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View Poll Results: Sakurasou no Pet na Kanojo - Episode 9 Rating
Perfect 10 13 22.03%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 14 23.73%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 22 37.29%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 15.25%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.69%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-12-07, 09:01   Link #221
Sumeragi
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Food for thought: Mashiro duty can be done only by someone who is hired or actually cares about Mashiro. Rita would certainly not be the former, leaving only the latter. Then, exactly where does the unfound biased thought of Rita having some bad motivation come in? In fact, I would say such a thought can only be made if one ignores the overall situation and sees only what they want to see.
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Old 2012-12-07, 09:20   Link #222
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One factor I think we need to consider with Rita and Mashiro. It's a factor that Zavie rightly brought up several pages back, but since that it hasn't been discussed much.

Mashiro... isn't exactly a normal teenaged girl. And I don't just mean her talent for painting. I mean that she seems to have Savant syndrome, or something similar to it at least.

Mashiro doesn't speak her mind as clearly and thoroughly as what most people do. And it's not a matter of shyness - Mashiro is very bold if anything - But it's rather a case of Mashiro seeming to lack the capacity for detailed conversation.


Rita probably sees Mashiro as somebody who can't be trusted to look after herself. And given what Mashiro was like at the start of this anime, I don't see how you can blame Rita for that. Mashiro really did have major issues with looking after herself at first.

I wouldn't be surprised if back in England, Mashiro was diagnosed as autistic, or something along the same lines. And so she was babied not out of some malicious desire to control her, but because people sincerely thought that Mashiro just lacked the mental capacity to learn to take care of herself.


Rita perhaps doubts that Mashiro has the mental capacity to really think about the choices put in front of her here, and hence takes a more forceful stance. As someone who has an autistic cousin, I can certainly understand why Rita would do this.
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Old 2012-12-07, 14:28   Link #223
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I agree. Which I would argue is precisely why altruism is something that needs to be encouraged, because it doesn't come as naturally as self-interest does.

I raised the JFK quote not because I think it's absolutely right in every instance, but just because such quotes are important reminders of how it's important to think altruistically at least some times.

So I don't want Shiina to put the masses ahead of her own desires, but simply for the masses to be a consideration.


My general thinking is that when you're facing a major decision in life it's good to think about the pros and cons of each possible decision. My thinking is "How will my decision affect others?" should come up somewhere in those pros/cons. That's all. The decisive factor could still be "I'd rather do manga because I've come to love verbalized storytelling. I find that greatly more rewarding than the merely implied storytelling of painting."

If so, fine.
I can certainly understand that. The only objection I really have to that is mostly due to ambiguity of Shiina's situation and circumstances. I don't really know much about art, but it wouldn't surprise me if there really were artists who painted purely for themselves and not for others. I wouldn't quite call it selfishness: It's just that the thought of others simply never had a chance to enter the equation in the first place. In that kind of circumstance, it may be difficult to try and get them to change their outlook. It might not be much of a problem in other areas of a profession but I think art is all about expressing yourself so it's more complicated. It'[s all very well and good trying to get them to think about the people, but for someone where that was never a factor to begin with it, it could be downright impossible. But this is all possibility and most likely unrelated to Shiina anyway. I stand by my prediction that for Shiina it's simply about her friends.
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Old 2012-12-07, 17:26   Link #224
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Rita probably sees Mashiro as somebody who can't be trusted to look after herself. And given what Mashiro was like at the start of this anime, I don't see how you can blame Rita for that. Mashiro really did have major issues with looking after herself at first.

I wouldn't be surprised if back in England, Mashiro was diagnosed as autistic, or something along the same lines. And so she was babied not out of some malicious desire to control her, but because people sincerely thought that Mashiro just lacked the mental capacity to learn to take care of herself.


Rita perhaps doubts that Mashiro has the mental capacity to really think about the choices put in front of her here, and hence takes a more forceful stance. As someone who has an autistic cousin, I can certainly understand why Rita would do this.
If that were the case, wouldn't she see this current move as a good thing? Mashiro is stepping out on her, taking her own initiative, and has the opportunity to learn to "look after herself" through all this. She actually has a very good support structure (which Rita is able to verify). Through either success or failure, Mashiro will certainly learn her own limitations and become a more self-sufficient person. And though her painting skills may slip somewhat in the meantime, she's not materially harming herself or others through this experience.

