them go away, and can even make matters worse. I personally don't have a problem with people selling themselves for sex, but I think the number of women and men who genuinely desire such a profession are comparatively small to the overall population. For women (and some men), it's simply the easiest path to lots of money in societies were other professions just aren't as easy to come by, or aren't as lucrative for the time spent. There is also the social pressure of money being the end game of sorts, and the road to buying into status. It's one of the reasons things like enjo kosai even exist, because there is pressure in having money to buy expensive products to fit into certain social groups where status is dictated by what you own and not who you are.

In any case, more emphasis should be placed on improving economic and social prospects so that things like prostitution and trafficking aren't so tempting. Unfortunately these are systemic issues that require changes which aren't so easily done, but regardless of anyone's personal feelings on the matter, people in the current world are still going to pay for sex, and people are willing to provide it, and banning it won't amount to anything more than a feel good law that doesn't solve anything in the long term. It just strikes me as puritanical wishful thinking.
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Old 2012-12-04, 14:44   Link #24954
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Ah, Sweden. The country of banning, political correctness and being a role model for everyone. Whether they want it or not.

It pretty much blew up for a little while in the media here, too, and the general response is a massive sigh, for reasons already stated.
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Old 2012-12-04, 14:52   Link #24955
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What happen to the Nordic Vikings, the pillagers of Europe? The Worshipers of Odin and Thor? Bewoulf would weep seeing his descendents today.
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Old 2012-12-04, 14:52   Link #24956
ChainLegacy
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Join Date: Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
The harm I argued about was more abstract, and closer to what the women's groups are concerned about. Basically, we're talking about an industry that turns women into objects and sexual commodities. (Have to say, though, if the women's groups are serious about gender equality, they should speak up for homosexual prostitutes too.) I argued that pornography harms human dignity and used the point to demonstrate... ah, never mind. It was a highly emotive debate that I would rather not rehash.
There's probably much more harm done than good in the case of prostitution, but I was watching the National Geographic series "Taboo" on the subject of prostitution a few months back and they were interviewing high-end escorts in Australia. The women made a pretty strong case for how they liked their job and felt empowered... I suppose they could be convincing themselves that for the convenience, but it makes me think this is more of a grey area than one might at first assume.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
What happen to the Nordic Vikings, the pillagers of Europe? The Worshipers of Odin and Thor? Bewoulf would weep seeing his descendents today.
They all left the country! Their descendents are scattered across the realms of their pillaging and in Iceland.
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Old 2012-12-04, 14:56   Link #24957
Anh_Minh
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
Let's continue on the sophism more, next we ban build related work cause there's no women inside and it's an obstacle of gender equality?
You're being disingenuous by calling it a matter of gender equality. Yes, it's more of a problem for women than men, like domestic violence. That's not why it's under fire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Women are definitely made into sexual objects, no argument there. However simply banning things doesn't make them go away, and can even make matters worse. I personally don't have a problem with people selling themselves for sex, but I think the number of women and men who genuinely desire such a profession are comparatively small to the overall population. For women (and some men), it's simply the easiest path to lots of money in societies were other professions just aren't as easy to come by, or aren't as lucrative for the time spent. There is also the social pressure of money being the end game of sorts, and the road to buying into status. It's one of the reasons things like enjo kosai even exist, because there is pressure in having money to buy expensive products to fit into certain social groups where status is dictated by what you own and not who you are.
Forget "lots", it's a path to "some" money. We've all got bills to pay, and not all of us are lucky enough to have more respectable, enjoyable, safer jobs.

Quote:
In any case, more emphasis should be placed on improving economic and social prospects so that things like prostitution and trafficking aren't so tempting. Unfortunately these are systemic issues that require changes which aren't so easily done, but regardless of anyone's personal feelings on the matter, people in the current world are still going to pay for sex, and people are willing to provide it, and banning it won't amount to anything more than a feel good law that doesn't solve anything in the long term. It just strikes me as puritanical wishful thinking.
It might still be worthwhile to shrink the market. If we can do it. On the cheap.

Then again... generally speaking, prostitutes are unfortunate enough that they have to, well, be prostitutes to earn a living. They really don't need to deal with more crap, IMO.
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Old 2012-12-04, 14:57   Link #24958
Jinto
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What I see as more important in this discussion about the merits of a prostitution ban is a clear differentation between forced prostitution which is typical for organized crime and... for a lack of a better term lets call it home grown prostitution akin to a one person business model.
The forced prostitution is done in a way that prostitutes are trapped inside the business. This is akin to slavery.

Now, the gender equality argument is a really stupid one, since it implies, in a sense, that someone who sells his/her body to make a living and it is their own decission... that these people must be of lower social standing. This in itself shows how bigoted these so called women rights activists actually are.

I wonder what they want to regulate next in the name of gender equality... men are not allowed to give girl friends presents and have sexual intercourse in the next three days, because it is so similar to prostitution.

Anyway, I agree, that there must be (enforcable) rules that protect the people involved in prostitution. Its a very delicate decission to prostitute oneself. It must always be possible for such people to return to a life without prostitution.

And of course this will require, that the image of prostitution is better. Currently the image of prostitution alone causes a vicious circle, because the stigma of that business makes finding normal work almost impossible.
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Old 2012-12-04, 15:51   Link #24959
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Now, the gender equality argument is a really stupid one,
OK, but who uses it? Except as a Straw Man?
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Old 2012-12-04, 15:59   Link #24960
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
What happen to the Nordic Vikings, the pillagers of Europe? The Worshipers of Odin and Thor? Bewoulf would weep seeing his descendents today.
They turned from Odin to Jesus and they followed it a bit more than many other.
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