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Old 2012-12-04, 15:38   Link #1461
Asuras
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Not really, you're straying into the realm of pure fiction there. It's not just about balance and movement, to do what you said would require massive advances in material science, engineering and energy generation/storage.

Also, a tank doesn't need to pick up a magazine to reload itself in the first place, it's stored internally. If you were alluding to the super-sized rifles used by mechs in animes, that's a whole other can of yea-not-really-practical worm.

Another thing, it seems like people are only applying advances in technology to the mechs, but not the tanks. You can have your bipedal giant rifle toting mech, I'll raise you a railgun/gauss rifle hovertank with a bank of missile launchers
It seems to me your forgetting that we're taking into consideration that we already have this level of technology. I mean saying, "Well we don't have that kind of technology," doesn't mean anything when we're talking about the advantages of a potential future mecha system. It'd be like saying we shouldn't have believed VTOL was a good idea because at the time it was implausible.

In any case, a bank of missile launchers is nothing special, and hovering wouldn't change many things I offered the mecha would be capable of.
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Old 2012-12-04, 16:08   Link #1462
Ithekro
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Large powered infantry. Would get around the power cel problems of the human sided Power Armor suits.

I am more inclided to head the Arm Slave route than anything else. (though the novel version are shorter than the anime versions).
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Old 2012-12-04, 16:14   Link #1463
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuras View Post
It seems to me your forgetting that we're taking into consideration that we already have this level of technology. I mean saying, "Well we don't have that kind of technology," doesn't mean anything when we're talking about the advantages of a potential future mecha system. It'd be like saying we shouldn't have believed VTOL was a good idea because at the time it was implausible.

In any case, a bank of missile launchers is nothing special, and hovering wouldn't change many things I offered the mecha would be capable of.
It would solve a lot of the mobility problem.

His point is that, while 30th century mecha would beat 20th century tank, it wouldn't beat 30th century tank. At equal technology level and equal weight, a humanoid mecha is just a bigger, weaker target than a tank. And no more likely to dodge anti-tank weaponry than a flesh and blood human is to dodge bullets. (Both happen in anime. I don't think you'll see a lot of either IRL.)
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Old 2012-12-04, 16:28   Link #1464
Asuras
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It would solve a lot of the mobility problem.

His point is that, while 30th century mecha would beat 20th century tank, it wouldn't beat 30th century tank. At equal technology level and equal weight, a humanoid mecha is just a bigger, weaker target than a tank. And no more likely to dodge anti-tank weaponry than a flesh and blood human is to dodge bullets. (Both happen in anime. I don't think you'll see a lot of either IRL.)
Not as much dodging bullets and shells as rockets and RPG's. They're fast, but you can still see them coming if you're looking at the right place at the right time. A tank can't move sideways to dodge a rocket. Though I can see a hover tank would be able to.
I understand a future tank would beat a future mecha, but the mere definition of a tank ensures limits as to what it can do, and I again point to some of the things a mech could potentially do as opposed to a tank.
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Old 2012-12-04, 16:31   Link #1465
kyp275
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Originally Posted by Asuras View Post
It seems to me your forgetting that we're taking into consideration that we already have this level of technology.
Eh, not sure where you got that impression from, looking back through the posts, the discussion up until this point has been about the feasibility of the platform based on realistic expectation/scenarions. By bringing in anime mechas level tech, you've moved it to a completely different topic all-together.

Quote:
I mean saying, "Well we don't have that kind of technology," doesn't mean anything when we're talking about the advantages of a potential future mecha system. It'd be like saying we shouldn't have believed VTOL was a good idea because at the time it was implausible.
Actually, technological limitation means EVERYTHING in the context of this discussion. There's no point in debating the potential advantages of a bi/quad legged platform if you're adding a bunch of preconditions that includes magic power source / building material etc. It'd be like debating the practicality of manned fighter jets in the future by basing it on stuff like inertia nullifier and macross-style missiles.

Also, the viability of a military weapons platform cannot be evaluated in a vacuum, their capabilities must be compared to their contemporaries. There's little point in saying a mech has all these advantages with these future techs when you compare it to a modern day tank.

Quote:
In any case, a bank of missile launchers is nothing special, and hovering wouldn't change many things I offered the mecha would be capable of.
Actually, guided munitions such as missiles are extremely potent on a battlefield, especially in anti-vehicular roles. Go ahead, hide behind that building, it's not gonna do you a whole lot of good when you're facing Javelin-type weapons that attacks from above.

As for hovering, it would massively increase the maneuverability of the armored vehicle, and give it even more capable at crossing terrains than ground based platforms. That being said, it's also a "magic" tech, so there's little point in debating how it'd perform against other "magic" techs.


