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Old 2012-12-10, 14:00   Link #31321
Renall
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How did he address the Love Duel and Logic Error? One would think that would be... difficult to work around. There's no way Rosa can do it, which is fine if you just accept Erika doing it... except then what is the point of that dreadfully important Love Duel sequence and the fantasy murders? Why would there be a contest at all between two individual people and... some sort of fantasy of a dead person? Even if you were to accept Shannon and Kanon having a conflict despite being separate people (which for the sake of argument you could do, I suppose), that third wheel of Beatrice doesn't appear to fit there.

Also it's sort of basing itself on the implication that Ryukishi is more clever than he looks, which has been thrown into question time and again. It would also seem to ignore the entirety of Our Confession, which was marketed as a sort of hintbook to how a gameboard murder sequence is constructed. Is he dismissing that as yet more authorial misdirection? Why go to so much trouble?
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Old 2012-12-10, 14:02   Link #31322
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Wegenbarth View Post
I'll do Renall a fevor an
Spoiler:
Well, there may be no absolute proof that Shannon and Kanon are the same, but there's still Shannon's first scene in EP1 to consider. I really have a hard time accepting that Gohda's incompetence was the real answer after all, considering everything else going on in that part.
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Old 2012-12-10, 15:32   Link #31323
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Pretty sure Ryukishi put the servants under suspicion so we would think that the servants COULDN'T have done it (after all, why would the possibility that was mentioned within the narrative be the correct answer?). A reverse red-herring.
Yes, even in Our Confession is mentioned that reverse red-herring would be used.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Also regarding the servant conspiracy: It wasn't entirely what was suggested in the story. For example, while someone does throw out the idea of Shannon-in-a-dress, they don't suggest that Shannon is the one actively trying to act like she's Beatrice, or that Shannon is somehow the mastermind (or even a murderer). There is a constant unspoken assumption that someone of authority - either Genji on Kinzo's orders or one of the other parents - is putting the servants up to it.

Likewise, Rosa is far more suspicious in Turn than the servants. Yes, she's trying to blame them overtly, but the portrayal of her erratic behavior and unexplained knowledge (she was at the chapel but didn't die, the butterfly landing on her back as she goes upstairs, lying about Kinzo, etc.) and the portrayal of the servants in magic scenes (Kanon defending Jessica with his life) tends to make the reader assume that Rosa is just trying to throw suspicion onto the servants needlessly.

Is it nevertheless a bit hackish that it's sort of true? I guess. But it's not exactly the same thing as somebody guessing the entire conspiracy correctly in the first dozen chapters only to have it pan out exactly as they said seven episodes later.
Exactly. No one seems to think the servants acted on their own and well, they've good reasons for this.
Genji served the family through all his life and likely so Kumasawa.
Shannon served it for most of her life.
Kanon and Gohda are relatively new but they work in the family by more than 1 year.
What would they have to gain by starting such thing?
It's not like they can inherit the family fortune.

Of course for Rosa is pretty easy to suspect of the servants. She knows that she's not the culprit and that all her siblings and husband/wifes are dead and she likely know Kinzo is dead as well.

So the culprit is either an extra person, the servants or one of her nephews and really, the servants look like the most likely ones.

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Originally Posted by Wegenbarth View Post
I'll do Renall a fevor and try to summarize the vids again. I fully watched some month ago and will skim throug them again and post it here.



Spoiler:


Spoiler:
The problem I have with someone who's not ShKanon as culprit in the gameboards is... well the whole of Ep 7.

I'm fine with a bit of red herring but an intere episode... it would be too much to stomach.
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Old 2012-12-10, 16:56   Link #31324
Kealym
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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
As for Episode 5:
Rosa is the key to solve the letter and knock as well.
Rosa left along with Natsuhi and Krauss cause she got a fever yet Nanjo said she came to the guesthouse at 1am despite Rosa having left before the drinks arrived (Midnight).
Wanderer pointed this out, but just to clarify, you're probably remembering this part of the story wrong. Rosa was definitely in the mansion, and didn't leave, until 1:00am.


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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Thanks for reminding me.
That part is more than just a tad arguable.
Especially when of all people Nanjo comfirmed solely Rosas death saying she's "probably dead for at least 6 hours".
Sorry for casting my doubts but if anything has been established its that Nanjo is hardly a trustworthy factor.
I'm almost certain Nanjo was speaking for all the people having been dead that long, not just Rosa. Not that Nanjo isn't totally lying, anyways, because lolShannon.



