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Old 2012-12-08, 13:52   Link #3481
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Politically it is better for the Left that all the Fiscal Conservatives join the Libertarians instead.
I also think that in the long run it is bad news if the sane republicans join the democrats and start winning states and representatives in both houses in the next four years, but the libertarian party is a joke, no politician that is serious about his career would join them. Sadly all those voters that call themselves libertarian are closet republicans (or worse, tea partiers).

Seems someone thinks this comment deserves bad rep, nothing is more uncomfortable than the truth.

Last edited by mangamuscle; 2012-12-08 at 22:41.
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Old 2012-12-08, 14:29   Link #3482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Someone else did make the point that this isn't a good thing for the actual LEFT people. If everyone sane joins the Democrats then the party isn't left any more. It means the GOP disappears but so would the Democrats as we know it. Politically it is better for the Left that all the Fiscal Conservatives join the Libertarians instead.
the insane left will leave and join the Green.

GOP - Extreme Right
Dems - Center
Green - Extreme Left

Libertarian - out there somewhere.
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Old 2012-12-08, 21:42   Link #3483
Xacual
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
the insane left will leave and join the Green.

GOP - Extreme Right
Dems - Center
Green - Extreme Left

Libertarian - out there somewhere.
I think it's more likely the GOP would just die off like what happened in the early 1800s. We had only one big political party, the Republicans for a while after the Federalists fell out of existence, until Andrew Jackson lost the Presidency and started up the Democratic Republican Party.

Eventually the Democratic Party will fracture into smaller groups.
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Old 2012-12-08, 22:01   Link #3484
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by Xacual View Post
Eventually the Democratic Party will fracture into smaller groups.
... or follows China's example

In the 20th century my country had for 70 years a one party system and it was dubbed "The perfect dictatorsoft" (a word game, in spanish dictatorship ends in dura which means hard
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Old 2012-12-08, 22:07   Link #3485
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Only work if the people are willing to vote only for one party. And even then, there will still need to be more than one person running.

And, at least for President, there are term limits.

In California, the new rules actually allow this to happen. The election goes for the two candidates that got the most votes during the primaries. Even if both are from the same party.
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Old 2012-12-08, 23:20   Link #3486
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Only work if the people are willing to vote only for one party. And even then, there will still need to be more than one person running.

And, at least for President, there are term limits.

In California, the new rules actually allow this to happen. The election goes for the two candidates that got the most votes during the primaries. Even if both are from the same party.
The GOP isn't going to just vanish by any means. They might still hold the House for a while and as everyone points out, there is no immediate third party to challenge them. But the good news is that this might cause a change in the First-Past-The-Post system if the GOP is desperate enough.

And it's not like they wouldn't hang around even if all they have left are the Crazies.

If Democrats grow too big, the Blue Dogs would just split off and form a new Republican party. That's how it rolls.
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Old 2012-12-08, 23:51   Link #3487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
the insane left will leave and join the Green.

GOP - Extreme Right
Dems - Center
Green - Extreme Left

Libertarian - out there somewhere.
You forgot the independents.

Methinks a list with them would go more like this.

Consitution Party - Extreme Right
GOP - Right
Libertarians - Center-Right
Independents - Center
Dems - Left
Green - Extreme Left

What say you Xellos?
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Old 2012-12-09, 00:07   Link #3488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
You forgot the independents.
By definition, the independents are independent and do not belong to a party (beyond those smart enough to join a party so they can vote in primaries, since there's no negative side to being a member of a party).

Quote:
Methinks a list with them would go more like this.
Methinks you're a bit nuts if you think two parties will split into five (I removed independents for the above stated reason).
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Old 2012-12-09, 00:21   Link #3489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
You forgot the independents.

Methinks a list with them would go more like this.

Consitution Party - Extreme Right
GOP - Right
Libertarians - Center-Right
Independents - Center
Dems - Left
Green - Extreme Left

What say you Xellos?
I don't really think the independents are actually a single unified group in the "supposed center" like you seem to think. And The Dems are a Conservative Party, in the classical sense.
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Old 2012-12-09, 00:47   Link #3490
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There are no more truly progressive parties with any degree of penetration in office anymore. The Democratic Party has shifted so far right as of late that it's almost indistinguishable from the Republican Party of not-that-long-ago.

It would be far better if the GOP and Democrats would stop pretending to be different and simply merge to form one party. They even have a catchy name, already made for themselves--the One Percent Party!
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Old 2012-12-09, 00:51   Link #3491
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Odd. I keep getting told they are far left. But I think that it is from conservatives that tend to look at social issues and/or consider things like ObamaCare as infringments on the Constitution and Freedom.
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Old 2012-12-09, 01:09   Link #3492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
By definition, the independents are independent and do not belong to a party (beyond those smart enough to join a party so they can vote in primaries, since there's no negative side to being a member of a party).



