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Old 2012-12-01, 22:22   Link #31281
Valkama
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Well on the subject of Shkanon clues I did go back and look through EP1 (skimm'd it mostly) and I did find a couple of interesting things that could hint towards Shkanon.

The first one is what was stated before the part where Kanon talks to himself and says "Even I." Alone that statement doesn't seem very significant but for some reason the Manga actually makes a huge deal out of that. If you read it as Shkanon this scene might suggest the Beatrice persona having feels for Battler still.

The second notable scene is when Battler interrogates Kanon, Genji and Kumasawa. This scene is really weird in itself because the three do a complete 180 and Genji is really out of character. The VN didn't say how much of the conversation Battler heard but the Manga suggest that he heard all of it. Most of what Battler hears is about Kanon complaining that Shannon died. However as soon as Battler enters the three get taken completely off guard and Kanon refuses to look Battler in the eye. Then Kumasawa and Genji start talking for him and then both go all freaky like which is rather out of character for them all. (Maybe not Kumasawa).

Now if we were to assume Kanon was the culprit then this scene doesn't make much sense. Why would Kanon be talking in private about how he hates how Beatrice killed Shannon if Kanon is the culprit? This scene however could be suggesting Kanon does have multiple personalities.

As far as making Kanon the culprit of that gameboard. Lambdadelta at the end of EP4 suggests that Beatrice disproved that someone was hiding under the bed. True there are ways to work around the red but Lambda knows the solution and was pretty convinced that Battler's theory was disproven. So the only other way I see that locked room being done is with Kanon. It makes no sense for Lambda to be lying there.

In short, EP1 seems to suggest that Kanon has multiple personalities.

Also Shannon does say something kinda interesting when they are on the beach. She says that a young servant told her about scorpions repelling magic. Yasu anyone?
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Old 2012-12-01, 22:59   Link #31282
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Bern/Erika did figure it out eventually,
I always liked to think that Bern knew more than she was letting on (specifically letting Erika know). I am not sure how much, but those scenes where her and Lambda ridicule Erika for her solutions to the mysteries just reek of "I know something you don't know, what, you can't even figure this much out?". And not just from Lamda, Bern is giving almost as much. Plus whether it is unfair to bring it up as this was back when Bern was supposed to just be a cameo, but Ryu confirmed that her saying "Beatrice is not a women who limits herself to being just one person" or whatever WAS a Shkannontrice hint.

Quote:
"Ignoring the heart" doesn't just mean ignoring the motive, but it also covers ignoring the stuff that doesn't directly pertain to the murders
I always thought that Bern's murder game was a fun little lesson on this. We have the "purple" statements, which are sort of mostly true, but to get the answer you have to actually read the white narration bits in between. Sound familiar anyone? (Sidebar, my only problem with that game was that I came to George culprit theory first NOT because I was smart enough to think he killed a child before coming to the island, but because even though Battler's was more complete there was an inconsistency in the narration and one of George's purple statements which meant he HAD to be lying)

Quote:
while one of the more unexciting ones
Not to spill my fanboy everywhere or anything, but having just reread the end of ep 2 last night, I thought it was pretty awesome. The timing especially on Rosa's final scene and the flashing of jaws to the "when the seagulls cry, no-one was left alive" was truly well handled. Also in retrospect apart from Rosa being present in the chapel and never addressing it, Beato basically calls her an accomplice when she meets her in the teaparty, saying "I will reward you for your services"
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Old 2012-12-01, 23:45   Link #31283
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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Not to spill my fanboy everywhere or anything, but having just reread the end of ep 2 last night, I thought it was pretty awesome. The timing especially on Rosa's final scene and the flashing of jaws to the "when the seagulls cry, no-one was left alive" was truly well handled. Also in retrospect apart from Rosa being present in the chapel and never addressing it, Beato basically calls her an accomplice when she meets her in the teaparty, saying "I will reward you for your services"
Oh the Rosa Musou scene was probably the coolest scene in the entire series, I agree with that. I was just referring to the first part with Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice which I felt kind of drags, but is very informative.
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Old 2012-12-02, 10:26   Link #31284
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I know it's been said before, but after rereading the Uru tea party of ep 2 I cannot help but feel Ryu was getting ready to totally destroy us with land. Once Lambda joins in Beato basically says things are about to get ugly.
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Old 2012-12-02, 12:35   Link #31285
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
I agree that the motive for any character killing everybody is weak and that there is no evidence on the gameboards that Yasu actually committed the crimes. If there was as much as a single hint towards who did them, we would solve it too easily.