I would love to see a real mech as much as the next guy (GIMME MAH TIMBERWOLF!!!), but in the context of this discussion (or at least what I thought is the context), practical limitations of the platform cannot be magicked away.
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Old 2012-12-04, 16:45   Link #1466
Asuras
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Eh, not sure where you got that impression from, looking back through the posts, the discussion up until this point has been about the feasibility of the platform based on realistic expectation/scenarions. By bringing in anime mechas level tech, you've moved it to a completely different topic all-together.
I'm not even talking about Gundam level tech. Don't be ridiculous. you don't need to be a Gundam to have the abilities I mentioned.

Quote:
Actually, technological limitation means EVERYTHING in the context of this discussion. There's no point in debating the potential advantages of a bi/quad legged platform if you're adding a bunch of preconditions that includes magic power source / building material etc. It'd be like debating the practicality of manned fighter jets in the future by basing it on stuff like inertia nullifier and macross-style missiles.

Also, the viability of a military weapons platform cannot be evaluated in a vacuum, their capabilities must be compared to their contemporaries. There's little point in saying a mech has all these advantages with these future techs when you compare it to a modern day tank.
But the thing is you can debate the practicality and usefulness of a system using technology we can't currently access. It's the reason people even consider building new types of weapons; if we didn't consider the advantages of a new technology as being useful on the battlefield, why would we ever develop it? You can consider the advantages of a future mecha on the battlefield and still have your head below the clouds.

Again, you can... The only reason we consider a mecha is to see what it offers us in comparison to a tank. We would attempt to build one because it is being compared to a potentially inferior tank. And to even say a mecha is totally and utterly implausible today seems a bit silly either way; consider when we got to the moon. We still have trouble launching rockets into space and the 1960's managed to send men to the moon. Looking at other forms of technology doesn't necessarily inhibit our ability to make completely new things at the same time.

Quote:
Actually, guided munitions such as missiles are extremely potent on a battlefield, especially in anti-vehicular roles. Go ahead, hide behind that building, it's not gonna do you a whole lot of good when you're facing Javelin-type munitions that attacks from above.

As for hovering, it would massively increase the maneuverability of the armored vehicle, and give it even more capable at crossing terrains than ground based platforms. That being said, it's also a "magic" tech, so there's little point in debating how it'd perform against other "magic" techs.
But how are you going to target the unit behind the building to launch the missile in the first place?

Yes, hovering would be grand, but in all honesty, I find it even more implausible than a mecha.
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Old 2012-12-04, 17:20   Link #1467
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Voyager 1 probe leaving solar system reaches "magnetic highway" exit

http://news.yahoo.com/voyager-1-prob...023825204.html

Actually guys.. though it's just a device.... I think it'll be sad travelling alone out there....
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Old 2012-12-04, 17:31   Link #1468
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Large powered infantry. Would get around the power cel problems of the human sided Power Armor suits.
.
that would be the Suit form Gasaraki, a more mobile tank for Urban warfare.

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Old 2012-12-04, 17:46   Link #1469
Ithekro
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Voyager 1 probe leaving solar system reaches "magnetic highway" exit

http://news.yahoo.com/voyager-1-prob...023825204.html

Actually guys.. though it's just a device.... I think it'll be sad travelling alone out there....
Well. than we will have to work on arriving at its next destnation before it gets there.
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Old 2012-12-04, 17:51   Link #1470
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Well. than we will have to work on arriving at its next destnation before it gets there.
or before it falls into a blackhole, gets flung across the far reach of the universe, get upgraded by a mysterious robotic species and decided to come back to Earth.
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Old 2012-12-04, 18:13   Link #1471
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
or before it falls into a blackhole, gets flung across the far reach of the universe, get upgraded by a mysterious robotic species and decided to come back to Earth.
It will return on it's own when humanity has declined.
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Old 2012-12-04, 18:35   Link #1472
Ithekro
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Well we have about 40,000 years before it gets even close to any other star but our own.
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Old 2012-12-04, 18:43   Link #1473
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Well we have about 40,000 years before it gets even close to any other star but our own.
Life is too short...
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Old 2012-12-04, 18:57   Link #1474
Jinto
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Originally Posted by Asuras View Post
But the thing is you can debate the practicality and usefulness of a system using technology we can't currently access. It's the reason people even consider building new types of weapons; if we didn't consider the advantages of a new technology as being useful on the battlefield, why would we ever develop it? You can consider the advantages of a future mecha on the battlefield and still have your head below the clouds.
Of course you can, but it sometimes helps to do this within reasonable limitations set by physics. Whenever you improve the theoretical technology available for a mech it would at the same time apply for other weapon platforms too.
You know I can stomach some fanboy-ism. But please don't try to reason it.