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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
You are right then again you rather go with an answer that is yelled at your face instead of a real mystery?
Battler said it himself, hiding the corpses inside the storehouse immediately puts suspicion on the Servants.
Where is the mystery in that?
To flip it around, a mystery still have to be solvable, and the clues HAVE to point towards SOMEBODY. If a servant is the culprit, there NEEDS to be things that suggest that, otherwise you couldn't reason it out. I would still call this piece of Ryukishi's plotting somewhat clever, though, because it plays on the EXACT sort of thoughts you're having - "That's too simple... it can't be true!"

It sometimes pays to hide your sand on the beach, after all.

Furthermore, the somewhat obvious involvement of the servants, in my opinion, is offset by the fact that as of that point in the story, there's NO apparent reason for any of those who remain (Genji, Kumasawa, Kanon) to go on some kind of murder spree. In fact, I'd say that at that point in the story, the best possible theory was that someone was trying to frame the servants.

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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
No it doesn't.Unless you wanna ignore points such as:

"I just need to sacrifice one piece to change the flow of the game to the witch side, thats you!"
"The Role of the Golden Witch Beatrice, is over!The only roles you and your furniture can play in my game are losers and corpses!"
"An amateurish magic circle."
"Some human is trying to take the role of Lady Beatrice."
"Such an uncouth murder would only put Lady Beatrice to shame."

That is clear evidence.Tell me what else did Lambdadelta mean?
Well, it's evidence of something. Not necessarily Rosatrice. What did she mean? Well, please excuse me since I can't remember exactly when these quotes were given, but I mostly remember taking them as:
1. Sacrificing a single human piece at the right time can make the mystery much, much harder to solve.
2. She didn't seem very interested in preserving Beato's fantasy narrative
3. Must not be the same culprit we're usually looking at.
4. Must not be the same culprit we're usually looking at.
5. Must not be the same culprit we're usually looking at.

Anyway, there's not much indication any of this refers to Rosa, specifically?

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Originally Posted by Wegenbarth View Post
I'll do Renall a fevor and try to summarize the vids again. I fully watched some month ago and will skim throug them again and post it here.
That would be ... greatly, greatly appreciated. My most honest complaint with KnowNoMore's theory is that he didn't make some sort of transcript or written summary, because I just cannot get through the entire video.


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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Also it's sort of basing itself on the implication that Ryukishi is more clever than he looks, which has been thrown into question time and again. It would also seem to ignore the entirety of Our Confession, which was marketed as a sort of hintbook to how a gameboard murder sequence is constructed. Is he dismissing that as yet more authorial misdirection? Why go to so much trouble?
So, this. This is very true. Ryukishi talks a pretty big game when presenting his stories, but even he admits that he's still an amateur.

Also, even though the discussion has kinda moves on, in regards to Chronotrig asking what kind of gameboard evidence we can use to tie Shannon to the crimes ... well, based on what was said in those posts, I don't really know what kind of gameboard occurrence would satisfy you, other than Battler literally witnessing her murdering somebody. :-/
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Old 2012-12-10, 17:11   Link #31325
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I watched KnowNoMore's videos and I think his theory is impressive. So much better thought out than anything I did. But even then I rate it only as "plausible", because the picture he paints of Rosa as the culprit isn't any stronger than what episode 7 does with Yasu.

Also it has the gross implication that the author is continuing to mess with us and lied in interviews. But just the fact that two completely different culprit theories can be made for the same story that are this detailed, kinda blew my mind. It made me think there's maybe more to Umineko than what we see, and now some part me of me expects Ryukishi to some day come back wearing a huge troll grin as he reveals the true conclusion to the story.

Unrealistic, I know...but it would be damn awesome.

Far-fetched speculation: Maybe the smoke-and-mirrors is continuing on this long because he wants to give manga-only readers time to finish the story and draw their own conclusions.
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Old 2012-12-10, 17:49   Link #31326
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So, this. This is very true. Ryukishi talks a pretty big game when presenting his stories, but even he admits that he's still an amateur.
Which is funny because the entirety of KNM's theory is making Ryukishi out to be some kind of god of mystery novels who wrote the perfect story.


From what I remember of the theory basically:

The Culprit is Rosa. She kills everyone because she is trying to revive the Kuwadorian Beatrice that she 'killed.' Yasu is a projection of her regret for killing Beatrice. She is in love with Battler in an Aunt sorta way (I don't even know)

There is a secondary Culprit George. George is creepily in love with Shannon and wants to kill off everyone but Shannon then fake his death and start out a new life.

The Accomplice is Nanjo. Nanjo does the little things here and there to make it look like magic. Nanjo is in it for the money so he can save his sick grandchild.