I think the fact that Mashiro has not chosen to pursue painting right now is not itself "evidence" that she can't think for herself. Rather, the fact that she's chosen something other than painting (that she's always done) proves that she is thinking for herself. So this all suggests (to me, anyway) that Rita may not fully want Mashiro to be independent, because if Mashiro makes her own choices she may not do what Rita thinks is best for her.

If someone really lacks the mental capacity to think for themselves, as you suggest, would that justify pushing them down a path they seem not inclined to take because it's better for "the world", even when the alternative would help them do the things they want to do and develop the very independence they seem to be lacking? Should one person be able to decide for another person that their own personal desires are less important than "the greater good"? You'll find some extremely troubling ethical quandaries if you venture down this path.
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Old 2012-12-07, 18:06   Link #225
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
If that were the case, wouldn't she see this current move as a good thing?
Rita might once she's aware of the full impact that Sakurasou has had on Mashiro's personal development.

But good grief, it's only been one episode. It's unreasonable to expect Rita to have already fully registered all the changes Mashiro has experienced since coming to Sakurasou. At least give Rita another episode or two before we make a complete evaluation of her character and motivations.


Quote:
I think the fact that Mashiro has not chosen to pursue painting right now is not itself "evidence" that she can't think for herself. Rather, the fact that she's chosen something other than painting (that she's always done) proves that she is thinking for herself.
That might prove nothing more than Mashiro being whimsical. Autistic people aren't incapable of making choices. It's that, in some of the more extreme cases at least, their choices tend to have a short-sighted, whimsical nature to them. That's why it's important to have caretakers to steer them away from more harmful choices.


Quote:
If someone really lacks the mental capacity to think for themselves, as you suggest, would that justify pushing them down a path they seem not inclined to take because it's better for "the world", even when the alternative would help them do the things they want to do and develop the very independence they seem to be lacking?
Look, if Shiina was a real world person, it's highly unlikely that she would ever be entirely independent. We're talking about someone that tried to microwave a watermelon.

Rita's actions make perfect sense in a real world setting with a real life person like Shiina, which is why I think some people here are faulting Rita too much. But I'll grant you that in a fictional anime narrative, you may well get a Disney-esque happy ending anyway.
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Old 2012-12-07, 19:35   Link #226
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Rita's actions make perfect sense in a real world setting with a real life person like Shiina, which is why I think some people here are faulting Rita too much.
No, they still don't make sense. Rita is not Mashiro's caretaker. She's, at best, an "interested party" (a "friend"). If Mashiro is really unable to take care of herself, Rita should be approaching her caretakers with her concern. The very fact that Rita is approaching Mashiro and trying to convince her to change her mind implies that she feels that Mashiro is in a position where she can make the decision on her own, and that Rita feels Mashiro has made the wrong decision.

You keep constantly shifting the goalposts in this discussion. First it was "Mashiro has an obligation to the world". Then it was "Mashiro should at least consider her obligation to the world". Now it's "Mashiro isn't really in a position to make an informed decision about her obligation to the world". The common theme through your entire argument is, because she made a certain choice about what to do with her own artistic talent (one that, in your view, "squanders her talent"), that she's in need of "correction". That is the very premise I don't agree with.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
But I'll grant you that in a fictional anime narrative, you may well get a Disney-esque happy ending anyway.
What "Disney-esque happy ending" do you even think I want? I want Rita to realize that, before she chastises others for not doing what she thinks they should do, she should first make sure she's doing what she can with her own talents. "Personal responsibility starts with you", as it were. This has little to do with whether Mashiro either paints or not, or whether she lives in England or in Japan (though we know she will continue living in Japan for the show to continue).

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
But good grief, it's only been one episode. It's unreasonable to expect Rita to have already fully registered all the changes Mashiro has experienced since coming to Sakurasou. At least give Rita another episode or two before we make a complete evaluation of her character and motivations.
I'm not saying Rita's the spawn of Satan, or that she's some evil villain that needs to be defeated. I'm saying that her approach is misguided. If she really is legitimately concerned for Mashiro as a person (and not just as a symbol to the art world), she needs to change her approach. I'm also supposing she probably will.
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Old 2012-12-07, 20:14   Link #227
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(triple_R,feel free to say if I've understood your posts wrong)

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
No, they still don't make sense. Rita is not Mashiro's caretaker. She's, at best, an "interested party" (a "friend"). If Mashiro is really unable to take care of herself, Rita should be approaching her caretakers with her concern.
Isn't that what she did at the end of this episode? Rita was her official caretaker for several years as well.