But that's not to say there aren't hints about WHO Beatrice is. I think that this was never meant to be solvable entirely by looking at the gameboards or the Red Truth. The hints towards Shkannontrice are very, very plentiful in the EP1-4 meta scenes. "Ignoring the heart" doesn't just mean ignoring the motive, but it also covers ignoring the stuff that doesn't directly pertain to the murders... the 'heart' of the story. You couldn't treat this like a normal mystery in order to arrive at the answer confidently. "Without love, it can't be seen" --- you had to study Beatrice's character and actions in the meta scenes to reach this answer confidently. EP2, while one of the more unexciting ones, held a lot of secrets. Especially considering Beatrice's reaction to Kanon's & Shannon's statements of love during their death scenes.

I know that doesn't help with the issue that Shkanon can't be directly tied into the murders on the gameboard but this is how I think we were supposed to study Umineko.
I've got a few issues with that though.

#1: Ignoring the other heart
The gameboards represent about half of the time spent on the Question Arcs. If it's ignoring the heart to skim over the meta scenes, isn't it also ignoring the heart to say there are no clues in the mystery scenes? After all, Yasu apparently enjoyed writing mysteries even more than she enjoyed the purely magic side she shared with Maria. Meta-scenes are definitely necessary, but can they really be our only clues to the answer?

#2: What Beatrice is
As I understand it, Beatrice represents the rule saying "the most plausible explanation presented wins". The witch theory "wins" only when people accept it, and they'd only accept magic if no other complete theory can (or will) be presented.

For the meta-world, this is trivial, but on the gameboard, it's a pretty important point. Since the human Yasu can't actually jump out in front of everyone and do magic, she has to "present" her explanation of what Beatrice is indirectly. She can only control Beatrice by leaving clues pointing to parts of Beatrice's personality and powers.

The point here is that accidents or the actions of entirely unrelated people can change "Beatrice's" personality. More importantly, since meta-Beatrice is obligated to show meta-Battler an explanation for everything with herself as the culprit, she also has to pretend everything that happens is according to her plan, or else the plan of someone with the power to oppose a witch. So we have to be very wary of what we learn about Beatrice in meta scenes.
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Old 2012-12-02, 15:00   Link #31286
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So we have to be very wary of what we learn about Beatrice in meta scenes.
Except Meta-Beatrice is not Piece-Beatrice and she doesn't hide this fact, so this doesn't follow from the rest of your post.
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Old 2012-12-02, 17:07   Link #31287
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Except Meta-Beatrice is not Piece-Beatrice and she doesn't hide this fact, so this doesn't follow from the rest of your post.
I'm not saying they are the same person. Meta-Beatrice claims that she personally was responsible for all the murders before EP3. Her whole explanation for the gameboard depends on that claim, since that's the setting for the fantasy story she's telling. Her very existence is based on this answer to the Rokkenjima mystery.

Since she claims to actually be the killer herself, she needs her personality to match what we know about that killer. Therefore, the events on the gameboard necessarily influence her behavior.
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Old 2012-12-02, 17:41   Link #31288
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Except that doesn't actually hold up when you consider that Beatrice doesn't bother keeping her own magical narrative consistent from episode to episode and in line with the Meta-World narrative.
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Old 2012-12-02, 21:43   Link #31289
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Except that doesn't actually hold up when you consider that Beatrice doesn't bother keeping her own magical narrative consistent from episode to episode and in line with the Meta-World narrative.
Not sure what part you're talking about. Beatrice goes to pretty great lengths to illustrate her transition from heartless murderer to a person determined to atone for her sins. That artificial story arc lasts most of EP3. As for Virgilia's personality, her role is to get Battler to keep playing the game. Once she "revealed her true nature" at the end of EP3, there was no need to make her a sympathetic character again for a while.

