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Old 2012-12-06, 15:54   Link #31301
AuraTwilight
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Define what you want me to explain. It's literally pretty clear-cut, isn't it? The two Beatrices talk, and then the Meta-self takes over the Piece-self for a heavy plot rewrite.
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Old 2012-12-06, 18:10   Link #31302
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Define what you want me to explain. It's literally pretty clear-cut, isn't it? The two Beatrices talk, and then the Meta-self takes over the Piece-self for a heavy plot rewrite.
Well, why does meta-Beatrice show Battler this transition, and what's the difference between the old and new Beatrice? You're calling one of them piece and the other meta, but the piece version disappears in a meta scene, and the meta version becomes the character on the game board.
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Old 2012-12-06, 20:13   Link #31303
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Well, why does meta-Beatrice show Battler this transition, and what's the difference between the old and new Beatrice? You're calling one of them piece and the other meta, but the piece version disappears in a meta scene, and the meta version becomes the character on the game board.
Honestly I've been tempted to think that the one talking to Battler was the Meta version and the one that took over was the Piece version.

Quote:
With this, are your regrets at an end......?
"....................................H, hmm..."
For even a hopeless bet, regrets will remain if you do not take it.
......That is enough.
The betting itself has meaning.
".........That may be true. ...In that case, this is...the end of my regrets, and my game."
What will you do...?
"...Who knows. .........I'm not interested at all anymore. ......Sorry, but I wish to leave the game board now."
.....................
......I see. ......I understand.
"I will take over for the rest of the game. .........You may rest."
"......Yeah. .............."
"All that remains, I will finish. .........You may forget everything and bury your head in your pillow. A feather futon should gently protect you from everything."
".........I'll be counting on you, ......to finish up the rest."
"Leave it to me. ......Leave everything else to me, and sleep."
Basically the Beato who takes over will finish the game (or, if you prefer, the tale who likely was supposed to have a sad ending like the other 3) while the other will leave it because she's not interested in it anymore.

MetaBeato also said to Battler she won't finish the game, just abandon it and that's what the first Beato does.

Quote:
"I am not giving up. I am just ending it. No, I won't even end it. I am just abandoning this game for all eternity."
The manga also has an interesting imagery as it shows a picture of Beato from behind but half of it is MetaBeato while the other half is the Beato talking to Battler. However it removed the scene between the two Beato which is a pity.

On a sidenote. No idea if it's a hint but in the manga version of Ep 8 Lion is shown as clearly taller than Beato.
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Old 2012-12-06, 23:03   Link #31304
Valkama
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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Say is the manga canon?

I know its been done more than enough but from what I can tell it certainly has quite the amount of things leading to Rosa.

Examples:
The letters Nanjos son, Sabakichi and Ange received being adressed to Hokkaido which is where Rosa was with "her boyfriend" (Sent at the 3rd, received after incident) or Evatrice mentioning Rosas past intentions of becoming a witch and believing in the forest witch and wishing to fly around like a butterfly as well as her relation to spider webs and having said herself she tried to solve the riddle in the past.
And she trapped butterflied in webs while the people on the Island were once referred as butterflies.
It also shows Battler seeing Rosa dead with her face completely torn apart.
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Old 2012-12-07, 06:29   Link #31305
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Originally Posted by Joeyscraggy View Post
Not only in your video, Renall, but also in this thread (i think), somebody mentioned that in the meta scene, Erika threw some blue stakes at the cabinet, that could represent bullets.
KnownNoMore uses this as the explanation for Kanon no longer existing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
In the tales no one seems to notice it much.
I mean, if two servants were to tell me that my grandfather summoned demons that killed some of my relatives and made others fall in pitfalls that magically appeared first I would think they're joking then I would check if they took drugs.

Yet, Battler and Co swallowed this lie effortlessly.
If you are talking about EP4, that's not how it went. Gohda and Kumasawa never mentioned witnessing anything magical, only that Kinzo had minions and that they were killing people as some kind of ceremony. Battler didn't hear anything about magic until Jessica's phone call... Well, that's how it was for Piece-Battler. Meta-Battler is a different story.

Then again, in Our Confessions Krauss and Natsuhi brazenly claimed there to be a demon.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
And yet she's presenting them with their relatives with their faces sanded off. Even if it's fake, and some of them know it's fake, at least one person does not know this. To suggest the expected reaction to this is "Well shit, I better buckle down and solve that word puzzle while some face-mangling lunatic is running around" seems a bit curious at best.
It's illogical. It's that whole coy girl in love thing. She doesn't expect that reaction, but she hopes for it to work out somehow anyway.

