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Old 2012-12-10, 18:56   Link #21
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
You think a member of the Imperial Family, no less the Crown Prince, would not receive treatment?
Is it inconceivable that such treatment could have been given privately, without the public learning of?

Serious question. I don't know if Japan has a significant element of the paparazzi in its country.


Quote:
Again, you're looking at Mashiro as if she's a person who grew up in a normal environment.
No, I'm not looking at her like that. But whatever environment Mashiro grew up in, she has now had ample opportunity to learn how to converse more like a normal individual. And yet the same speech patterns continue, and the same misunderstandings continue. Mashiro still has troubles even expressing her basic feelings on things.


Quote:
Everything so far indicates she has NOT, thus the statement "that I think most people would have learned to avoid by now" is not applicable.
I disagree. I think it is applicable. Mashiro has been at Sakurasou for a very significant stretch of time now.


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Blank facial expressions are not real consideration unless other symptoms are prevalent.
Well, I do see other such symptoms. Such as...


Quote:
Preoccupation with certain topics is a common thing (especially for someone whose life was supposedly only about art).
Yes, but when you start combining it with blank facial expressions and some other symptoms, it starts to form a certain picture.



Quote:
At this point you've basically decided on the diagnosis and retroactively looking for the symptoms.
No, not at all. I simply find the very consistent and patterned symptoms to be difficult to properly account for otherwise.

Why should simply growing up in a sheltered environment lead to such blank and expressionless faces, for example? I don't get that, I truly don't.

If Mashiro is autistic, that would answer some questions that currently have no clear-cut answers otherwise.


Frankly, I don't get why you seem so biased against the idea of Mashiro being autistic. Do you think that would make her less of a character?


Quote:
We have a person who had an unusual childhood, and thus we cannot apply the same standards as we would for most other "normal" people.
I think that you're overstating the importance of this.
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Old 2012-12-10, 19:08   Link #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Is it inconceivable that such treatment could have been given privately, without the public learning of?

Serious question. I don't know if Japan has a significant element of the paparazzi in its country.
Let's just say that daring to touch on the Imperial Family is like dangling oneself from the corner of a highrise. It's basically suicidal at least socially.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
No, I'm not looking at her like that. But whatever environment Mashiro grew up in, she has now had ample opportunity to learn how to converse more like a normal individual. And yet the same speech patterns continue, and the same misunderstandings continue. Mashiro still has troubles even expressing her basic feelings on things.

I disagree. I think it is applicable. Mashiro has been at Sakurasou for a very significant stretch of time now.
I guess this is where our individual opinions come in. I don't see her time in Sakurasou has having been that ample amount of time.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
No, not at all. I simply find the very consistent and patterned symptoms to be difficult to properly account for otherwise.

Why should simply growing up in a sheltered environment lead to such blank and expressionless faces, for example? I don't get that, I truly don't.

If Mashiro is autistic, that would answer some questions that currently have no clear-cut answers otherwise.
The answers have been given, but one might not see it and continue going about with the autism nonsense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Frankly, I don't get why you seem so biased against the idea of Mashiro being autistic. Do you think that would make her less of a character?
Mainly because I can sympathize with Mashiro, given that I was also quite like her and know the kind of thought process.


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I think that you're overstating the importance of this.
Not really. It's from personal experience: How one grew up is very important as to one's growth.
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Old 2012-12-10, 19:34   Link #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I guess this is where our individual opinions come in. I don't see her time in Sakurasou has having been that ample amount of time.
She's living with these people day and night. She's conversing with them regularly, and they're paying very close attention to her and constantly giving her advice/admonishments on how to talk to others and avoid misunderstandings. I think it's been... what, months now? Certainly weeks at the very least.

If she has no mental conditions, she should by now be picking up on the manner of speech and ways of conveying yourself that she sees from the people around her. But I see little-to-no sign that she has done so.


Quote:
The answers have been given, but one might not see it and continue going about with the autism nonsense.
I think I've put forward good reasons for why a person could reasonably think that Mashiro has autism.

So I take real personal offense at what you wrote here. Just so you know.
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Old 2012-12-10, 19:55   Link #24
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I find it really interesting that some people here think she is autistic, but they ignore that no one in this anime is thinking like that and that no one in this anime has ever used this term to describe her like that.
So I can only see this autism issue, that was never mentioned in this story so far, as an over-interpretation of some people.


What I read a couple of times already and what annoys me is that some people used this term, autistic, to insult/bash her character as a retarded girl.
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Old 2012-12-10, 19:56   Link #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
She's living with these people day and night. She's conversing with them regularly, and they're paying very close attention to her and constantly giving her advice/admonishments on how to talk to others and avoid misunderstandings. I think it's been... what, months now? Certainly weeks at the very least.