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
You keep constantly shifting the goalposts in this discussion. First it was "Mashiro has an obligation to the world". Then it was "Mashiro should at least consider her obligation to the world". Now it's "Mashiro isn't really in a position to make an informed decision about her obligation to the world".
I never got the impression there was a shift in triple_R's thinking from "Mashiro has an obligation to the world" to "Mashiro should at least consider her obligation to the world".

It was (and I figure still is) " Mashiro has an obligation to at least consider that she has a great talent for painting and the consequences of turning down such a career"

And what he just brought up isn't "Mashiro isn't really in a position to make an informed decision about her obligation to the world" but rather that Rita has the misguided view that Mashiro might not know what's best for her,not that he himself believes that.

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I'm not saying Rita's the spawn of Satan, or that she's some evil villain that needs to be defeated. I'm saying that her approach is misguided.
Then to me it feels like you're pretty close to Triple_R line of thought.

There's hardly been anybody that has said they feel Mashiro needs to go back to England,just people that feel Rita is being viewed " as some evil villain that needs to be defeated" by some (maybe not you relentlessflame,but others) and that it's not fair to her.
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Old 2012-12-07, 20:18   Link #228
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No, they still don't make sense. Rita is not Mashiro's caretaker. She's, at best, an "interested party" (a "friend"). If Mashiro is really unable to take care of herself, Rita should be approaching her caretakers with her concern.
As was mentioned, Rita was in charge of 'Mashiro Duty' in England; that means all the things that Sorata has to put up with, Rita has to as well... And she's been doing it for YEARS before Sorata came into the picture... And it's not just one or two years either.


For all intents and purposes, Rita is her caretaker- And as if it wasn't enough, she herself was a young girl during that time.
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Old 2012-12-07, 20:30   Link #229
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No, they still don't make sense. Rita is not Mashiro's caretaker. She's, at best, an "interested party" (a "friend").
Rita took care of Mashiro Duty in England. I think that jut about sinks every notion that Rita is just an "interested party".
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Old 2012-12-07, 20:34   Link #230
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No, they still don't make sense. Rita is not Mashiro's caretaker.
That's not what Rita said. Rita said that she was in charge of "Mashiro Duty" back in England. So yeah, unless Rita is just telling a total lie there, she was Mashiro's caretaker.


Quote:
If Mashiro is really unable to take care of herself, Rita should be approaching her caretakers with her concern.
Well isn't that exactly what she did after Mashiro refused her initial request? After that initial request was made, Rita turned to Sorata for help.


Quote:
The very fact that Rita is approaching Mashiro and trying to convince her to change her mind implies that she feels that Mashiro is in a position where she can make the decision on her own, and that Rita feels Mashiro has made the wrong decision.
From Rita's position, the quickest and simplest solution is if Mashiro agrees to go back with her to England. So it makes sense that she tried that first.


Quote:
You keep constantly shifting the goalposts in this discussion.
Edit: Totoum honestly handled this better than I myself did, lol. So I'm deleting some of what I wrote here, and just writing "Yeah, totoum covered it".


In any event, when I recently read Sumeragi raise "Mashiro duty" it occurred to me that there's a side to this that most of us (myself included, I'll admit) had neglected here. And that side is that Mashiro is not a normal teenager, and for reasons that go beyond just her artistic talents.

I think it's important to bring that side of things into focus now because I think it helps to explain why Rita is doing what she's doing.


Quote:
Now it's "Mashiro isn't really in a position to make an informed decision about her obligation to the world".
Well, whether or not Mashiro is, it's possible that Rita sincerely thinks that she isn't. Personally, I think that Mashiro has grown a lot over the course of this anime, and likely can make an informed decision of this nature.


Quote:
The common theme through your entire argument is, because she made a certain choice about what to do with her own artistic talent (one that, in your view, "squanders her talent"), that she's in need of "correction".
No, that's not accurate, based on what I wrote here.