How Beatrice decides to commit the crimes changes drastically in each episode. However, it's part of her character to do things on a whim, just for the hell of it. So that alone doesn't qualify as a plot hole as long as she can think of a plausible excuse.
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Old 2012-12-02, 21:47   Link #31290
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Not sure what part you're talking about.
Episode four comes to mind, where Meta and Piece Beatrice literally talk to each other
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Old 2012-12-02, 23:36   Link #31291
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Episode four comes to mind, where Meta and Piece Beatrice literally talk to each other
Well, that's more or less the point I'm making. Beatrice includes that scene to explain why piece-Beatrice on the balcony had an abrupt attitude change, which piece-Battler saw. As I said, she's matching her personality to what we know of "the killer".

Obviously Beatrice has many motives beyond just playing the role of the culprit, but acting the part of the culprit is clearly one thing she does throughout most of the question arcs.
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Old 2012-12-03, 01:30   Link #31292
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But that scene directly contradicts your thesis of Beatrice presenting herself and her Piece-Self as the same cognitive entity to Battler.
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Old 2012-12-04, 17:38   Link #31293
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Say is the manga canon?

I know its been done more than enough but from what I can tell it certainly has quite the amount of things leading to Rosa.

Examples:
The letters Nanjos son, Sabakichi and Ange received being adressed to Hokkaido which is where Rosa was with "her boyfriend" (Sent at the 3rd, received after incident) or Evatrice mentioning Rosas past intentions of becoming a witch and believing in the forest witch and wishing to fly around like a butterfly as well as her relation to spider webs and having said herself she tried to solve the riddle in the past.
And she trapped butterflied in webs while the people on the Island were once referred as butterflies.



Just feeling kinda mindf'd now.
Ryukishi is at the very least trying to make it look like Rosa and that REALLY hard as said, above are just examples, there is tons.
I don't care if its a Red Herring or Truth, Ryukishi is putting on massive amounts of Rosatrice things, at least I understand why people believe it so much now.
Maria: "Beatrice turns to Butterflies!Uuu-"
Evatrice: "Yep, you told me that you wanted to become a Butterfly and flutter around the Garden." "You told me that you wish to become a witch when you were young. "How about dancing in this eternal dream?"
Dammit Ryukishi.XD

On a different note:
Why did all 3 letters have 07151129 notes with them?

Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-12-04 at 18:28.
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Old 2012-12-04, 18:57   Link #31294
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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Say is the manga canon?

I know its been done more than enough but from what I can tell it certainly has quite the amount of things leading to Rosa.

Examples:
The letters Nanjos son, Sabakichi and Ange received being adressed to Hokkaido which is where Rosa was with "her boyfriend" (Sent at the 3rd, received after incident) or Evatrice mentioning Rosas past intentions of becoming a witch and believing in the forest witch and wishing to fly around like a butterfly as well as her relation to spider webs and having said herself she tried to solve the riddle in the past.
And she trapped butterflied in webs while the people on the Island were once referred as butterflies.

Just feeling kinda mindf'd now.
Ryukishi is at the very least trying to make it look like Rosa and that REALLY hard as said, above are just examples, there is tons.
I don't care if its a Red Herring or Truth, Ryukishi is putting on massive amounts of Rosatrice things, at least I understand why people believe it so much now.
Maria: "Beatrice turns to Butterflies!Uuu-"
Evatrice: "Yep, you told me that you wanted to become a Butterfly and flutter around the Garden." "You told me that you wish to become a witch when you were young. "How about dancing in this eternal dream?"
Dammit Ryukishi.XD

Ryukishi said he would add extra clues in the manga, which is why in EP 8 manga version the game that Ange plays with her relatives is pretty different and filled with clues. However I don't know if he started adding clues right from the first volumes of the manga or in those he gave the manga authors more freedom.