Not everything she does has to, or even should, make logical sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Let's look at it this way, though. Most people are fairly sure that Yasu-culprit was Ryuukishi's intended answer. But the majority of people also seem less than satisfied with all the motives for Yasu that have been raised so far.

I've got a question then: why are we so sure that Yasu is the killer on the gameboard? I don't say that to imply that there's no good reason, but because I want to be specific. Is there anything that happens on the board that proves Yasu killed those people, or is our certainty only based on things that happened off the gameboard, in the Core Arcs, or in the Ryuukishi interviews?
There isn't really anything. Which is much of the reason I don't think there is a game board motive. In fact, I'd go as far to say that if you are searching for game-board motives without the meta-world, you also would have to look at each game-board as its own story, because once you even start having to cross-reference multiple games, (multiple alternate realities of "Yasus") you're already looking at it from a meta-perspective.

And the results by looking at each game individually are quite different from looking at the whole story from a meta perspective...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
God only knows what happened in Alliance
Actually, that thing about Kanon being the 9th victim tells us more than I had originally thought. If you make the reasonable assumption that "Kyrie's group" really means Kyrie, Krauss, Nanjo, Shannon, and Kanon then that means there are only 10 candidates for the 8 people who died before him: The 6 FT victims, the 2 ST victims, and Gohda and Kumasawa. If G&K were actually killed after Kanon it would mean that all of the FT and ST victims were truly dead when Kanon was killed. And if G&K were killed before Kanon, it would mean that exactly 2 of the FT and ST "victims" were still alive when Kanon was killed.
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Old 2012-12-07, 13:10   Link #31306
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Well, why does meta-Beatrice show Battler this transition, and what's the difference between the old and new Beatrice? You're calling one of them piece and the other meta, but the piece version disappears in a meta scene, and the meta version becomes the character on the game board.
The intent is obvious; Beatrice is showing Battler that his failing to remember is literally derailing the plat.
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Old 2012-12-07, 16:10   Link #31307
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The intent is obvious; Beatrice is showing Battler that his failing to remember is literally derailing the plat.
Okay, then I guess we basically agree on that point. The plot that gets derailed was created by both meta-Beatrice (or she wouldn't have shown this scene) and piece-Beatrice (or she wouldn't have approached Battler in that way). Both Beatrices challenged Battler to remember, and both were utterly disappointed when he failed, so much that they ended up taking their own lives shortly afterward.
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Old 2012-12-07, 21:17   Link #31308
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Okay, then I guess we basically agree on that point. The plot that gets derailed was created by both meta-Beatrice (or she wouldn't have shown this scene) and piece-Beatrice (or she wouldn't have approached Battler in that way). Both Beatrices challenged Battler to remember, and both were utterly disappointed when he failed, so much that they ended up taking their own lives shortly afterward.
I think the ending we saw was, more or less, planned. Likely by then Yasu had already killed everyone except maybe Maria.
The only thing that could have been changed if Battler had remembered was maybe for her not to kill herself and/or give him a way out of the island... although it's also possible that the optional ending she planned was for her and Battler to die together and reach the golden land where everyone else was.
Or maybe not even that.
In Ep 3 even if Beato beats EvaBeatrice, Eva goes on and kills PieceBattler so it's possible a 'bad ending' is always what will happen on the gameboard.
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Old 2012-12-09, 10:41   Link #31309
Kiltias
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Ryukishi said he would add extra clues in the manga, which is why in EP 8 manga version the game that Ange plays with her relatives is pretty different and filled with clues. However I don't know if he started adding clues right from the first volumes of the manga or in those he gave the manga authors more freedom.

If i don't remember wrong in EP 3 there were clues pointing to Kyrie/Kyrie's gun being the one who shoot at Hideyoshi for example.



That number was required to access to the bank account.
I just find it funny that 1-4 has a so many things pointing to Rosa and even the knock in EP 5, Rosa plays an important role.

I mean for example in EP4 there is the implication that the black witch is the chain of pain and suffering on someone caused by someone else pushing it into to them that can only be seen with love.As in, Ange couldn't see the Black Witch and the chains in Eva because she hated her.
Eva pushing her pain and sadness onto Rosa and Rosa onto Maria yet the very latter is stated to sever this chain with her own magic of happiness which is why Maria mentions her mother is possessed by the Black Witch when shes mad.
As in its the pain Eva causes Rosa that turns her mad. This can be seen in EP 2 where Eva mocks Rosa cause Maria behaves so immature.
What happens next:
Rosa beats Maria.
Then we have that Sakutarou turns quite big when Maria and Beatrice are about to form Mariage Sorcerie while we know Rosa intended to make Sakutarou a Big Plush.
I mean consider that the Alliance of Maria and Beatrice is stated to a groundbreaking magical compendium giving Beatrice immense power being the reason that she gained endless power.