Episode 1 Rosa fakes her death yadayada. Kanon faked his death to try and Battle Rosa only to end up getting shot by Natsuhi.
Episode 2 Rosa is lying to create locked rooms then George kills everyone else at the end.
Episode 3 Rosa is betrayed by George then George is betrayed by Nanjo who then gets killed by George in revenge. Eva only kills Krauss and Natsuhi.
Episode 4 Rosa fakes her death yadayada. She commits suicide similar to how Shannon commits suicide except she just falls on her gun hiding it.

A couple flaws in his theory that he admits to.

Kanon somehow getting the stake to fake his death
The fact that there is absolutely nothing in the story linking George to Rosa.

He also believe that Ange's world is a lie that spawned from the third arc and prime is actually the second arc. Battler also never returns to Ange considering it's a fake reality and instead died in a boat crash fleeing the island. Everything going on is not from message bottles but is actually going on in Battler's head as he slowly dies. His evidence for this is at the end of the Second arc that says no one survived in red.

His main piece of evidence for his theory though is that in Our confessions it states that Beatrice was writing three stories at the same time, one being the magical solution, one being the Shkanon solution and the third being the hidden truth.
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Old 2012-12-10, 19:30   Link #31327
Jaden
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Yeah his theory has pitfalls, like that he needs Nanjo as an accomplice in episode 3. In fact he sees Nanjo as the ideal accomplice, which is a mistake. The only motive for Nanjo is his sick grandson, but it's said in the TIPS that the grandson has an incurable disease that you can't do much about even if you had great wealth. If he did need money I'm sure he could borrow it from Kinzo. Also his son receives a billion yen in Ange's world but doesn't even accept it.
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Old 2012-12-10, 19:32   Link #31328
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I watched KnowNoMore's videos and I think his theory is impressive. So much better thought out than anything I did. But even then I rate it only as "plausible", because the picture he paints of Rosa as the culprit isn't any stronger than what episode 7 does with Yasu.

Also it has the gross implication that the author is continuing to mess with us and lied in interviews. But just the fact that two completely different culprit theories can be made for the same story that are this detailed, kinda blew my mind. It made me think there's maybe more to Umineko than what we see, and now some part me of me expects Ryukishi to some day come back wearing a huge troll grin as he reveals the true conclusion to the story.

Unrealistic, I know...but it would be damn awesome.

Far-fetched speculation: Maybe the smoke-and-mirrors is continuing on this long because he wants to give manga-only readers time to finish the story and draw their own conclusions.
I think it's more he's providing answers in the manga. Sadly I can't read the text but from what I can see EP 8 provided some solutions to the tricks.

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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
Which is funny because the entirety of KNM's theory is making Ryukishi out to be some kind of god of mystery novels who wrote the perfect story.


From what I remember of the theory basically:

The Culprit is Rosa. She kills everyone because she is trying to revive the Kuwadorian Beatrice that she 'killed.' Yasu is a projection of her regret for killing Beatrice. She is in love with Battler in an Aunt sorta way (I don't even know)

There is a secondary Culprit George. George is creepily in love with Shannon and wants to kill off everyone but Shannon then fake his death and start out a new life.

The Accomplice is Nanjo. Nanjo does the little things here and there to make it look like magic. Nanjo is in it for the money so he can save his sick grandchild.
So... hum... Rosa knew Battler when he was a kid, then didn't see him for years then as soon as she sees him she falls for him and starts working with George?
What's this, the alliance between kid stalkers?

Personally I can accept the Nanjo is doing it for money for his grandchild, I can swallow the George is actually insane so all those pretty words about challenging the world to be with Shannon meant actually backstabbing the world do death to get Shannon but the whole about Rosa murdering everyone to revive Kuwadorian Beatrice and because she loves Battler is... hum... I've no words...
And again poor Maria gets completely ignored by her mom.

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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
Episode 1 Rosa fakes her death yadayada. Kanon faked his death to try and Battle Rosa only to end up getting shot by Natsuhi.
Episode 2 Rosa is lying to create locked rooms then George kills everyone else at the end.
Episode 3 Rosa is betrayed by George then George is betrayed by Nanjo who then gets killed by George in revenge. Eva only kills Krauss and Natsuhi.
Episode 4 Rosa fakes her death yadayada. She commits suicide similar to how Shannon commits suicide except she just falls on her gun hiding it.
Wait, in Ep 1 when did Natsuhi kill Kanon?

Ep 3 solution put in this way is almost comical with A backstabbing B who get backstabbed by C so B backstab him in retaliation with Eva deciding to join the culprit bunch by killing Natsuhi and Krauss (and Battler actually).