For example you were talking about dodging rockets. Well let me tell you that rockets today are much more of a challenge for the supposed future technology mech then you might think.
Dodging guided rockets with pattern recognition based seekers that fly not straight at you, but in a curve, so they can attack from above (top attack - because thats typically the weakest part on armored weapon platforms) is not exactly something you are going to dodge with dexterous moves. These rockets will become even more sophisticated using future technology.

Armored weapon platforms today use different means to "dodge" rockets (aka counter measures provided by APS - active protection systems). For example smoke grenades. When the target is covered in smoke a seeker has some difficulty finding it. Since the modern rocket tries to attack from above, it will just fly over the armored weapons platform which cannot be identified in the smoke (a soft kill counter measure).
Should the rocket be "intelligent" enough to aim for a point that corresponds to the targets position before the smoke screen was created or simply is faster approaching than the smoke can enclose the armored weapon platform, then there could be a hard kill counter measure in place to destroy the rocket physically (these things work better then every dodge movement you can possibly imagine your mech would be doing).

Here is an example of a hard kill APS in action

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92aQ7rfC2IU

(20m is a typical attack range in urban warfare - now imagine you wanna dodge something that hits you in a few milliseconds - the g-forces of the resulting dodging move would tear apart any presently known material - in fact, the dodging would actually cause 1000-fold more damage than the incoming threat).
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Old 2012-12-04, 19:04   Link #1475
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Well we have about 40,000 years before it gets even close to any other star but our own.
not if it falls through a worm hole.
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Old 2012-12-04, 19:18   Link #1476
Ithekro
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Well there is that. Voyager 1 is currently the fastest object we have since the otehr deep space probes will not have the double gravity boost of Saturn and Titan to help shove it out of the system (it is going something near 3.6 AU a year).

And of course it could be Voyager 2 that hits the wormhole.
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Old 2012-12-04, 20:57   Link #1477
kyp275
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Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
stuff
Pretty much what you said, I think often times in these type of discussions people invariably start to neglect (or never quite understood) the situations and evolving demands and challenges of a real battlefield, which is the most important driver behind whether a particular weapon platform is practical or obsolete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuras View Post
And to even say a mecha is totally and utterly implausible today seems a bit silly either way; consider when we got to the moon. We still have trouble launching rockets into space and the 1960's managed to send men to the moon. Looking at other forms of technology doesn't necessarily inhibit our ability to make completely new things at the same time.
I have to refute you on this specific point, chemical rockets has little resemblance to a mechs. While chemical rockets is still a very complex piece of technology, the current challenges has more to do with reliability and cost efficiency, while mechs are still squarely in the realm of the unicorn, with severe technical challenges still ahead of it.

For starters, material. We simply have nothing with which to build a mech, at least one with the kind of mobility you're envisioning. To put it into perspective, assuming the mech weights only 30 tons (rather lightweight, barely half of a M1 MBT), this means each leg would be subject to well over 100 tons of force individually when simply running in a straight line, and that's before you even try to attempt more forceful moves such as jumping/dodging etc. The amount of force the joints would have to withstand would be immense, and far beyond the capability of the materials we currently have. And this is without going into the equally challenging issues with power generation/storage, drive-train etc.

We're a VERY long way from building a practical mech, if indeed we ever will.
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Old 2012-12-04, 21:06   Link #1478
Asuras
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Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Here is an example of a hard kill APS in action

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92aQ7rfC2IU

(20m is a typical attack range in urban warfare - now imagine you wanna dodge something that hits you in a few milliseconds - the g-forces of the resulting dodging move would tear apart any presently known material - in fact, the dodging would actually cause 1000-fold more damage than the incoming threat).
I'll be completely honest, I'm not sure what just happened here. Did it just intercept a bullet?
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Old 2012-12-04, 21:32   Link #1479
kyp275
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it intercepted a dummy projectile, which was shot out of the rifle at the back of the red truck.

The system is designed to intercept missiles/rockets/KE penetrators etc.
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Old 2012-12-05, 09:28   Link #1480
ChainLegacy
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Voyager 1 probe leaving solar system reaches "magnetic highway" exit

http://news.yahoo.com/voyager-1-prob...023825204.html

Actually guys.. though it's just a device.... I think it'll be sad travelling alone out there....
That's really something. One of humanity's most impressive scientific feats yet. Now the only question is, if we can get out there again, and further, in less time...
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