Then consider the parrallel between Maria and Ange and that the latter was part of the Alliance as well yet, her "mother" was also severed by the chains of the black witch.
Ange herself wanted to learn Marias magic."Her magic creates smiles.I want to become like Maria onee-chan too.Teach me magic, Maria Onee-chan."

I mean, it doesn't seem farfetched to me if Mariage Sorcerie was the love between Maria and Rosa the power that "Beatrice" gained being happiness with Maria as the reason for it.
Thus Ange became a member as well but she was supposed to fix Evas pain.
"If a proper witch, who knew white magic were near Eva Oba-san, maybe Oba-san could have been saved (Image of Maria appears) and yet....wasn't that supposed to be me? I had learned from Maria onee-chan a magic to make people happy...if I had saved her with that magic wouldn't we have built a future with a completely different relationship?I've been hating Eva Oba-san all this time until now, that's why I could not notice the black witch by her side, since I didn't have love for Eva oba-san."

I mean if you think about then that would explain Evatrice in EP 3 killing Rosa despite Eva being in her room holding Hideyoshis hands.
her fever began before the incident.
I mean look:
Eva of all people solved the Epitaph then we see Evatrice killing Rosa and Maria over and over.
See it this way:
Rosa was struck by the Black Witch again turning mad.This explains why Evatrice tells the things like Rosa dreaming to become a witch, flying around like a Butterfly and trapping butterflies in webs.
Rosa was reminded about the pain Eva causes on her, however I find it also important that after solving the Riddle Eva is all "Let's not tell the others" to which Rosa applies this is against the Rules.
That's why I see it is possible that Rosa killed Maria but then suicided.
Assuming Rosa is Beatrice then we got a scenario of:
Rosa: WHY DID EVA OF ALL PEOPLE HAVE TO SOLVE THE RIDDLE!?WHAT ABOUT MY DREAMS!
Maria: Come back Mama!
Rosa: Shut up!/strangle Marias.
Maria: You promised to be happy with me....
Rosa: Maria...Maria!Wha-What have I done!?
/suicides.

Think about the scenes where both Rosa and Beatrice appear as well.
Episode 1:
Rosa comes from the Adults conference and gets mad at Maria beating her, but then goes out to search Maria in the Garden cause it was raining.
At that moment, Rosa,Maria and Beatrice were all in the Garden.Matter of fact, everyone thought Rosa was napping.
Maria says Beatrice gave her the Umbrella and the two make up.
Episode 2:
Rosa gets mad at Maria after Eva mocks her beating Maria and crushing her candy and telling Maria to stay there forever.
Maria says Beatrice WILL come for her and appears just when Rosa arrives.
The two make up.
Episode 3:
Beatrice appears to both after Evatrice killed them over and over.
Beatrice apologizes to Maria that she can't be the Golden Witch anymore breaking the promise of getting along with her mother.
Next, Maria is strangled and Rosa ends up on the fence.
Episode 4:
1st Twilight:
Gaap,Ronove,Virgilia,45,410 and 00.
Beatrice is missing when we see Rosa killed and Maria isn't there.
We see Beatrice appearing however when Rosa and Maria had their biggest fight ever.


For me at least, there is little doubt that Beatrice is connected to the relationship Rosa and Maria share.

As for Episode 5:
Rosa is the key to solve the letter and knock as well.
Rosa left along with Natsuhi and Krauss cause she got a fever yet Nanjo said she came to the guesthouse at 1am despite Rosa having left before the drinks arrived (Midnight).


I'm not too fond of Rosatrice yet the Manga puts a clear emphasis on it.
I don't remember this from the novel but:
"We called a rescue ship and took them to hospital but both servant and child died."


Even then what about the call from the man at the time where it was impossible for Shannon and Kanon as they were with everyone else in the dining room.

Perhaps what Lambdadelta said is important cause:
"The Role of the Golden Witch Beatrice, is over!The only roles you and your furniture can play in my game are losers and corpses!"
Sounds to me like:
"In my game you are no longer the Golden Witch, in my game you are merely a victim!"
Potentially implying that the role of Beatrice changed.
As in:
EP 1-4 = Rosa
However Rosa was changed by Lambdadelta from being witch to victim.

"I just need to sacrifice one piece to change the flow of the game to the witch side, thats you!"
So among the 6 sacrifices = Beatrice?
Think about it if you flip the chessboard.
What favours the witch side the most?
If the piece Beatrice/Culprit got taken out themselves.Its impossible for the Human side to win in such way if Beatrice herself was taken out.
"Lambdadelta never shows mercy or consideration!"