Though I guess maybe the solution is more complex and this is just a summary.

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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
A couple flaws in his theory that he admits to.

Kanon somehow getting the stake to fake his death
The fact that there is absolutely nothing in the story linking George to Rosa.

He also believe that Ange's world is a lie that spawned from the third arc and prime is actually the second arc. Battler also never returns to Ange considering it's a fake reality and instead died in a boat crash fleeing the island. Everything going on is not from message bottles but is actually going on in Battler's head as he slowly dies. His evidence for this is at the end of the Second arc that says no one survived in red.
And hum... the first arc is what? Battler making it up before everything happened? Or the order of things went messed up for no reason at all and first we've Battler allucinating, then we've what happened then Battler went on allucinating for 6 more arcs?
Not mentioning erasing Ange's world make part of Ep 4, 6 and 8 pretty meaningless as the real Ange's destiny would be unknown and pointless to discuss over as she wouldn't be entrusted to Eva (who died) and therefore she might have been raised as the happiest girl ever... or she could hae been run over by a car the day after the incident.

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His main piece of evidence for his theory though is that in Our confessions it states that Beatrice was writing three stories at the same time, one being the magical solution, one being the Shkanon solution and the third being the hidden truth.
I would say the third story are BeatoYasu's feelings over all this, not a third solution but maybe that's just me.

I really wish he would trascript his solution though because it seems unfair to discuss it only by knowing bits and pieces of it but for a not English speaker like me listening to such a long English video would only mean a headache.
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Old 2012-12-10, 20:38   Link #31329
Jaden
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
How did he address the Love Duel?
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Originally Posted by Valkama
She is in love with Battler in an Aunt sorta way (I don't even know)
I'll try to convey how KnowNoMore describes Rosatrice and Battler's relationship...obviously a bit difficult just because of the scale of those videos...

It's a platonic and one-sided love that Rosa develops for several reasons and keeps to herself (although she does state that she misses Battler and even playfully flirts with him in one scene)

Rosa wants to carry out the murders as a magical ceremony, and needs to introduce risks for the magic to work. She is also looking for people to understand her. For these reasons she wants Battler as the "detective" to try and stop her.

Rosa is also a friend of Shannon's and roots for Shannon's romance with Battler. Once Shannon gives up after three years of waiting, Rosa feels guilty and, like in the meta-world perspective of ep7, "takes over" the love for Battler and starts rooting for Shannon+George instead (until deciding to kill everyone which requires betraying Shannon and George)

To imagine Rosa's relationship with Shannon, consider the scenes in episodes 2 and 7, and that Rosa comes up with the fictional character that develops from Yasu to Claire to Beatrice, and finally becomes the dominant aspect of Rosa's personality.

Rosa would also see Battler as Kinzo's true heir. She feels guilty because of the original Beatrice's death so she comes to treat Battler specially because of this.

The love duel is explained something like this:

For Rosa to fulfill her plan and to get Battler to understand her, everyone has to die and be resurrected in the golden land or whatever. She's delusional and doesn't really have a chance in this duel to begin with.

George is the second culprit and his plan involves escaping with Shannon while the bomb kills everyone else, especially Battler. George is about to be betrayed by Rosa so only one of them can survive anyway, bomb or not.

Kanon and Jessica can only end up together if both Rosa and George fail (either die or get arrested)

Shannon+George win the duel because of Erika's influence in this game, she decapitates Rosa and shoots Kanon to death in the closet...way to go.
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Old 2012-12-10, 21:01   Link #31330
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So... hum... Rosa knew Battler when he was a kid, then didn't see him for years then as soon as she sees him she falls for him and starts working with George?
What's this, the alliance between kid stalkers?
Personally I can accept the Nanjo is doing it for money for his grandchild, I can swallow the George is actually insane so all those pretty words about challenging the world to be with Shannon meant actually backstabbing the world do death to get Shannon but the whole about Rosa murdering everyone to revive Kuwadorian Beatrice and because she loves Battler is... hum... I've no words...
And again poor Maria gets completely ignored by her mom.[/QUOTE]

Rosa's motive in his theory always really bothered me. She is trying to revive Beatrice by creating closed rooms to simulate magic to get Battler into thinking there is magic?

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Wait, in Ep 1 when did Natsuhi kill Kanon?

Ep 3 solution put in this way is almost comical with A backstabbing B who get backstabbed by C so B backstab him in retaliation with Eva deciding to join the culprit bunch by killing Natsuhi and Krauss (and Battler actually).

