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Old 2012-12-12, 07:53   Link #981
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Also, I can't be certain, but I think this is one of the few times in anime when a SEAL platoon hasn't been cannon fodder of the week.
This is one of the few times in Anime where a Special Force of any kind wasn't just a cannon fodder.
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Old 2012-12-12, 08:02   Link #982
hilly
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I believe the idea of Jor plan is to disable all communication all around the world.

At least for example,country A cannot get land resource(petroleum etc) from country B if they didn't have enough information about it.The war will also shrink in scale,no bombing from over the sea.Soldier which cannot get backup form their home country have no choice but surrender when in enemy territory.

But the bad things is the communication between human will disappear,the racist problem will accelerate due to lack of communication.The technology's advance will become slower multiple times...

The meeting between humans surely causes some argument and may escalate into war.
So,Koko just split them up,dividing them so that the countries would never argue between them selves anymore...
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Old 2012-12-12, 08:10   Link #983
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
This is one of the few times in Anime where a Special Force of any kind wasn't just a cannon fodder.
Exactly. FMP aside, the only other time I can recall something like this is in GitS: SAC, in the endgame, with Section Nine against the Umibozu (aka JMSDF SEAL equivalents), what with the Umibozu CO being a badass who countered every single play Section Nine threw at him. (With the exception of the Tachikoma's sacrifice, which to be fair nobody could have reasonably expected.)

Also, looking at the escort team for Rabbitfoot, the camo pattern looks to be the Navy's AOR I instead of the Marine Corps' MARPAT, which would suggest that these are Navy Shore Patrol or Masters at Arms, rather than Marines (also IIRC marines don't use that particular type of shirt).
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Old 2012-12-12, 08:43   Link #984
Gohan78
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Jormungand Season II is defintely a step better than Season I. We finally know the scope of Koko's plan, and it didn't disappoint. She is really loco!

However her plan is full of holes IMHO. It's not like humanity didn't fight wars before 1910. The lack of fighter planes won't stop the African civil wars, for instance.
And if she pulls that stunt, she will instantly become public enemy number one. They know she in South Africa. Does she think that she can fight all of the world's military?

I expected Jonah to oppose Koko's plan. There was some foreshadowing that he will betray her (Kasper asking him to work under him, etc.). From the preview it looks like he won't pull the trigger, but will he stay with Koko or will he become her enemy? Next week can't come soon enough.
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Old 2012-12-12, 08:47   Link #985
Wild Goose
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Y'know, it was implied throughout Season One that Jonah was to serve as a substitute conscience for Koko - IIRC she all but stated out loud that he was her morality chain.

Well, Koko, it looks like your conscience just spoke, and is so horrified at what you are doing that he just pulled a gun on you - irony of ironies, the same gun you gave him, that was intended for him to protect you with.

Except now he's using it to threaten you.

Also I wonder how the next episode will play out - we will still need to see what role those Flankers will play.

Also, a bit of trivia: The drone Koko uses is the SAGEM Sperwer, equipped with Spike antitank guided missiles. IRL, the Sperwer served with the Canadian forces from 2003 to 2009, before being retired, which is probably where Koko got hers; currently the only operators are the French and Greek armies.
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Old 2012-12-12, 09:17   Link #986
-Sho-
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God this cliffhanger.... i'm enjoying it even more...
SEAL vs Koko's team fight was beyond my expectation too (O_O)
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Old 2012-12-12, 10:16   Link #987
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The lyrics to the Koko theme song never fitted better

her plan for world peace is just beyond ridiculous, how on earth is limiting technology going to solve all the conflicts driven by territory, race or religion /facepalm
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Old 2012-12-12, 10:35   Link #988
Moe Connection
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Probably relying on secrecy instead of force of arms.