Methinks you're a bit nuts if you think two parties will split into five (I removed independents for the above stated reason).
You don't think the two major parties have been bleeding off to other smaller parties over the last few decades?
The independents could very well form their own party as it stands now.
There is already an attempt at making them another party.
It's called the Independent Voters of America.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FDW View Post
I don't really think the independents are actually a single unified group in the "supposed center" like you seem to think. And The Dems are a Conservative Party, in the classical sense.
I agree on the part that the Democrats are becoming classical conservatives, but that is because Joe Overton's so called "Window" is moving right in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
There are no more truly progressive parties with any degree of penetration in office anymore. The Democratic Party has shifted so far right as of late that it's almost indistinguishable from the Republican Party of not-that-long-ago.

It would be far better if the GOP and Democrats would stop pretending to be different and simply merge to form one party. They even have a catchy name, already made for themselves--the One Percent Party!
I agree with you.
The paleo-Progressives are long gone.
What passes for progressive today is basically corporate-socialism/corporatism.

The Republicans and Democrats are akin to the old Mensheviks and Bolsheviks. Both were just different wings of the same political party.
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Old 2012-12-09, 03:16   Link #3493
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Odd. I keep getting told they are far left. But I think that it is from conservatives that tend to look at social issues and/or consider things like ObamaCare as infringments on the Constitution and Freedom.
And as I kept saying, if Obama is Far Left, then technically everyone except Saudi Arabia are Communists.

Is Britain Far Left? Is Germany Far Left? Is Israel Far Left?

If Everyone Else is Far Left, then aren't they the real centre?
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Old 2012-12-09, 04:44   Link #3494
synaesthetic
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Apparently the Doppler Effect works in politics, too!

Too bad that doesn't actually mean they're zooming light-years away from us.
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Old 2012-12-09, 05:10   Link #3495
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I've been saying this since the 80s ... I haven't moved very much at all. Its the Label Graph (left-right) that is rubber banding to the right. I can kind of understand how the young might not realize that (particularly young neo-cons) but the ones my age are quite certainly brain-dead if they pretend there hasn't been the screaming sound of the axis hurtling to infinity towards the right.
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Old 2012-12-09, 09:19   Link #3496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I can kind of understand how the young might not realize that (particularly young neo-cons)
Still, I found the number of reactions such as this kinda scary, of course I'm sure there's plenty of well educated conservatives but the number of ignorant tweets like these following the election alarmed me.
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Old 2012-12-09, 09:29   Link #3497
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
You don't think the two major parties have been bleeding off to other smaller parties over the last few decades?
I'm saying they won't fracture enough to create 5 major parties. People are too used to the 2-party system such that, even if they did create 5 major parties, within 1 election it would be back to 2 parties after it was figured out which two on each end of the spectrum got the most support.

Quote:
The independents could very well form their own party as it stands now.
There is already an attempt at making them another party.
It's called the Independent Voters of America.
Then they wouldn't be independent anymore. You seem to be ignoring logic here. By the very definition of independent, if they formed a party, they would no longer be independent. They would be <insert party here>. They can call that party independent if they want, but that'd just be changing the definition of the word. Actually sounds rather political of them, now that I think about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
the number of ignorant tweets
Well there's your problem.
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Old 2012-12-09, 09:58   Link #3498
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
You don't think the two major parties have been bleeding off to other smaller parties over the last few decades?
If that is the case they have not been doing it quite irrelevantly. Here in Mexico (like in Europe) the tiny political parties do have seats in one or both houses of the legislative branch, so they are part of the national political dynamic. In the USA outside the two big political parties it is "much ado about nothing", those tiny parties have never influenced the laws of the land and there is no reason to think they ever will.
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Old 2012-12-09, 13:41   Link #3499
Vexx
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Still, I found the number of reactions such as this kinda scary, of course I'm sure there's plenty of well educated conservatives but the number of ignorant tweets like these following the election alarmed me.
The "mussolini thug" faction (read up on history) is anti-intellectual, isn't informed on history, and has a very murky understanding of the world outside their neighborhood much less other countries. Anything complex is met with "Murrica, Fuck Yeah!" go-to memes.
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Old 2012-12-09, 14:04   Link #3500
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I've been saying this since the 80s ... I haven't moved very much at all. Its the Label Graph (left-right) that is rubber banding to the right. I can kind of understand how the young might not realize that (particularly young neo-cons) but the ones my age are quite certainly brain-dead if they pretend there hasn't been the screaming sound of the axis hurtling to infinity towards the right.
To bring up an old video I linked back in the other politics thread, you're not wrong at all. It's backed by science!

YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

The answer, for the people who don't want to watch or don't like Maddow, is that yes, both parties have shifted further right, especially Republicans.
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