Though I guess maybe the solution is more complex and this is just a summary.
In EP1, when Natsuhi locks the 4 kids in the parlor and goes to confront the culprit. She is found with her gun looking like it was fired. There is a red about among the survivors noone could have killed Natsuhi or something like that. So his solution is basically Kanon and Natsuhi simultaneously murdered each other although he states the Red probably is just due to translation it's still a solution if you take it literally. It's rather complex but I guess it works. He actually gives about 2-3 solutions for each locked room in case someone finds something to make one of the solutions invalid.

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And hum... the first arc is what? Battler making it up before everything happened? Or the order of things went messed up for no reason at all and first we've Battler allucinating, then we've what happened then Battler went on allucinating for 6 more arcs?
Not mentioning erasing Ange's world make part of Ep 4, 6 and 8 pretty meaningless as the real Ange's destiny would be unknown and pointless to discuss over as she wouldn't be entrusted to Eva (who died) and therefore she might have been raised as the happiest girl ever... or she could hae been run over by a car the day after the incident.
The one thing that I've noticed(Although it might just be the vocal minority) is a lot of Rosatrice believe share this same mindset. This is mostly due to the Red in episode 8 that takes place in Ange's world and how Ange see's Maria, Sakatorou and the Seven Stakes of Purgatory in EP4. In all honesty though if this much of the story is a lie then the only thing that can be taken as truth is Red truth. Then are we any better than Furudo Erika and Bernkastel?


A couple other things to note is Rosa's motive goes into a lot more depth than what I summarized it as. I just don't feel like rewatching that part as it's probably the most boring part of the entire video (which is saying something). I really stopped caring about the motive and clues towards Rosa after he started comparing Gapp's clothes to Rosa's fashion company. All in all his theory is OK. Personally I would really like to see Ryukishi come out and say Shkanon was a lie and the actually culprit was Gohda.
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Old 2012-12-10, 21:27   Link #31331
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His main piece of evidence for his theory though is that in Our confessions it states that Beatrice was writing three stories at the same time, one being the magical solution, one being the Shkanon solution and the third being the hidden truth.
How does his theory explain OC itself though, what with the whole Beatrice threatening Krauss and Natsuhi into becoming accomplices etc. parts?
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Old 2012-12-10, 21:36   Link #31332
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How does his theory explain OC itself though, what with the whole Beatrice threatening Krauss and Natsuhi into becoming accomplices etc. parts?
Well, Dlanor states the Beatrice was writing not two but three solutions the the mystery. The first one being the Magic solution. The second one being the Shkanon solution. Dlanor states that OC will help you find the second solution but Beatrice wants you to find the third solution on your own. In other words OC is meant to explain the Shkanon solution however the real solution is something Ryukishi wants you to figure out yourself. As far as what is in OC goes, he states it's meant to show you how ridiculous Shkanon actually is.

Last edited by Valkama; 2012-12-10 at 22:07.
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Old 2012-12-10, 22:14   Link #31333
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There's a big problem with KnM's theory as far as Episode 4 goes.

In the ostensible solution, the six people killed at the first twilight would have been dead 90 minutes by the time Battler found them. The bodies would be long cold by then, and any blood would have dried to a dark red.

It can't have been more than 10 minutes since he spoke with "Beatrice" outside. During that time, Rosa would have had to change out of her Beatrice costume, hide it, and kill herself. When Battler found her, the body would still be warm, the blood would still be bright red and mostly liquid.


My big problem with Umineko is that I don't know what I know. There's often a scene when the detective gets a preconception early, and reexamines it at the end and realizes there never was any evidence for the preconception, or perhaps that all the evidence was ultimately single-source; once the preconception is abandoned, another option might become available.

(For example, there have been a series of minor pranks; Character X mentions having learned who's behind them and is going to talk to the culprit and that the pranks will stop tonight. Instead, the pranks turn deadly with X being found dead at the site of the next prank. The protagonist implicitly assumes that the prankster is male for most of the book, but at the end thinks over the conversation and realizes that X never said the prankster was male, or used a male pronoun; the protagonist reexamines some female characters as suspects.)

The scene when Natsuhi meets Kinzo simply wouldn't have been allowed in most mysteries. Natsuhi talking with Kinzo didn't happen. Showing Natsuhi recounting the events afterwards would be fine; she did say those words, even if they were untrue.

In the latter case, when I start doubting that Kinzo is alive, I can reexamine my reasons for thinking he's alive ("I have only Natsuhi's word that she spoke with Kinzo."). If I do decided Natsuhi is lying, I can try to examine her reasons for lying. As Ryu did things, if I think a hypothesis may be completely wrong, I don't have any place to start.