If she has no mental conditions, she should by now be picking up on the manner of speech and ways of conveying yourself that she sees from the people around her. But I see little-to-no sign that she has done so.
Who are they? Nanami and pushable Sorata?

More importantly, you keep missing something: If someone does not want to change or does not feel the need to change, they wouldn't change. You're still assuming Mashiro is a "normal" person who would constantly adapt to her environment, which from all indications is not really the case. She will change a bit to lessen the burden of those she care about, but that's probably the limit for now, until things progress further.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I think I've put forward good reasons for why a person could reasonably think that Mashiro has autism.
When one takes out the basic environment of the situation, then any analysis is unreasonable. Any thought process or diagnosis cannot exist in a vacuum, which your reasons amount to.


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So I take real personal offense at what you wrote here. Just so you know.
If you say so. I particularly have no problem if people feel offended when I point out things they miss.
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Old 2012-12-10, 20:09   Link #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher View Post
I find it really interesting that some people here think she is autistic, but they ignore that no one in this anime is thinking like that and that no one in this anime has ever used this term to describe her like that.
Nobody is ignoring that. But it's like I wrote before - In Japan, people are more mum about mental conditions. So I wouldn't expect these characters to discuss her in that fashion.


Quote:
What I read a couple of times already and what annoys me is that some people used this term, autistic, to insult/bash her character as a retarded girl.
Where are people doing that? I'm not bashing her by saying that I think that there's a good chance that she has autism. That's not intended as a bash at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Who are they? Nanami and pushable Sorata?
Primarily, yes.

Quote:

More importantly, you keep missing something: If someone does not want to change or does not feel the need to change, they wouldn't change.
I'm not missing that at all.

If a person truly realizes that she is causing all sorts of misunderstandings, then she will notice that, and naturally try to avoid causing such misunderstandings in the future (for her own sake, even if she doesn't care about anyone else).


Quote:
You're still assuming Mashiro is a "normal" person who would constantly adapt to her environment, which from all indications is not really the case.
That's precisely my point! My point is that she's not normal, mentally. If she was normal, she'd be showing more signs of adapting to her environment.

Look, it's to Mashiro's own personal benefit to be able to convey her thoughts and feelings clearly, thoroughly, and accurately. But she has made virtually no headway at all in that direction.


Quote:
When one takes out the basic environment of the situation, then any analysis is unreasonable.
I'm not taking the environment out of the situation at all. I am carefully considering the environment that Mashiro is in now, and giving some (but limited) consideration to the environment she grew up in.

Why am I giving limited consideration to that? Well, for one reason, because we know precious little about it. Frankly, your position is rooted on loads of speculation and assumption.


Quote:
Any thought process or diagnosis cannot exist in a vacuum, which your reasons amount to.
No, my reasons don't.


Quote:
If you say so. I particularly have no problem if people feel offended when I point out things they miss.
Cavalierly dismissing another person's carefully reasoned argument as "nonsense" is not "pointing out things that they missed".
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2012-12-10 at 20:27.
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Old 2012-12-10, 20:11   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher View Post
I find it really interesting that some people here think she is autistic, but they ignore that no one in this anime is thinking like that and that no one in this anime has ever used this term to describe her like that.
So I can only see this autism issue, that was never mentioned in this story so far, as an over-interpretation of some people.
I think there's just an issue of people having different notions of what autism is, see this article.

Quote:
The most likely cause of the autism epidemic is that autism has become fashionable – a popular fad diagnosis. Once rare and unmistakable, the term is now used loosely to describe people who do not really satisfy the narrow criteria intended for it by DSM IV. Autism now casts a wide net, catching much milder problems that previously went undiagnosed altogether or were given other labels. Autism is no longer seen as an extremely disabling condition, and many creative and normally eccentric people have discovered their inner autistic self.
The bolded part just seems to correspond to the debate around Shiina.

The one thing I'm convinced of is that the author didn't think to himself "I'm going to write an autistic character".
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Old 2012-12-10, 20:14   Link #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post

The one thing I'm convinced of is that the author didn't think to himself "I'm going to write an autistic character".
I think that the author intends for Mashiro to seem to have some sort of mental condition.

I don't know how you can possibly justify all of the misunderstandings she causes otherwise.
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Old 2012-12-10, 20:19   Link #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I don't know how you can possibly justify all of the misunderstandings she causes otherwise.
By living an extremely sheltered life focusing on the few things she likes or cares about.
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Old 2012-12-10, 20:22   Link #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
By living an extremely sheltered life focusing on the few things she likes or cares about.
You really think that? You really think that can account for all of the misunderstandings we've seen Shiina be at the center of in this anime?

And keep in mind that she frequently doesn't even seem to get that a misunderstanding occurred!