If i don't remember wrong in EP 3 there were clues pointing to Kyrie/Kyrie's gun being the one who shoot at Hideyoshi for example.

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On a different note:
Why did all 3 letters have 07151129 notes with them?
That number was required to access to the bank account.
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Old 2012-12-05, 08:38   Link #31295
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If i don't remember wrong in EP 3 there were clues pointing to Kyrie/Kyrie's gun being the one who shoot at Hideyoshi for example.
Which is really weird, because the VN text implies that Rudolf's gun was used.

I wonder if they changed that line in the PS3 version too? I can definitely imagine Kyrie shooting Hideyoshi better than I can Rudolf, so it wouldn't surprise me if that's something Ryukishi changed his mind on or something.
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Old 2012-12-05, 09:10   Link #31296
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I would presume the manga is canon, at least in the sense that it's been said that Ryukishi has input over what gets put into it. I don't think they'd just make up new details without consulting him, and if a detail were incongruous with what he intended he'd veto it. Hopefully.
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Old 2012-12-05, 19:54   Link #31297
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Which is really weird, because the VN text implies that Rudolf's gun was used.

I wonder if they changed that line in the PS3 version too? I can definitely imagine Kyrie shooting Hideyoshi better than I can Rudolf, so it wouldn't surprise me if that's something Ryukishi changed his mind on or something.
In itself the novel can be seen as pretty vague because, even if the gun used was the one near Rudolf's body, Rudolf and Kyrie's body were moved after they were killed and they were revived and killed many times, which might have caused the bodies to switch position.

To make things vaguer, it's also said that Hideyoshi took the gun of one of them but the novel said it could be one of the other.

So the gun that was closer to Rudolf could have belonged to Kyrie since the novel took care to say it was unknown which gun Hideyoshi took.

At least that's what is said in the fantasy scene as likely the bodies weren't moved after their dead.

Due to the vagueness of the novel I like to think the manga is giving us an hint about Hideyoshi being shoot by Kyrie or being betrayed by her (in the magic scene he's shoot in the back). [Ep 3 chap 14]

Interesting enought the anime (Ep 16) uses a gun that's far from both.

On a sidenote I've always thought that EvaBeatrice represented the alliance between Yasu and Eva so in the mystery side she was nothing else but a Yasu who had sided with Eva which makes rather interesting her argument with MetaBeato as it shows the two Beatos having different goals.
MetaBeato wants to be acknowledged by MetaBattler but EvaBeatrice has no such goal, nor care for MetaBattler who, in a discussion, is defined as a person with which EvaBeatrice wasn't supposed to interact (and, interesting enough, it will be Battler who'll 'force her' to interact with him)


