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Old 2012-12-11, 23:15   Link #31361
Valkama
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Regarding Kinzo in Turn, perhaps Battler is in fact lying about seeing Kinzo do to his new found belief in magic he obviously didn't see butterflies. Perhaps when he accepts magic and becomes Beatrice's furniture he is actually because an accomplice to Beatrice and therefore hides the fact that Kinzo is dead.
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Old 2012-12-12, 00:14   Link #31362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
Regarding Kinzo in Turn, perhaps Battler is in fact lying about seeing Kinzo do to his new found belief in magic he obviously didn't see butterflies. Perhaps when he accepts magic and becomes Beatrice's furniture he is actually because an accomplice to Beatrice and therefore hides the fact that Kinzo is dead.
I always imagined him going insane at the sight of Kinzo mummy and Genji handing him a love letter that told him "bye-bye, now you go BOOM!"
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Old 2012-12-12, 04:05   Link #31363
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Another side comment: It's a big deal that nobody would mistake anything for Kinzo. At the end of Episode 2, Battler met Kinzo. How are we supposed to reconcile these two items?
1) Battler was an unreliable perspective at that point?
2) Battler saw Kinzo's corpse, and wasn't mistaking anything for Kinzo? (For various reasons, I think that his corpse had been kept in his study, in a bathtub of formaldehyde or somesuch.)
3) Ryu screwed up.
Actually, someone posted something relevant about this a while ago. Although Battler was in the scene at the end of Turn, he wasn't narrating. Usually Battler narrates the scenes he's in in first person, but in that scene Battler was only referred to in third person.
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Old 2012-12-12, 05:35   Link #31364
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Quote:
Regarding Kinzo in Turn, perhaps Battler is in fact lying about seeing Kinzo do to his new found belief in magic he obviously didn't see butterflies. Perhaps when he accepts magic and becomes Beatrice's furniture he is actually because an accomplice to Beatrice and therefore hides the fact that Kinzo is dead.
That would be reasonably hard to do at that point in Ep 2, as she was dead.




That interview sure is interesting, because Ryu is saying not that she couldn't choose between the three, but more that she was unwilling to let the any of the romances fail. It's like suicide was her plan all along, but she can't let a character die until their goal is achieved. Shannon can go at any time, as she gets the ring, Kanon does often die after a touching scene with Jessica and Beatrice dies once when she gives up and then once when Battler completes her.

Also while saying she sacrificed herself to keep everyone else on the island alive is sweet in the theory of the story, in practice it is a little bit bonkers.


FURTHERMORE, did he say Battler was fished out YEARS later? What?
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Old 2012-12-12, 06:06   Link #31365
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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
That interview sure is interesting, because Ryu is saying not that she couldn't choose between the three, but more that she was unwilling to let the any of the romances fail. It's like suicide was her plan all along, but she can't let a character die until their goal is achieved. Shannon can go at any time, as she gets the ring, Kanon does often die after a touching scene with Jessica and Beatrice dies once when she gives up and then once when Battler completes her.

Also while saying she sacrificed herself to keep everyone else on the island alive is sweet in the theory of the story, in practice it is a little bit bonkers.
Just a little bit. Honestly, I find it pretty creepy. I'm usually not a fan of Yandere. I prefer the murder game theory where all three characters die but the actor lives. It's somewhat less bonkers. Ikuko=Yasu ftw. It fit's with Will's analysis, too: "The only person who can kill a character (Beatrice) is their actor". The very fact that this distinction is made to me suggests that Beatrice's death does not mean Yasu's.

A side note, but I have to say dealing with Yasu's name has always been a bit difficult, because Yasu isn't Shannon or Kanon or Beatrice or Ikuko or anything. It's just the name we gave to the ultimate controller of that person's body. In Ikuko=Yasu, Ikuko is not really Yasu any more or less than Shannon or Beatrice is... Then again, even the personality structure of Yasu is a subject of debate and discussion.
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Old 2012-12-12, 09:34   Link #31366
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Yep, here: https://sites.google.com/site/ralphm...neko-explained

It looks longer than I remember it being. Maybe it's still being updated?
Huh, upon looking at this...this actually goes very nearly to the end of the videos. It certainly covers everything in the first 3 of 4 parts. Anyone who's interested in KNM's stuff but doesn't want to watch his videos should definitely take a look at this.
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Old 2012-12-12, 17:48   Link #31367
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Yep, here: https://sites.google.com/site/ralphm...neko-explained

It looks longer than I remember it being. Maybe it's still being updated?
Thanks for the link.
Just wondering... it goes on like in the first part through all the video?