Key Excerpt: My general thinking is that when you're facing a major decision in life it's good to think about the pros and cons of each possible decision. My thinking is "How will my decision affect others?" should come up somewhere in those pros/cons. That's all. The decisive factor could still be "I'd rather do manga because I've come to love verbalized storytelling. I find that greatly more rewarding than the merely implied storytelling of painting."

If so, fine.


In other words, I could accept Mashiro choosing to turn her back on painting forever (I certainly wouldn't like it, but I could accept it), as long as such a decision involved a careful weighing of all the pros and cons, including how her decision will affect others. In my view, that is simply a balanced, mature, and appropriately thoughtful approach to take when making major life decisions.
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Old 2012-12-07, 21:22   Link #231
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All these rants and anger over Rita's action/words and Sorata's feeling... Is there something about Rita and Sorata thinking that reminds you of something? What experience did you have that enforces your anger at them?
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Old 2012-12-07, 21:43   Link #232
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Mashiro could easily do both, she could devote almost all of her passion to manga and if she gets inspired she could easily do a painting and sell it at an increased markup due to scarcity.

I suspect though that the apparatus's (corporation or group of interested parties that acts as her caretakers) jobs are funded by her putting out paintings. Thus they need her back.

If I recall correctly Michael Jordan was kicked off his college basketball team or was it high school, then told he didn't have a future playing basketball.

Einstein was seen as a fool until he was taught algebra. He wasn't scouted as the next prodigy. He worked as clerk in the patent office until his work was published. If no one bothered to look at it, he could easily have died in obscurity.

Simply put, let people find their own ways to serve one another.

Painting has been around for a long time, comic books & manga are a recent thing, what if manga replaces painting. Why are people trying to hold others back?
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Old 2012-12-08, 00:08   Link #233
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Use of the word "caretaker" was obviously a poor choice of words in this situation given the literal nature of what is going on. I apologize for the poor choice of words. What I meant was she's not her legal guardian any more then Sorata is just because they're "assigned" to "Mashiro Duty". Neither of them are in a position to make life decisions on her behalf, and that is not what they're being asked or expected to do. They're supporting her. Do I think that makes them interested parties? Yes, and very interested even. But I don't believe this gives either of them (or us) the right to judge her decision-making process based on not making the choice they think she should make (or not agreeing with her reasons why).

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
In other words, I could accept Mashiro choosing to turn her back on painting forever (I certainly wouldn't like it, but I could accept it), as long as such a decision involved a careful weighing of all the pros and cons, including how her decision will affect others. In my view, that is simply a balanced, mature, and appropriately thoughtful approach to take when making major life decisions.
My problem is with this very concept of "I can accept your life choice as long as I agree with your decision-making process". And what if her "decision-making process" doesn't live up to your standards? Why are you assuming that she may have a faulty decision-making process just because she didn't make the choice you think she should have made? The whole thing starts at the very base and works its way up. If the base assumption is "everyone has the right to make their own decisions about how to live their lives, free from the judgement of others", then the assumption itself (that she probably didn't think this through) is offensive.

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It was (and I figure still is) " Mashiro has an obligation to at least consider that she has a great talent for painting and the consequences of turning down such a career"
I don't agree with this. In my view, Mashiro has no such "obligation". She was born with a gift, and she can choose how to use that gift however she wishes. She is not responsible in this regard to anyone but to herself, and no one should guilt her into thinking otherwise. That doesn't mean she either "should" or will make a "selfish choice", but I think she could, and if she does I think no one has the right to question it or call her out on it. Instead, I believe each person should live their own life in accordance with their own values, and let their example inspire others to make like decisions for themselves.


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Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
All these rants and anger over Rita's action/words and Sorata's feeling... Is there something about Rita and Sorata thinking that reminds you of something? What experience did you have that enforces your anger at them?
For me, the personal freedom to choose your own destiny is fundamental to my philosophy of living. So the idea that Mashiro should be held accountable to other people for the way she uses or squanders her talents is fundamentally at odds with my beliefs. So this is why I cannot identify with the way Rita is behaving, because her actions are at fundamental odds with that core principle. Of course I understand that she is concerned, and sees herself as a friend, and wants to appeal to Mashiro to consider what she's given up. But, as I said, I think her approach is inappropriate (and is founded in a slanted concept of personal responsibility). Of course, I suspect that she will come to this realization in the show and be able to express her genuine concern properly in the end (and do what she needs to do). I am a bit... surprised (?) that the nature of that realization may not be clear to people in the audience if they believe that Rita's underlying belief is sound. That is more puzzling (?) to me than anything presented in the show itself.