Quote:
"I'm telling you, that is not the problem...! If you act so undignified and cruel, ...umm, some people might take it badly..."
"..............................You mean, your opponent in that game, who I heard you were fighting with somewhere? Ronove told me."
"......D, damn that blabbermouth. .........Well, to be perfectly honest, that's how it is. If you go a little too far, umm, ...that person will object, you see?"
"It's not like there's any need for them to tell you to pass it on instead of objecting directly. ...That coward."
".........Well, that person is a resident of a different world from this one. There's no choice but to use me as an intermediary. Well, that's beside the point but-"
"........................Which means that this person can't interact with me even if they want to. And I can't interact with them even if I want to either. Should I view this as an unrelated person from a world so far away?"
"H, hmm. ......For example, perhaps you could say these worlds are like very close parallel lines. The worlds are very nearby, but because they are parallel lines, they will never cross. For the time being, you may view that world in such a manner."
"They never cross. Which means, ............that world has nothing to do with me. ...If you're telling me to be prudent because you are speaking for that person, please pass this message on to them."
"Tell that person? What should I say...?"
"It's none of your business, so disappear, granny. Why don't you just give up and die...?"
"...............Whaa..."
"...Oh, I'm sorry. Since it was a friend of yours, I just imagined that she'd be a woman. By 'granny', I'm definitely not talking about you, Predecessor-sama, so please forgive me. *cackle*cackle*cackle*cackle*...!"
When she spoke, the witch was looking straight into Beato's eyes.
...Anyone in that place would be able to figure it out just by looking.
"............Predecessor-sama. There is something I find very strange. ...Why do you have to play a game with someone from another world, and have him accept that you are a witch?"
"Well, about that, ...that is because making all humans accept the existence of witches is related to perfect control. There was a single holdout, and he just won't accept me as a witch."
".........Why is it that you need the approval of a human? Witches are witches, and can use magic, so why do we need to be accepted by humans?"
"...Mu, .........well, like I said earlier, that which is called magic is..."
"I am a witch. I can use magic without anyone's approval in particular, so what's your point......?"
"In this world, right? However, since that person will not accept it, umm, ...umumu, how should I explain it..."
"......I don't need an explanation. After all, isn't this all about a different world that never crosses this one? In other words, it's just as though that world doesn't exist.
............Whether you're fighting in a game in another world, or talking about your delusions, that doesn't change a-nything. ......I'll say it again. It has nothing to do with me. And, I am already a witch."
"Predecessor-sama, somehow or another, it seems that you can't become a witch as long as this person doesn't accept you, but I'm different. Even though no one has accepted me, I am already an excellent witch. .........Since you are my predecessor, I will formally pay you respect, but that is out of good will, not out of duty.
......I won't ask for your advice anymore, because I clearly know what I should do and how I should play from now on.
.........So I will carry out the murder of 13 people as a final act of respect for you. However, there is absolutely no reason for you to interfere with the methods I use, and what I do after that. ...............Therefore, I'll be counting on you in that regard."
Interesting enough Battler deals with 2 Beato even in EP 4, and although they're apparently the same person the first loses heart when he can't remember his sin (same as MetaBeatrice) while the second is... cold.

Quote:
The witch who had questioned Battler hid herself, and the other witch, who had appeared from behind, remained.
She was certainly identical, the same witch, .........but her expression was somehow indifferent and ice-cold, ......completely removed from the one who, despite seeming drunk up until then, had been in high spirits.
"............Hey!! Are you listening?! Isn't this enough for that test thing?! I don't care whether I passed or failed! I won't be satisfied until I can bash your face!! Come down here!! Or else open this door...!!"
The witch did not answer.
Her eyes were as ice-cold as Battler's shoulders.
......She was clearly a different person since the time she had first appeared on that balcony.
The witch gazed into my eyes, ......and gave two small shakes of the head.
Even without words, I was able to gather that she was expressing some kind of disappointment...
Without saying anything, the witch turned on her heels.
After that, only Battler remained, the cold rain still beating down on him.........
Ep 5 too has two Beatos, one who's comatose and the other who's on the gameboard and, although the fantasy narrative presents Beato as on Natsuhi's side we know that actually it was Yasu who worked to put her in troubles, again presenting a dualism.

And we've 2 Beato even in Ep 6 and one of them can't care less about Battler and don't interact with him while the other does. Interesting enough the one we call Beato the elder is however close to the other Beato and apparently seems to have the same goal as her although ChickBeato's motive is that she wants to please Battler by becoming the Beato he wanted her to be while Beato the elder doesn't share this feeling and, although presented as a piece that's from the past, she interacts with the present.

If we assume Beato the elder is actually PieceBeato and that Yasu began to write tales in which she figured were written prior to Battler's return and therefore prior to trying to send a message to him she's technically a Beato of the past who originally had a completely different goal than 'making Battler remember' although in the end she also tried to work to help the other Beato to reach her own goal.