Remember, Camp No is a black site. Like CIA safehouses, its primary protection is secrecy, which can be compromised by having too many guards.
A company sized unit isn't too large. Besides, they could have had the company wait outside camp no before Rabbitfoot gets out without letting them in. The area was just a part of the Guantanamo Naval base. There's no way the guards would assume that Camp No was anything special. [/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Also, note how fast Nught Nine appeared on site. They were definitely there before the abduction took place, but Plame wanted them to track Koko's team and deal with them while they made their escape: notice how they weren't expecting a SEAL platoon to suddenly ghost in and ambush them.
Either they weren't close enough or the guards they assigned were just too weak. I suspect the later, and whoever planned the whole transport is just stupid. 1. There just wasn't enough troops to hold off the attackers long enough to make an ambush succeed. 2. Fine, you want secrecy, at the very least, send another special forces team to make the escort. Deploy another SEAL team, the Delta Forces, Green Berets, whatever.3. Use a helicopter to transport her, for God's sake--the safest way possible. They can't get her unless they shoot down the helicopter, which they wouldn't do since it might endanger Rabbitfoot as well. The NSA officer who commanded this operation was too short sighted to realize that the success of the operation isn't the annihilation of Koko's team, but making sure that Rabbitfoot doesn't fall into their hands. It's useless to annihilate Koko's team since she can always rebuild one. If they lose Rabbitfoot, it's game-over. He took an unnecessary risk by trying to ambush Koko's team by using Rabbitfoot as a bait.
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Old 2012-12-12, 11:58   Link #989
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by darthfanta View Post
A company sized unit isn't too large. Besides, they could have had the company wait outside camp no before Rabbitfoot gets out without letting them in. The area was just a part of the Guantanamo Naval base. There's no way the guards would assume that Camp No was anything special.
*shrug* I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, given that a full accounting of what is or is not available for escort is never going to fall into our hands. And again, from what we see, it appears that Camp No relied primarily on secrecy - having additional guards to escort Rabbitfoot runs the risk of compromising that secrecy. The more people in the know, the greater the chance the secret gets out.

Admittedly, if that secrecy is compromised, then whatever light forces available can be overwhelmed by an attacker who knows exactly what she is facing, and has planned accordingly. Which is exactly what happened here.

From what I have been told by my friends who are in the military, and from what reading I have done, having a company-sized unit to escort a single person is overkill, particularly given that the package is moving inside a US Navy base, and that any attackers would first need to penetrate the base's security cordon.

(Yes, yes, I am quite aware that a skilled special forces team can infiltrate secured facilities like Camp No; cf Red Cell, and that Lehm-tachi did exactly that.)

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Originally Posted by darthfanta View Post
Either they weren't close enough or the guards they assigned were just too weak. I suspect the later, and whoever planned the whole transport is just stupid.
1. There just wasn't enough troops to hold off the attackers long enough to make an ambush succeed.
In all fairness, the guards appear to be either Marine MPs or Navy SPs/MAAs (I can't really tell, as the coloration of AOR 1 and Desert MARPAT is a bit too similar for my tastes). Their paradigm would be more towards securing the prisoner and ensuring no escapes, with external attack next on the list.

Also, Night Nine's CO may have wanted to have some distance between his platoon, the friendlies, and Koko's team, so as not to get friendlies in the crossfire. SEALs as a general rule view other members of the US Armed Forces as relatives - you may not like them very much, but you'd rather not they get shot.

The most likely reason, however, is just plain physics/drama - it took that long for Night Nine to reach the attack site, and then to pursue Koko's team.

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Originally Posted by darthfanta View Post
2. Fine, you want secrecy, at the very least, send another special forces team to make the escort. Deploy another SEAL team, the Delta Forces, Green Berets, whatever.
Firstly, that presupposes that another SOCOM asset is available. Remember that USSOCOM is tasked worldwide, and that there is a demand everywhere. Also, the more boots on ground, the more you risk information leaks reaching Koko - notice how the appearance of Night Nine caught her team offguard: They were expecting pursuit, but did not expect a SEAL platoon to be chasing them.

Also, you need the right tools for the right job. Delta specialise in surgical strikes, hit and fade raids and blending into the locals: notice how Koko's team performs two outta three, thanks to Lehm's influence. Green Berets are oriented towards hearts and minds, teaching and mentoring: a Green Beret is a warrior teacher, who works with locals to train them to fight the enemy; he can do direct action, but it's not his specialty. Rangers are just light infantry with a bit of SF lite skillset.

The SEALs are the best option for this situation, being a force specialised for direct action in all theaters, and trained to react quickly to changes and adapt to an ever-changing situation. (The fact that the Navy gets to handle this in-house, without involving the Army, is a further bonus). The problem with this is that the SEALs are always in demand; while theoretically the 8 active SEAL Teams have their own Area of Responsibility, in practice they're being parceled out wherever they're needed. No SEAL Team has, as far as I know, deployed as a single team in recent history, but as platoons to designated AORs. It's not unheard of for a SEAL platoon to be split even further to handle AORs on opposite ends of the earth. From what reading I've done, it's rare for more than one SEAL platoon to be in one AOR in the first place.