Because it's terribly... verbose in the beginning. He could have said the same thing using the 10% of the words he used...


Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
If Shkanontrice is true, then this part of EP2 is our best hint to her character, and probably meta-Beatrce's as well. Since we don't yet have absolute proof that she committed the crimes, this section is probably our best bet for figuring out whether she was guilty or not.

It's definitely possible for us to find evidence of Beatrice as the killer in this section. I think I was one of the first to try that post-EP6, at least on this board. However, Ryuukishi has made a point about giving suspects the benefit of the doubt several times in Umineko, so I'd like to look at this section again.
Well, Ep 7 implied that even if Battler hadn't returned something would have happened so it's possible that a duel between Shannon and Kanon was already in program and this duel would end with the 'death' of one of the two.

The dialogue between Beato and Shannon is interesting. Shannon says she doesn't want to use Beato's magic to get George's love because as of now everything has been peaceful and Beato's magic would change it and Beato agrees. If Shannon doesn't do as Beato says, nothing will change, everything will stay as it is and she'll never have a chance at love.


It really seems an inner monologue between chosing if doing something and just letting things as they are but, with the implication that doing something maybe will give Shannon's George's love but it'll also will cause lot of troubles.

The following parts are also interesting.

Shannon gets to be with George and be happy thanks to Beato but then Beato confesses she did it only on a whim and with the purpose to tear them apart.

If we consider Beato and Shannon are the same person it means more or less than Yasu longed for love (confirmed by Ep 7 in which she says it doesn't matter where it is as long as she's welcomed and loved) so she tried to have it with George because she had the chance to pursue it however she didn't really plan for a long term relation possibly also because she believed a long term relation would work as Kanon insists. In fact he too confesses he would like to pursue love but refuses to believe it oculd work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
That interview sure is interesting, because Ryu is saying not that she couldn't choose between the three, but more that she was unwilling to let the any of the romances fail. It's like suicide was her plan all along, but she can't let a character die until their goal is achieved. Shannon can go at any time, as she gets the ring, Kanon does often die after a touching scene with Jessica and Beatrice dies once when she gives up and then once when Battler completes her.

Also while saying she sacrificed herself to keep everyone else on the island alive is sweet in the theory of the story, in practice it is a little bit bonkers.
I'm wondering if the interview is referring to Yasu/Beato the writer instead than to MetaBeato.

I mean, there's who says that statistically girls prefer stories with a tragic ending, like let's say Titanic or Romeo and Juliet.

The scene in which Beato drown herself is likely not the exact truth on how things went. Before it Featherine threw a rose in the sea and the text said:

Quote:
With the tale of that golden rose, ......let us mark the end of this long story.
So maybe Beato's suicide is the tale of that golden rose (who incidentally was thrown in the sea to drown as well).

So the whole weird talk about girls' preferences doesn't apply to choices in life but to choices in how to end a fantasy story. Ryukishi assumes for a girl like Beato it'll be more romantic to write a tale in which all the three love be fulfilled in the golden land, for Beato to drown herself satisfied she just had Battler's feelings (similar to how Shannon in Ep 2 said for her it was enough to have George ask her to marry him) instead than just have Beato live a happy life with Battler and who cares about Shannon and Kanon's love story (he seems to link this choice with also part of the truth of Rokkenjima being revealed... I wonder if this means that, since Beato could only live on Rokkenjima, due to the set of rules she herself created, in order to leave she would have to turn into her true form or something like that).


Which is opinable (I would have preferred Beato and Battler to leave together and I'm a girl) but it could have some basis in how many girls like tragic love stories (not that they want to live them though) and, as far as I'm involved, is more acceptable than saying that, in real life, all girls are satisfied with just souls joined together. It can be fine and dandy in a story but, in real life, that's nowhere near enough.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
For that matter, how is Dlanor even a woman? She's an executioner doll from Heaven who is also the representation of a set of rules. She has a female form, whoopdie-doo. How exactly does that give her any sort of inherent understanding of the life of a human being of any gender, again? At least Bernkastel/Beatrice/Battler/et al were once human.