Anyway, because this is a philosophical belief, I'm not sure that everyone will be able to agree about it in the end. But I hope that at least the belief/philosophy is clearer now. I will try to leave it at that.
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Old 2012-12-08, 04:14   Link #234
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I only skimmed the posts but I agree with relentlessflame. A person's decision is theirs alone to take. People don't really have "obligations".

However, I do think people who care for a person have the right (not natural or lawful, but one that's pragmatic and will always be exercised, like it or not) to at least request that the person consider things they would otherwise not consider when trying to make a decision. The person should still have, and, in reality, always does have, complete control over what decision they make but when people truly invest themselves into a person, the least the person do is try to consider their perspective. It is simply courtesy. But courtesy isn't an obligation. It's not a binding mandate. Nothing in life is.

Whether or not people can accept choices other people make is for people doing the accepting to decide too. It's just that unless they have a very very strong reason (immediate harm to a living being of a pretty strong severity comes to mind) to intervene, they have no right to interfere whether or not they agree with the choices being made.

People have no "obligation" to conform to other people but it's impossible to live a functional life if you're going to be that stubbornly idealistic. It's also impossible for people to not consider the feelings of those that care for them anyway so the point's a bit moot and thank god (whether or not "he" exists), for that.
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Old 2012-12-08, 07:24   Link #235
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Use of the word "caretaker" was obviously a poor choice of words in this situation given the literal nature of what is going on. I apologize for the poor choice of words. What I meant was she's not her legal guardian any more then Sorata is just because they're "assigned" to "Mashiro Duty". Neither of them are in a position to make life decisions on her behalf, and that is not what they're being asked or expected to do. They're supporting her. Do I think that makes them interested parties? Yes, and very interested even. But I don't believe this gives either of them (or us) the right to judge her decision-making process based on not making the choice they think she should make (or not agreeing with her reasons why).
Come on. With all due respect, this is a ridiculous position. People judge the actions and decisions of others all the time. This is especially true when it comes to the actions and decisions of people in the public eye, like Mashiro.

Your position is simply out of whack with basic human nature. And really, I think it's good that people judge the actions and decisions of others. It encourages good behavior and careful decision-making. It encourages us to consider others and their viewpoints in our decision-making process. And isn't that a good thing? Or do you think that each individual should be an island unto himself/herself?

The key is not to always ignore or casually accept the decisions that other people make, but to recognize where it's our place to quietly disagree (if we do so) and where it's acceptable for us to intervene.


Quote:
My problem is with this very concept of "I can accept your life choice as long as I agree with your decision-making process". And what if her "decision-making process" doesn't live up to your standards?
Then I will think that her decision-making process is flawed, and likely says something about her character and/or intelligence.


Quote:
Why are you assuming that she may have a faulty decision-making process just because she didn't make the choice you think she should have made?
I'm assuming no such thing. I made this clear in my last post on this thread.


Quote:
The whole thing starts at the very base and works its way up. If the base assumption is "everyone has the right to make their own decisions about how to live their lives, free from the judgement of others",
Then that is a fatally flawed assumption. People judge the actions and decisions of others every day. Just look at the debates that frequently take off here on Anime Suki about some of the more controversial anime characters. Heck, just look at the debate surrounding Rita on this thread. Are you not judging her actions? Are you respecting her right to make her own decisions about how to live her life, free from your judgement, as well as the judgement of others?

When a person makes a decision that will inevitably impact other people, it is basic human nature for people to hold opinions on that person's decision. It is inevitable, and it is intrinsic to who we are as human beings.


Quote:
I don't agree with this. In my view, Mashiro has no such "obligation". She was born with a gift, and she can choose how to use that gift however she wishes. She is not responsible in this regard to anyone but to herself, and no one should guilt her into thinking otherwise. That doesn't mean she either "should" or will make a "selfish choice", but I think she could, and if she does I think no one has the right to question it or call her out on it.
Again, this is a ridiculous standard. It really is. I'm going to demonstrate why shortly.