"An amateurish magic circle."
"Some human is trying to take the role of Lady Beatrice."
"Such an uncouth murder would only put Lady Beatrice to shame."
Man on the phone:
"I wanted you to be absent to prepare a party for you.You're the guest of the honour, mom!"

Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-12-09 at 16:16.
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Old 2012-12-09, 19:59   Link #31310
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If you're going to use the Manga for evidence for Rosatrice you might as well use the whole thing. EP1 Chapter 8 when Battler discovers the corpses Rosa is clearly dead. I find it funny how KNM uses the Anime as evidence all over his videos but doesn't even touch upon the Manga's which should be considered equally as credible if not more credible. The Manga version clearly disproves Rosatrice although through some illogical means you can make Rosa survive in EP1 in both the Anime and VN.

TBH EP1 is written better with Kanon as the culprit anyways. Throughout the entirety of Episode 1 Battler is conflicting about whether or not a 19th person is alive and even considers that one of the people in the first twilight faked their death when in actuality the culprit was in front of him the whole time who he never even considered to be the culprit. With Rosatrice it's just Rosa faked her death and then all locked rooms are solved in a cheap and boring fashion. Not to mention episode 1 is supposed to be solvable on it's own but if you use the Rosatrice solution then literally 5 other people have the same ability of being the culprit and other people, namely Rudolf and Kyrie, would of have even been better hinted at than Rosa. Shannon would be cleaner to turn into the culprit than Rosa. Hell even Gohda is on the same grounds for culprit as Rosa. That's atleast for EP1 which is supposedly solvable on it's own.
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Old 2012-12-09, 22:30   Link #31311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
If you're going to use the Manga for evidence for Rosatrice you might as well use the whole thing. EP1 Chapter 8 when Battler discovers the corpses Rosa is clearly dead. I find it funny how KNM uses the Anime as evidence all over his videos but doesn't even touch upon the Manga's which should be considered equally as credible if not more credible. The Manga version clearly disproves Rosatrice although through some illogical means you can make Rosa survive in EP1 in both the Anime and VN.

TBH EP1 is written better with Kanon as the culprit anyways. Throughout the entirety of Episode 1 Battler is conflicting about whether or not a 19th person is alive and even considers that one of the people in the first twilight faked their death when in actuality the culprit was in front of him the whole time who he never even considered to be the culprit. With Rosatrice it's just Rosa faked her death and then all locked rooms are solved in a cheap and boring fashion.Not to mention episode 1 is supposed to be solvable on it's own but if you use the Rosatrice solution then literally 5 other people have the same ability of being the culprit[and other people, namely Rudolf and Kyrie, would of have even been better hinted at than Rosa. Shannon would be cleaner to turn into the culprit than Rosa. Hell even Gohda is on the same grounds for culprit as Rosa. That's atleast for EP1 which is supposedly solvable on it's own.
Thanks for reminding me.
That part is more than just a tad arguable.
Especially when of all people Nanjo comfirmed solely Rosas death saying she's "probably dead for at least 6 hours".
Sorry for casting my doubts but if anything has been established its that Nanjo is hardly a trustworthy factor.



You are right then again you rather go with an answer that is yelled at your face instead of a real mystery?
Battler said it himself, hiding the corpses inside the storehouse immediately puts suspicion on the Servants.
Where is the mystery in that?
As Battler said thats the answer ANYONE could arrive at.
Hiding the corpses in a place the servants are affiliated with with the key being in the servants room.
It tells us right from the get go that Servants are involved, scuse me for voicing such an opinion but personally I find it simply a solution that is much too simple.
Especially when in EP2 how Rosa goes on and on about trying to pin it on the Servants and on Kanon.
I mean seriously, so much attention is brought onto the Servants only for it to be true?I know Yasu part of the family but I'm sure you know what I mean.
That never struck as odd even once?
With 8 novels altogether it was the most obvious solution from the start?
Sorry but that's just something I cannot comprehend at all that for years the answer is supposed to the most obvious in a novel full of illusions.
Quote:
The Manga version clearly disproves Rosatrice
No it doesn't.Unless you wanna ignore points such as:

"I just need to sacrifice one piece to change the flow of the game to the witch side, thats you!"
"The Role of the Golden Witch Beatrice, is over!The only roles you and your furniture can play in my game are losers and corpses!"
"An amateurish magic circle."
"Some human is trying to take the role of Lady Beatrice."
"Such an uncouth murder would only put Lady Beatrice to shame."