Then again expecting the backstories of any of the magical/meta characters to make any sense is barking up the wrong tree.
There's a chance that she wasn't an executioner doll from Heaven and the representation of a set of rules right from the beginning but became it afterward.
After all Beato too is the representation of the rules of the gameboard and Will also seems to represent another set of rules.


Maybe the sidestory about Cornelia tells us more about Dlanor as well but as far as i know it hasn't been translated yet... or has it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by GabrieliosP View Post
Battler was drunk at this point, so we can affirm that he didn't have a reliable perspective. Dunno how he saw Kinzo there, maybe Kinzo's corpse was put in the room and he halucinated it talking thanks to being drunk. Either way, the majority consensus is that he doesn't have a reliable perspective at that scene thanks to drunkenesss.

And what flashback in EP5? Can you be more specific?
Maybe it was MetaBattler the one who got drunk? he and PieceBattler seem to overlap here and there in EP 2. That or PieceBattler has passed out and was dreaming. In this case we have his reliable perspective of what he dreamt... which isn't usueful at all.
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Old 2012-12-12, 18:08   Link #31368
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I just realized that KNM's "living human bodies" = "people" definition doesn't work, because then "These 6 people are dead" becomes "These 6 living human bodies are dead", which contradicts itself.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Thanks for the link.
Just wondering... it goes on like in the first part through all the video?

Because it's terribly... verbose in the beginning. He could have said the same thing using the 10% of the words he used...
He's like that the whole way through.
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Old 2012-12-12, 19:24   Link #31369
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I just realized that KNM's "living human bodies" = "people" definition doesn't work, because then "These 6 people are dead" becomes "These 6 living human bodies are dead", which contradicts itself.
I seem to recall chronotrig and others noting that the actual Japanese text uses a mere "counter" as well. Which would be closest to a subjectless "these six are" without specifying what they are six of.

I mean I don't like red twisting either, but I don't think you can demonstrably prove the red is referring to bodies when it says persons, especially since Erika felt compelled to force Battler to be specific about it.
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Old 2012-12-12, 21:27   Link #31370
Kiltias
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Can somebody explain what the hell is wrong with the time in EP 1?

Eva and Hideyoshi were in their room at 7 (so said the TV).
The smell of Kinzos corpse was noticed at 6:30 according to the Clock in the hall.

Important or just a mistake from Ryukishi?
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Old 2012-12-12, 21:43   Link #31371
GabrieliosP
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I'm assuming that you're talking about the anime since you mentioned "clock in the hall, so I can't check right now (no episodes at hand at the moment). Assume it was an (yet another) error from DEEN.
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Old 2012-12-12, 22:18   Link #31372
Kiltias
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Wanderer pointed this out, but just to clarify, you're probably remembering this part of the story wrong. Rosa was definitely in the mansion, and didn't leave, until 1:00am.
I have right in front of me.Don't give me it's incorrect.


Quote:
Nope. Regarding Episode 3 you would clearly ignore Red Truth.
Rosa and Maria are dead.
The causes of death are as Nanjo examined them.
The two, Rosa and Maria, were murdered by another person.


Rosa and Maria are dead.
The causes of death are as Nanjo examined them.
The two, Rosa and Maria, were murdered by other people.
Rosa and Maria are dead.Never argued that.
Cause of Death.Yup fits.
Murder by another person:
I asked that before regarding being killed by others and it was answered that it was ambigious in japanese being brought up that Beato was denying herself which is the same as suicide in her case.


Quote:
I'm assuming that you're talking about the anime since you mentioned "clock in the hall, so I can't check right now (no episodes at hand at the moment). Assume it was an (yet another) error from DEEN.
Manga.
Same one where Maria draws 6 people into the sand when the 9th Twilight was brought on the Beach by Battler..Natsuhi,Battler,Maria and Rosa are clearly visibly drawn by Maria.The other 2 remained unfinished yet shortly before its indicated Maria drew 2 tiny circles into someones face when the others had dots as eyes.
Followed by:
"Everyone dies noone survive" and a wave destroys the drawing at the same time that was said.
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Old 2012-12-12, 22:36   Link #31373
GabrieliosP
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No, I just went and checked, if you pay attention, the clock is actually saying 7:30PM-ish rather than 6PM.
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Old 2012-12-13, 01:28   Link #31374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Murder by another person:
I asked that before regarding being killed by others and it was answered that it was ambigious in japanese being brought up that Beato was denying herself which is the same as suicide in her case.
Nope, it is not ambiguous, it's rather much more clear.
The Japanese is 楼座と真里亞の二人は他殺です the word tasatsu (他殺) means the act of killing by another person than the one being killed. So a (too) direct translation would be, "These two people, who are Rosa and Maria, were killed by another person than themselves."