Quote:
Instead, I believe each person should live their own life in accordance with their own values, and let their example inspire others to make like decisions for themselves.
If a person's decision is so weak that it can't stand up to a little bit of critique or persuasion then maybe it should be critiqued and persuaded against.


Quote:
For me, the personal freedom to choose your own destiny is fundamental to my philosophy of living.
No one here is arguing that you don't have such personal freedom. But part of life is that people will sometimes disagree with your decisions, and in some instances they will even make that known to you. Those people have the same personal freedoms that you do, and that includes freedom of expression. Which, by the way, is something that your philosophy runs completely afoul of. Now, let's go back to your earlier quote.

Quote:
That doesn't mean she either "should" or will make a "selfish choice", but I think she could, and if she does I think no one has the right to question it or call her out on it.
Bold emphasis mine.

Saying that no one has the right to question Shiina's decision is essentially saying that no one has a right to voice a disagreeing opinion on Shiina's decision. And that runs completely contrary to the very concept of Freedom of Expression. In actual fact, people in your country and mine have a legal right to question whatever decision they want to question.

And no, this doesn't fall under "slander and libel" either. It's not slanderous or libelous to simply express a disagreeing opinion.


Quote:
So the idea that Mashiro should be held accountable to other people for the way she uses or squanders her talents is fundamentally at odds with my beliefs.
Well, to be blunt, I think that your beliefs here are very flawed. You've taken your conception of freedom of choice to such an extreme that it's now running afoul of freedom of expression. People have a right to make their own choices, but they don't have a right to never face contrary opinions over them. People do have a right to express contrary opinions over the decisions of others.
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Old 2012-12-08, 07:45   Link #236
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^ hmm I see what you're saying, pretty solid points. but isn't Rita doing MORE than " expressing contrary opinion over the decision of others?"

She is in fact actively trying to subvert Mashiro's decision, using questionable methods (and involving others to boot). I don't really see what the problem is in just sitting down and calmly discussing the situation and the options with Mashiro over a cup of TEA!. you know like try to understand each other... >>> which amusingly enough is the more common "British" stereotype you see around , and well I think that's a pretty Gentlemanly/womanly way to go about it. That's how Darjeeling-sama would do it hehe
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Old 2012-12-08, 08:08   Link #237
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by garbage View Post
^ hmm I see what you're saying, pretty solid points. but isn't Rita doing MORE than " expressing contrary opinion over the decision of others?"

She is in fact actively trying to subvert Mashiro's decision, using questionable methods (and involving others to boot). I don't really see what the problem is in just sitting down and calmly discussing the situation and the options with Mashiro over a cup of TEA!. you know like try to understand each other... >>> which amusingly enough is the more common "British" stereotype you see around , and well I think that's a pretty Gentlemanly/womanly way to go about it. That's how Darjeeling-sama would do it hehe
Eh? What's so questionable about her methods? Bringing Sorata and the others to see Mashiro's art? As the old saying goes- showing is better than telling. A picture is literally worth that thousand words.
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Old 2012-12-08, 10:59   Link #238
garbage
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Sleeping in Sorata's room, knowing that this would irk Mashiro
Not to mention Flirting with him (don't tell me that's not a calculated action on her part)
Not listening to mashiro, just shrugging it off as inconsequential, and insisting on her own views, when Mashiro is clearly intent on her own decisions.
Rita : "I can't let Mashiro learn manga here"...> like who is she to decide what Mashiro can and WANT to learn?
and what's with that "she'll break you" warning?

yes viewing the painting was good, should have been the first thing she did with a heartfelt talk,not a one sided dictation, and definitely not any of that hullabalooh. She should bring everyone, not just Sorata (again a calculated move on her part, with a deliberate intent on forcing the issue by getting "agreement" from her "owner", even the usage of the word "date" right there, was meant by her to solicit a reaction from Mashiro.
What's with the "I'll stay with sorata until you come back to England with me?" wouldn't that be forcing the issue?

well acceptable or not might be open to debate, depends on the person i guess. That is why i said questionable, 'cause i definitely question the motives governing her chosen course of action. I certainly didn't like it myself, I'm pretty sure Mashiro herself was no fan of what Rita was doing there too.

again the question remains isn't this already more than EXPRESSING & DISCUSSING her own personal opinions?
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Old 2012-12-08, 11:53   Link #239
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Then that is a fatally flawed assumption. People judge the actions and decisions of others every day. Just look at the debates that frequently take off here on Anime Suki about some of the more controversial anime characters. Heck, just look at the debate surrounding Rita on this thread. Are you not judging her actions? Are you respecting her right to make her own decisions about how to live her life, free from your judgement, as well as the judgement of others?