Yes, young Beato is defined as a piece that Battler 'set on the gameboard' but I wonder if the gameboard involved is the one of the mystery tale or a meta one.
Besides MetaBattler too was defined as a piece in the beginning and, although he looks like he wants to challenge Erika, in truth is possible he was using Erika to have Beato remember. In short he was sort of challenging her in a gentler way than the one Beato used with him.

To make short a long story I'm still of the opinion that the goal of MetaBeato and PieceBeato aren't exactly matching and that PieceBeato is a piece that MetaBeato is trying to use to reach her own goal.

There's also this interesting bit of discussion in Our Confession between Shannon and Beato:

Quote:
"You have no regrets?"
"...None. It is all as Beatrice-sama wills."
Although the magic side (which we're not shown) might have showed us a Shannon that had, as goal, to marry George and was kidnapped against her will, we know that in the mystery side Shannon orchestrated her own disapearence and here she's willing to put aside her own supposed goal to comply with Beato's wishes. Kanon will do more or less the same although we're told that in the fantasy side we'll see him fighting Beato with all his might which seems to prove the scenes of Kanon and Shannon obeying to Beato don't belong to the magic side Battler was supposed to see.

So, Shannon's goal here seems more to fulfill MetaBeato's will than her own.
If she and MetaBeato were the same person it'll look like Yasu is insane but if she's just a character in MetaBeato's story it'll make more sense that she will accept the author's goal as her own.

[Although a good writer shoulden't force a goal on a character... however it's possible that the 'forcing' represents that the real Shannon wasn't a killer but that in the story her PieceVersion becomes one to fulfil the author's purpose more than the purpose of the real Shannon. Due to this her actions were 'forced' as they wouldn't fit the real Shannon but they needed to be as such to fit with MetaBeato's purposes]

Another sidenote.

In Ep 5 Natsuhi said she confessed being the cause of the servant's dead in front of the servant's husband grave few years ago.

Although likely Natsuhi didn't mean to be heard it's possible she traveled to where the guy was buried with someone else (for example Shannon) and this person overheard her saying so without her noticing. This would explain why Yasu knows Natsuhi caused the baby to fall a thing Natsuhi apparently didn't tell anyone.

Of course another possibility is that, since Ep 5 was written by Battler, it was Toya who found out this. Since it's said that the servant and the baby were rushed to the hospital both apparently still alive the servant might have said something like 'madam pushed me' but the whole thing was hushed by the Ushiromiya's money or whoever picked up the servant's confession didn't dare to report it to the police in fear of the Ushiromiya's power and due to lack of proof and that tattled it out only after the incident, helping to build up a Natsuhi culprit theory in Toya's time.

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-12-05 at 20:29.
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Old 2012-12-06, 05:27   Link #31298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Which is really weird, because the VN text implies that Rudolf's gun was used.

I wonder if they changed that line in the PS3 version too? I can definitely imagine Kyrie shooting Hideyoshi better than I can Rudolf, so it wouldn't surprise me if that's something Ryukishi changed his mind on or something.
I think he noticed that some elements of EP3 were pretty vague and out of context the way he presented it. I liked this kind of presentation, but it was never picked up again during the VN, so he might have found it necessary to elaborate in other media.

The manga also adds the line "Eva did not kill Hideyoshi.", the novel and console version removed the red on the line "the above 15 people are dead" when Evatrice counts Kanon and Shannon seperately.
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Old 2012-12-06, 09:08   Link #31299
Renall
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It's easy to imagine that, yeah. There's a lot of things that would be clearer to convey in a manga or animated format, but I don't really trust anything from the anime because it was a mess visually. The manga seems to be kept on a considerably tighter leash, so if there's additional hints there they're probably reliable.
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Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2012-12-06, 11:21   Link #31300
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
But that scene directly contradicts your thesis of Beatrice presenting herself and her Piece-Self as the same cognitive entity to Battler.
Mind if I ask what your explanation for that scene is?
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