Side comment: If Battler's sin refers to hurting Shannon, then it almost has to be Shannon as the mastermind. Otherwise, you have the problem of 1) the person must know that Shannon is hurt, 2) must think that Battler is bad for doing so, and 3) didn't encourage Shannon to act on her own. Shannon didn't even tell Jessica how she felt. George and Kyrie might have guessed that Shannon was hurt, and wouldn't have encouraged her, but why would they view that as a sin. If Rosa had somehow learned that Shannon was upset, why didn't Rosa say something like "No matter how he feels about you, teenage boys tend to dig in their heels rather than change their minds. You don't have to ask him to come back, just enter a conversation. Mention a book you've just read and ask whether he's picked up any new authors."

And how was she supposed to learn about Shannon? She was probably in her early-mid 20s at the time Shannon started as a servant, mid-late 20s when Battler stopped coming; she probably wasn't living on the island at that time. Why would Shannon confide in Rosa?
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Old 2012-12-10, 23:49   Link #31334
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The scene when Natsuhi meets Kinzo simply wouldn't have been allowed in most mysteries. Natsuhi talking with Kinzo didn't happen. Showing Natsuhi recounting the events afterwards would be fine; she did say those words, even if they were untrue.
That's probably true, at least for those following the Golden Era style pretty closely ... however, I couldn't quite neglect that this was the same man who wrote Higurashi. "The syringe is, in reality, just a harmless pen", "Shmion", "friendship turns you into deadly ninjas", "alien parasites" laden Higurashi. As soon as Kanon's body disappeared, I was all "Oh I see what's going on here. There's no 'magic' happening here. NO MAGIC BUT LIEESSS."

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And how was she supposed to learn about Shannon? She was probably in her early-mid 20s at the time Shannon started as a servant, mid-late 20s when Battler stopped coming; she probably wasn't living on the island at that time. Why would Shannon confide in Rosa?
Mmm ... well, as you say, Rosa was about 23 I think when Shannon started working there ... she was probably pregnant with Maria at the exact time. Who knows if she was living at home? She didn't seem particularly academically inclined, so who knows if she went to college or anything like her siblings...

But your point stands - noone even seems to know Shannon and Battler had any sort of "thing", at all. At most, George noticed that they got along much better than he himself did with the servant girls.

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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
Well, Dlanor states the Beatrice was writing not two but three solutions the the mystery. The first one being the Magic solution. The second one being the Shkanon solution. Dlanor states that OC will help you find the second solution but Beatrice wants you to find the third solution on your own. In other words OC is meant to explain the Shkanon solution however the real solution is something Ryukishi wants you to figure out yourself. in OC goes, he states it's meant to show you how ridiculous Shkanon actually is.
I'll be honest, I'm mostly kinda stumped about what this "third story" is supposed to be in OC. The best I can do is that it's the story of the author herself, why she chose to create that sort of tale, why does it exist in the first place, that sort of thing... but who knows.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I think it's more he's providing answers in the manga. Sadly I can't read the text but from what I can see EP 8 provided some solutions to the tricks.
Gotta agree. I finally decided to look at some of the manga, and, for example, the First Twilight in legend makes it FAR less ambiguous that the only people who saw Shannon's corpse were Hideyoshi and Kanon, because she was waaaaay back in the back hidden by boxes and junk. I mean, the novel certainly supports that idea, but the manga clearly shows the view from where the kids were, and they only even assumed there was another victim because Shannon was "missing", and Hideyoshi / Kanon were standing over something in the very back.

I'd say it could also put the EP5 parlor scene to rest, but I kinda don't even wanna discuss that anymnore.


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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
Which is funny because the entirety of KNM's theory is making Ryukishi out to be some kind of god of mystery novels who wrote the perfect story.
I know, right? What parts of his video I do watch make frequent mention of something like "Otherwise you say that Ryukishi ruined his OWN story with these terrible mistakes" and I'm like "This man has clearly never encountered a piece of media that you may call, perhaps, ruined by it's creators terrible storytelling mistakes." Like ... ever.
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Old 2012-12-11, 00:44   Link #31335
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
That's probably true, at least for those following the Golden Era style pretty closely ... however, I couldn't quite neglect that this was the same man who wrote Higurashi. "The syringe is, in reality, just a harmless pen", "Shmion", "friendship turns you into deadly ninjas", "alien parasites" laden Higurashi. As soon as Kanon's body disappeared, I was all "Oh I see what's going on here. There's no 'magic' happening here. NO MAGIC BUT LIEESSS."
I thought the Natsuhi scene was actually 100% fair. It's so blatantly wish-fulfillment for her that Kinzo's personality is immediately suspect. Honestly the very instant the slightest whiff of Kinzo-is-dead got to my nostrils I immediately looked at that scene and said "Yeah, he's probably dead, he'd never actually say that stuff."