Only SEAL Team Six, as far as I know, has deployed in large numbers, for Operation Neptune Spear. And even that was an unusual case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthfanta View Post
3. Use a helicopter to transport her, for God's sake--the safest way possible. They can't get her unless they shoot down the helicopter, which they wouldn't do since it might endanger Rabbitfoot as well.
Firstly, the use of a helicopter for internal transport within the base is problematic, as you can't just land a helo anywhere it's physically possible to land - you have all sorts of issues with patrols, flight paths, landing clearance - all of which adds to a paper trail, and more questions raised. Which is what you don't want if your Camp doesn't officially exist, and is reliant on secrecy to protect itself.

Secondly, given the extremely bad weather - a tropical storm with high winds, and rain so strong it throws off aim - I personally doubt that a helicopter would be able to take off. Note how Lehm has them exfil on foot, instead of the Little Birds they used for the Baburin job. Also, note that when the Predator is shot down, they can't launch the backup Reaper due to the weather.

Quote:
The NSA officer who commanded this operation was too short sighted to realize that the success of the operation isn't the annihilation of Koko's team, but making sure that Rabbitfoot doesn't fall into their hands. It's useless to annihilate Koko's team since she can always rebuild one. If they lose Rabbitfoot, it's game-over. He took an unnecessary risk by trying to ambush Koko's team by using Rabbitfoot as a bait.
I agree to an extent, though I should also point out that it's implied that Palme is an ambitious and talented officer, and that he's trying for a win that will give a boost to his career. It does have some merit: He neutralises the kidnap attempt on Rabbitfoot, and annihalating Koko's team will force a delay while she rebuilds, which allows time more options to be pursued. To Palme, who wasn't expecting armed HCLI drones or Dr. Miami's quantum computer fucking with the GPS and maps, this would have appeared as a reasonably risky plan with proportionate rewards. (As a real world example of this thinking, look no further than Operation Gothic Serpent, which did achieve its tactical objectives, before everything went off the rails.)

Remember, Night Nine came within inches of killing Koko's team, despite the loss of the Predator's intel, GPS being jammed and the tactical datalink being hacked. They outgunned, outnumbered and outmatched Koko's team, and it was only her cheating that saved her team.

Of course, as they say in special forces, if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.
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Old 2012-12-12, 12:47   Link #990
Kamui04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacify View Post
The lyrics to the Koko theme song never fitted better

her plan for world peace is just beyond ridiculous, how on earth is limiting technology going to solve all the conflicts driven by territory, race or religion /facepalm
I don't think people understand what Jormungand means. The guy from the CIA from the previous episode understood it better. Like he put it with a quantum computer that can process information and make calculations that supercomputers take thousands of years to make, security and encryption means nothing. The only safe computer or electronic device is a stand alone one. It isn't about limiting technlogy that will bring "peace". Like other people said, dropping planes and stuff is just a show of power. In this technology age, getting all the information and controlling this information, that's the goal. That's why they needed Rabbit Foot. If they can control the flow of goods with Hek-GG and control the flow of information with their quantum computer they can decide who wins a conflict before it even starts. Although small scale and minor conflicts might spark here and there, any major one is under their capabilities to manipulate.

So one megalomaniacal arms dealer has a quantum computer that can hack into any network. Are all the goverments in the world gonna make people stop using the internet, stop using land phones and cellphones? Are people trying to make massive uprisings or wars gonna go back to use smoke signals and secret reunions in basements?

In the real world this might sound absurd and flawed, but we're watching an anime with a ficticious story with some underlaying critic undertones about our world and war.

Another thing is all this discussion about Night Nine being late an all. But you've all been missing the reason. If you watched the end of the previous episode and the prologue of this one the NSA and CIA have very different agendas for Koko and HCLI. Whereas Palme from the NSA wanted to stop them. Bookman wanted a piece of the pie named Jormungand. In the prologue you can see that Fatman was using his contacts in the goverment to screw with Palme or delay Night Nine. It's like Bookman is really trying to play with fire by letting Koko get Rabbit Foot and see the potential of Jormungand. All pointing that because of his hubris it's all gonna bite him back.