Concerning Beato it is rather the other way around as well.
When asked about the locked room chain in the same Episode Beato refuses to repeat the sentence "All 6 were murdered by another person", then admits "None of the 6 commited suicide" and was only stopped by Ronove when trying to repeat "None of the 6 died through an accident."
She also refuses to repeat "Kanon was murdered by another person" in EP4 during the final duel about EP1, which leads Battler to assume that he died through an accident because that is neither murder nor suicide.
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Old 2012-12-13, 02:46   Link #31375
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I just realized that KNM's "living human bodies" = "people" definition doesn't work, because then "These 6 people are dead" becomes "These 6 living human bodies are dead", which contradicts itself.
Hahaha, that's a good one. I think this should finally put a nail in the coffin of the argument that the word "people" has to mean the same thing every time it's used.

It's pretty silly that so many people can't believe Shkanon just because of that red.
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Old 2012-12-13, 04:07   Link #31376
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I seem to recall chronotrig and others noting that the actual Japanese text uses a mere "counter" as well. Which would be closest to a subjectless "these six are" without specifying what they are six of.
It uses a counter, yes. A counter for people. It's not the same as the word "people", but it means people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I mean I don't like red twisting either, but I don't think you can demonstrably prove the red is referring to bodies when it says persons, especially since Erika felt compelled to force Battler to be specific about it.
It's funny you say that, because Beatrice saying "3 people- in other words- 3 bodies" is exactly what KnownNoMore claims proves that "person"="body".

KnownNoMore's fundamental flaw... well one of them... is that he doesn't view red as communication between characters, but rather an absolute, perfect word of God from Ryukishi himself. It's like red is the bible to him, which is ironic because he's- you'd know this if you watch some of his other videos- extremely atheistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Hahaha, that's a good one. I think this should finally put a nail in the coffin of the argument that the word "people" has to mean the same thing every time it's used.
I still think it can, it just can't mean what KNM says it does. There are other words with fishy definitions in Umineko, like "exist" and "dead". And, if you watch Renall's video, "everyone".
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Old 2012-12-13, 05:29   Link #31377
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Speaking of exists, I had a question.

In the VN, whenever anyone (including Maria) says Beatrice exists, it's always written as " Beatrice 'exists' "


Is this the same in the Japanese version, and if so, does it have the same implications as in English? Because if I were to use air quotations (which admittedly are written as ") in a sentence, it would usually mean that I am adding an emphasis to the word to imply that I am either using the meaning a bit loosely, acknowledging that what I am saying is probably a lie or outright pointing out that while I am agreeing to use that word, I know %100 it is false (ie, oh sure, the "Cat" ate all the chocolate).

This would be fine if most people used it, but Maria too?
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Old 2012-12-13, 06:36   Link #31378
GabrieliosP
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I think it is because Onscripter lacks the possibilty of using bold and italics for example, and the only way to emphatize a word is like that. They actually aren't using air quotes, but putting emphasis on the word "exist", like they mean: Beatrice exists, but not in the same way I or you exist.
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Old 2012-12-13, 08:11   Link #31379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Speaking of exists, I had a question.

In the VN, whenever anyone (including Maria) says Beatrice exists, it's always written as " Beatrice 'exists' "


Is this the same in the Japanese version, and if so, does it have the same implications as in English?
The Japanese was Beatrice wa "i"ru (ベアトリーチェはいる).
In Japanese there is a distinction between existing as an object or concept (ある=aru) and existing as a being (いる=iru), so by marking it "i"ru it is less a question of whether Beatrice exists in general terms but rather being vague about whether she exists as a being or simply as an object or concept on the island.
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Old 2012-12-13, 08:34   Link #31380
GabrieliosP
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Ah, so it is like that then. Another thing to add to Battler's 18<X<19 people dilema during EP1.
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