Granted, to know Kinzo's personality to know that Natsuhi is contradicting it we needed to see all those other scenes of Kinzo where he's establishing his personality... none of which happened either. Damn.
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Old 2012-12-11, 01:11   Link #31336
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Granted, to know Kinzo's personality to know that Natsuhi is contradicting it we needed to see all those other scenes of Kinzo where he's establishing his personality... none of which happened either. Damn.
Maybe it helps to see the magic scenes as testimony. After all, there are plenty of mystery novels where many of the clues come from comparing witness testimony, which can always be filled with lies. The only difference is that Umineko forces you to figure out which scenes are testimony, and who's telling what parts.


To apply that in this specific case, we have conflicting testimony on what Kinzo's personality is. Therefore, one of those scenes must contain a lie. The fact that Kinzo left the epitaph as a way to determine his successor sort of kills the credibility of the Natsuhi scene, so we're forced to think of why that lie was created.
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Old 2012-12-11, 01:15   Link #31337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
Well, Dlanor states the Beatrice was writing not two but three solutions the the mystery. The first one being the Magic solution. The second one being the Shkanon solution. Dlanor states that OC will help you find the second solution but Beatrice wants you to find the third solution on your own.
Though I always think this way of thinking limits the implication put forth by this line too much. For me it is not just about solutions, it is about what the stories are trying to portray and for that, I think, another line by Dlanor is important:

"While she was appealing to those who had love, her heart was also cynical and critical, full of wrath towards those who had no love."

And even more:

"These are her words,
but I want to repeat them.

In every persons heart exists love.

The fact that she was unable to see this herself, that is her true tragedy.
"

I think the first story is not only the magical narrative, but what she wanted people to see and to believe. The second story is what she wanted to imply, her confession and her wish to be found. And the third story, I think, is what she actually thought of those people, the unconscious aspect of her own writing in which she expressed all her uncontrolled emotions.

What this could tell us is that "Beatrice" was neither a witch of pure evil nor an innocent maiden, but she failed because she tried to see the world in black and white.
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Old 2012-12-11, 04:50   Link #31338
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
How did he address the Love Duel and Logic Error?
He accounts for the logic error this way: When Erika declares that she is sealing the two rooms, he calls it a magic scene since Dlanor and her subordinates are involved. He says that the process must have actually taken a little time, and before Erika seals the cousins' room, but after the location check, Kanon left through the window. He accounts for Kanon's death by claiming that Erika shot him.

He doesn't even account for the love duel. He might say he does, since he talked about it, but he really doesn't. He actually introduces the topic by saying something along the lines of "Since ShKanon is impossible, an alternative explanation must be found", which basically means he approaches the whole issue of the love duel by assuming his own premise (which, to be fair, he came to for reasons not having to do with the love duel). Of course this means that he is ignoring anything in the love duel that points towards ShKanon simply by default, which is utterly ridiculous if you ask me. He does offer an alternative interpretation (I call it that rather than an "explanation") for the duel, where Rosa's (Beatrice's), George's, and Jessica's romantic interests are all incompatible situations and therefore only one of them can "win". There are so many awkward things about this interpretation, though, and I don't feel like listed all of them (unless someone would like me to).

When I first was reading Umineko, I didn't give ShKanon a second thought. While reading the love duel I was like "wtf really...how does that even work?" I didn't really want to believe it, but I had to. As far as I'm concerned, the love duel is the finisher for ShKanon and there is no room left for debate.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Personally I can accept the Nanjo is doing it for money for his grandchild, I can swallow the George is actually insane so all those pretty words about challenging the world to be with Shannon meant actually backstabbing the world do death to get Shannon but the whole about Rosa murdering everyone to revive Kuwadorian Beatrice and because she loves Battler is... hum... I've no words...
And again poor Maria gets completely ignored by her mom.
Actually, I find Rosa the least implausible of the 3, since her motive is basically identical to Yasu's. In fact, in KNM's theory, Rosa is Yasu, or at least imagines herself to be. Yasu is supposedly an invented friend of Shannon's by Rosa through which Rosa projects herself.

George's I find worse, since George doesn't even have a motive. What does mass murder have to do with him marrying Shannon?