Just how sheltered do you have to be to not understand confusion when it's staring you right in the face?


Honestly, I find your answer to be highly improbable, and exceptionally hard to swallow.
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Old 2012-12-10, 20:23   Link #31
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
You really think that? You really think that can account for all of the misunderstandings we've seen Shiina be at the center of in this anime?
Yes, because I was even worse than Mashiro when I was young.
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Old 2012-12-10, 20:49   Link #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Nobody is ignoring that. But it's like I wrote before - In Japan, people are more mum about mental conditions. So I wouldn't expect these characters to discuss her in that fashion.
I was only pointing something out. You said it yourself that you believe that there is a chance of 50% that she is autistic.
But there is also a 50% chance that she is not. And when we consider that not even the people in the story (and with that not even the author himself) sees her that way and no one (like friends or family or teachers) in this story treats her that way, then I don't see any reason why I should think she is more than just an eccentric girl that has no desire or interest on other things than art.
If there is really something more to it, then I expect to be somhow mentioned.

If we go by your standards for Shiina, then what can we call Misaki and Aoyama? I mean, both of them behave quite extreme and sometimes dowright retared in many meany situations.



Quote:
Where are people doing that? I'm not bashing her by saying that I think that there's a good chance that she has autism. That's not intended as a bash at all.
I didn't mean exatcly you with that. It is just something that i noticed here and on other places since a couple of weeks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
I think there's just an issue of people having different notions of what autism is, see this article.



The bolded part just seems to correspond to the debate around Shiina.

The one thing I'm convinced of is that the author didn't think to himself "I'm going to write an autistic character".
And that is IMO obvious and that is the reason why i think some people are just over-analyzing this whole thing.
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Old 2012-12-10, 21:00   Link #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher View Post
I was only pointing something out. You said it yourself that you believe that there is a chance of 50% that she is autistic.
But there is also a 50% chance that she is not.
Right. The reason why I put it at 50%, is that Mashiro does sometimes display impressive incisiveness, and also that I don't doubt that Mashiro's upbringing is a significant factor in her behavior.

There's a certain sign I'm looking for from Mashiro. A certain sign that she's "cluing in on things". Maybe the latest episode will help here. I'm eagerly looking forward to watching it.


I will admit a bit of a bias, though. In a sea of eccentric anime females, I thought it might be nice if one for a change didn't just have a colorful personality, but actually had a real condition. Just for a change. I'd personally find a story of a girl overcoming a mental condition to achieve great personal and life success to be very inspirational.
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Old 2012-12-10, 21:17   Link #34
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Sakurasou Pet na Kanolu -> The pet girl of Sakura Appartment. I would assume the author's intention is to portray Mashiro as someone who cannot act independently and very different from the norm. Her thinkings and actions are inconprehensible But you can not help but love her. Just like a pet. And I don't mean to put down Mashiro as a retard or anything. (Heck, even pets are not entairely dumb themselve)

Whether you treat this as a mental problem, I don't know. But on a realistic standpoint, I would call a real person who behaves like that healthy myself.
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Old 2012-12-10, 21:32   Link #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
By living an extremely sheltered life focusing on the few things she likes or cares about.
After seeing episode 10,was she really living a sheltered life?
I mean it seems she had a few classmates at her grandpa's lessons and ignored them all except Rita.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I think that the author intends for Mashiro to seem to have some sort of mental condition.

I don't know how you can possibly justify all of the misunderstandings she causes otherwise.
My thinking is that the author just figured misunderstandings can be funny and so having a character that causes them would be fun.
That having a character overcoming social awkwardness would be interesting but I doubt the author thought about the source of the social awkwardness.
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Old 2012-12-10, 21:55   Link #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
After seeing episode 10,was she really living a sheltered life?
I mean it seems she had a few classmates at her grandpa's lessons and ignored them all except Rita.
Well if it's anything like the school's art club it might have been mutual. She was absorbed in her paintings, but almost no one actually tried to interact with her either.
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Old 2012-12-10, 22:07   Link #37
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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
Well if it's anything like the school's art club it might have been mutual. She was absorbed in her paintings, but almost no one actually tried to interact with her either.
As they said- Shiina is a hard person to interact with, obviously she isn't doing it on purpose, but 10 years old children wouldn't know that... Heck even 16 years old teenagers find it hard to approach her.
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Old 2013-04-05, 05:47   Link #38
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there's a "moe" feeling for her haha
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Old 2013-04-06, 10:49   Link #39
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Maybe Shiina has a straight face most of the time because the author wanted the comedy to be manzai?(if you don't know what it is google it)
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Old 2013-11-27, 03:17   Link #40
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She is so cute and smart... I like how she hide her true felling and act dumb only to show extreme carrying and intelligence.

Definitely one of my most favorite anime characters.
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