When a person makes a decision that will inevitably impact other people, it is basic human nature for people to hold opinions on that person's decision. It is inevitable, and it is intrinsic to who we are as human beings.
I figured you might resort to this type of trickery like "aha! caught you there!". No. Someone is allowed to make choices on how to use their own talents and gifts in their own life. But because each person has that control of their own destiny, they have to respect each other people's right to that own control. If someone takes actions that seem to infringe on someone else's right to control their own destiny, of course I'm going to judge that, because the base is "I'm the only one who can control my own life". This is the same reason I'm against all sorts of recognized crimes too. This is not a "do not judge anyone ever" stance; you judge actions based on how they infringe on other's people's freedom to make their own choices. And it's the actions taken (not the probably-good intentions down there somewhere) that I'm judging.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Saying that no one has the right to question Shiina's decision is essentially saying that no one has a right to voice a disagreeing opinion on Shiina's decision. And that runs completely contrary to the very concept of Freedom of Expression. In actual fact, people in your country and mine have a legal right to question whatever decision they want to question.
Oh she (and you) can say whatever she damn well pleases. Do you really think I have the authority to forbid her from saying what she wants? (Particularly in this show, lol.) Of course not. I'm expressing my own opinion, after all. "Freedom of Expression" is a right enshrined by law in many countries. But, as you pointed out, you're not free from the consequences of that expression either. I think Mashiro has the right, for example, to shut the door in her face. I think Mashiro has the right to consider her a busybody, and to think that she's a hypocrite who maybe should get her own life in order first. And I think the consequence of Rita's actions, unless adjusted, could threaten the friendship with Mashiro that she almost certainly wants to have continue. This is all, again, completely aside the issue of whether Mashiro might consider taking up painting again, or any legitimate concerns Rita may understandably have about her well-being. I think her choosing to express herself in this current way is counter-productive and destructive to their relationship so probably not in Rita's own best interest. This is exactly why I've been saying all along that Rita's methods are misguided; I think the show has already acknowledged this, and will resolve it in the next episode.

Anyway, if that still isn't enough to clarify, then I guess that's it.
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Old 2012-12-08, 11:56   Link #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garbage View Post
Sleeping in Sorata's room, knowing that this would irk Mashiro
Not to mention Flirting with him (don't tell me that's not a calculated action on her part) (...)even the usage of the word "date" right there, was meant by her to solicit a reaction from Mashiro.
What's with the "I'll stay with sorata until you come back to England with me?" wouldn't that be forcing the issue?

If Mashiro is willing to give up manga because someone is flirting with a guy she likes then I'd say her interest in manga wasn't big to begin with.


Quote:
Not listening to mashiro, just shrugging it off as inconsequential, and insisting on her own views, when Mashiro is clearly intent on her own decisions.
Listening to what? Mashiro just said "no" and threw her out of the house without any explanation as to her decision

Quote:
Rita : "I can't let Mashiro learn manga here"...> like who is she to decide what Mashiro can and WANT to learn?
A friend,there's been many times in my life when I thought to myself "I can't let this friend do this"

Quote:
and what's with that "she'll break you" warning?
It means mashiro and rita have a backstory that hasn't been revealed in the anime yet

Quote:
(again a calculated move on her part, with a deliberate intent on forcing the issue by getting "agreement" from her "owner", even the usage of the word "date" right there, was meant by her to solicit a reaction from Mashiro.
She had no guarantee that Sorata would have the reaction he did,she didn't force sorata to agree with her,he just did all on his own.

That's not to say I don't think Rita is misguided and approve of everything she does but she's not some selfish person that wants to profit from Mashiro's talent by exploiting her
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