And Nanjo's motive is probably the worst. Not only is it paper thin and already thoroughly refuted by another poster here, Nanjo'd probably be better off siding with the victims and just asking for the money later anyway.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I really wish he would trascript his solution though because it seems unfair to discuss it only by knowing bits and pieces of it but for a not English speaker like me listening to such a long English video would only mean a headache.
You can ask him for it. He probably typed it out before he even released it as a video.

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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
My big problem with Umineko is that I don't know what I know.

As Ryu did things, if I think a hypothesis may be completely wrong, I don't have any place to start.
I think the point is that basically all of Umineko is testimony. It's the "Reader's" testimony. This is, at least in principle, pretty clearly spelled out in EPs 3 and 4.

So yeah I don't really mind about what he did with the various of the Golden Witch stories. Then again, that he dangles a bunch of 1998 stuff in front of us that we also can't rely on is pretty frustrating.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I think the first story is not only the magical narrative, but what she wanted people to see and to believe. The second story is what she wanted to imply, her confession and her wish to be found. And the third story, I think, is what she actually thought of those people, the unconscious aspect of her own writing in which she expressed all her uncontrolled emotions.
I think this is an excellent interpretation.

I would also like to add that Dlanor said that wanted us to get to the core of Beatrice's story as another woman.
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Old 2012-12-11, 07:31   Link #31339
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
You can ask him for it. He probably typed it out before he even released it as a video.
He probably won't give it. I skimmed through the comments on his videos one of the previous times his theory came up here, and I'm pretty sure that people have asked him for transcripts before and been turned down. (And that someone started a project to transcribe it, which later got abandoned.) He's spent forever on his long videos, so probably doesn't want people to have to bypass it. Which is understandable, or would be if the videos weren't so very long. I'd be happy to watch at least one of them, but times I've tried, Youtube has frozen on me due to the video length so it can't actually be done, and that's not even considering the bandwidth they suck up.

It's all very impractical, given that he seems to direct people to parts of his videos and say they weren't watching them properly.
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Old 2012-12-11, 09:24   Link #31340
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
He accounts for the logic error this way: When Erika declares that she is sealing the two rooms, he calls it a magic scene since Dlanor and her subordinates are involved. He says that the process must have actually taken a little time, and before Erika seals the cousins' room, but after the location check, Kanon left through the window. He accounts for Kanon's death by claiming that Erika shot him.
That's somehow actually dumber than my solution.
Quote:
George's I find worse, since George doesn't even have a motive. What does mass murder have to do with him marrying Shannon?
But George says stuff! In magic scenes. That clearly don't necessarily always mean what they sound like they mean. And also he never does anything, like, ever. Except the one time he participated in a fake death. Possibly to troll Erika, who honestly has it coming.

And also he can kill children, but honestly it's not like children even count.
Quote:
And Nanjo's motive is probably the worst. Not only is it paper thin and already thoroughly refuted by another poster here, Nanjo'd probably be better off siding with the victims and just asking for the money later anyway.
Given Nanjo's flimsy motivations in the story in general I have to wonder why he never just gives away the game to protect himself. Especially when there's people with guns he can run to.

Quote:
I think the point is that basically all of Umineko is testimony. It's the "Reader's" testimony. This is, at least in principle, pretty clearly spelled out in EPs 3 and 4.

So yeah I don't really mind about what he did with the various of the Golden Witch stories. Then again, that he dangles a bunch of 1998 stuff in front of us that we also can't rely on is pretty frustrating.
I get that, but then you run into the problem of the so-called "reliable perspective." If the Reader filters everything, they filter the perceptions of all perspectives as well, without necessarily making it apparent who can be relied upon. It's this sort of scenario that could give us e.g. End, where Battler has no reason to be dishonest yet appears to be misleading an audience he isn't even aware exists.

Given that, can we trust what Battler sees and says in other episodes? Why or why not? Are any of the Kinzo scenes accurate summations of his personality, or are none of them (or all of them)? It's ironically easier to compare and contrast the scenes which are obviously filled with magical things going on than the ones that give off an appearance of mundanity.

So I understand the frustration. The lack of any sort of especially definitive answer regarding Prime or indeed any of the basic information that someone in a theoretical Prime universe would have access to makes it very difficult to check a solution, and in the back of one's mind is always the specter of "Can I even rely on that information at all? If it turns out to be false, where does that reset my reasoning to?"
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I think this is an excellent interpretation.

I would also like to add that Dlanor said that wanted us to get to the core of Beatrice's story as another woman.
Does Dlanor know something I don't?
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