That is clear evidence.Tell me what else did Lambdadelta mean?
She wants to sacrifice the piece of Beatrice, tells her role as Witch is over and someone else is stated to imitate her.
What happens?The sacrifices for the key follow.
And again, there is NOTHING that is better to change the flow towards the witch side if Beatrice herself got taken out, eliminating the culprit of the previous games and a new Culprit being in the game.
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Old 2012-12-09, 22:39   Link #31312
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Pretty sure Ryukishi put the servants under suspicion so we would think that the servants COULDN'T have done it (after all, why would the possibility that was mentioned within the narrative be the correct answer?). A reverse red-herring.

Plus, as far as the story goes, it would just be absurd if none of the characters mentioned anything about that.
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Old 2012-12-10, 07:15   Link #31313
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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
As for Episode 5:
Rosa is the key to solve the letter and knock as well.
Rosa left along with Natsuhi and Krauss cause she got a fever yet Nanjo said she came to the guesthouse at 1am despite Rosa having left before the drinks arrived (Midnight).
This is incorrect.
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Old 2012-12-10, 08:37   Link #31314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
That's why I see it is possible that Rosa killed Maria but then suicided.
Nope. Regarding Episode 3 you would clearly ignore Red Truth.
Rosa and Maria are dead.
The causes of death are as Nanjo examined them.
The two, Rosa and Maria, were murdered by another person.


Also, Rosatrice would ignore many elements that were presented during the story, making the solution harder than necessary.
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Old 2012-12-10, 11:28   Link #31315
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Also regarding the servant conspiracy: It wasn't entirely what was suggested in the story. For example, while someone does throw out the idea of Shannon-in-a-dress, they don't suggest that Shannon is the one actively trying to act like she's Beatrice, or that Shannon is somehow the mastermind (or even a murderer). There is a constant unspoken assumption that someone of authority - either Genji on Kinzo's orders or one of the other parents - is putting the servants up to it.

Likewise, Rosa is far more suspicious in Turn than the servants. Yes, she's trying to blame them overtly, but the portrayal of her erratic behavior and unexplained knowledge (she was at the chapel but didn't die, the butterfly landing on her back as she goes upstairs, lying about Kinzo, etc.) and the portrayal of the servants in magic scenes (Kanon defending Jessica with his life) tends to make the reader assume that Rosa is just trying to throw suspicion onto the servants needlessly.

Is it nevertheless a bit hackish that it's sort of true? I guess. But it's not exactly the same thing as somebody guessing the entire conspiracy correctly in the first dozen chapters only to have it pan out exactly as they said seven episodes later.
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Old 2012-12-10, 11:57   Link #31316
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Sorry, I'm a bit out of touch on Rosatrice theories. Does she have the willing support of the servants? If not, a few things don't make sense to me in EP1, like how she got out of the shed and how she got people to lie about Shannon's fake corpse (and why).
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Old 2012-12-10, 12:14   Link #31317
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Sorry, I'm a bit out of touch on Rosatrice theories. Does she have the willing support of the servants? If not, a few things don't make sense to me in EP1, like how she got out of the shed and how she got people to lie about Shannon's fake corpse (and why).
Precious few of us are willing to watch a nine hour video to find out, and I'm not sure anyone here is a supporter, but a few people have skimmed it and might be able to give you some answers here. I'm not actually sure myself, just like I'm not actually sure what Rosa's motive is exactly under this theory.
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Old 2012-12-10, 12:42   Link #31318
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Having watched the whole thing (and agreed with none of it), I can say that KNM's Rosa pretty much never uses the servants as accomplices. He says that he can theoretically see Genji helping out just because of his robotic personality, but he doesn't actually use Genji for much as far as I remember. Also, he believes that Shannon really was dead in that shed and he denies any notion of Shannon and Kanon being the same person.

His way of getting Rosa out of the shed in EP1 is pretty hilarious, he says that she actually broke the shutter from the inside using a tool like Battler did from the outside in EP4's tea party. He also brings up the window as an alternate possibility, though it was specifically stated to be really small in EP4.
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Old 2012-12-10, 12:58   Link #31319
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I'll do Renall a fevor and try to summarize the vids again. I fully watched some month ago and will skim throug them again and post it here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Sorry, I'm a bit out of touch on Rosatrice theories. Does she have the willing support of the servants? If not, a few things don't make sense to me in EP1, like how she got out of the shed and how she got people to lie about Shannon's fake corpse (and why).
Spoiler:


Spoiler:
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Old 2012-12-10, 13:17   Link #31320
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Quote:
Battler is another accomplice in the fifth game.
Uh, this wasn't part of KNM's solution as far as I can remember. Though I think most of us would generally accept it, KNM really doesn't like introducing extra accomplices.
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