Last edited by Kamui04; 2012-12-12 at 13:07.
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Old 2012-12-12, 12:52   Link #991
Kaoru Chujo
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Another great episode. The plan may be flaky, but it's still fascinating. Of course Jonah is right. Great to have scenes from both ends of their relationship: from the bath/kiss to the gun. Good stuff. And fascinating to realize that Koko and Minami are just about equally crazy -- and Rabbitfoot makes three, lol.
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Old 2012-12-12, 12:57   Link #992
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To me this was probably the best ep of the series. Everything comes together beautifully and that's before considering the music used during the fighting scenes. My god. I had a hunch that it would come to this sort of of confrontation, but still.

I need new pants.
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Old 2012-12-12, 13:32   Link #993
lordblazer
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I saw that last scene coming. Koko is unstable. The only reason why her entourage even stays by her side is because they want to be on the winning side. When Koko's brother wanted Jonah to work for him again, it was most likely just for this reason
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Old 2012-12-12, 14:06   Link #994
ookamigirl
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Some serious action this time.
It was about time for it too.
Koko really had a great plan.
She thought it through really well.
Bath time looked nice.
That Jonah sure has some privileges.
OMG has she finally gotten off the rails?
Anyway, it's going to be really interesting seeing that plan work.
Jonah's reaction to that was pretty normal.
Everyone else being silent was kinda off.
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Old 2012-12-12, 16:16   Link #995
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Of course Jonah is right.
"Of course" is entirely dependent on your moral outlook.

Koko is obviously dealing with issues raised from her rather unique upbringing, and her specific plan is a rather loony extension of that, but the broader idea of whether it's ok or not to sacrifice something for the greater good will always be a fun argument to have.

I'm fairly certain at this point that I know where this is all headed (and I'm going to be doing some serious eyerolling when we get there), but it would be amusing for the dvds/blurays to be published with alternative outtakes in the extras section, with one where Koko simply responds in a deadpan manner to Jonah's outburst with a double tap to his forehead.
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Old 2012-12-12, 16:21   Link #996
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I really don't see how her plan will bring world peace, though. People are still going to want to kill each other. On foot and with their bare hands if they need to, but it won't come to that, no matter what her magic computer can do.
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Old 2012-12-12, 16:28   Link #997
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This episode had me on the edge of my seat the whole time. And that ending, while predictable, was incredibly intense. Koko is either seriously loco or doesn't understand Jonah at all. Or maybe a bit of both. She should have known he would never accept that plan. He's not the kind of person willing to sacrifice innocent people for the greater good. Not to mention, her plan is seriously flawed. There is no way this is going to lead to world peace, in fact it will probably only make things worse since it will end the era of nuclear deterrence. She's completely delusional.
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Old 2012-12-12, 17:52   Link #998
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I like the way you summarized things, Kamui04.
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Old 2012-12-12, 18:02   Link #999
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I really don't see how her plan will bring world peace, though. People are still going to want to kill each other. On foot and with their bare hands if they need to, but it won't come to that, no matter what her magic computer can do.
The fact of the matter is that while people will want to kill each other, it becomes almost unfeasible without the logistics to support the killing. The only conflicts that are possible will only be local ones. Raising the barrier to warfare will definitely reduce a lot of war, especially if that barrier is any equipment you can't send by car.

While this won't stop conflict entirely, over the long term it will reduce lives lost. It's difficult to have mass murders or genocides if overwhelming firepower is reduced.

With Jormungand able to deny any shipping they don't like and Hek-GG able to ship anything, anywhere, anytime, they decide winners. Don't like Syria's Assad? Jam all his tactical movement and coordination and supply the rebels. Don't like the rebels afterwards? Deny them trade completely after they win.

If people can't fight without knowing that someone's going to swoop in and deny you while helping the enemy, they're a lot less likely to start things.

That being said, Jormungand alone can't do it all. North Korea could decimate South Korea with their already in place artillery. Anything low tech or already in place isn't going to be badly hurt by Jormungand. Local conflicts like Hutus and Tutsis would still go strong, although slower with no more bullets and only improvised weapons. You'd still need someone benevolent to guard against the aggressor. I suspect Koko probably has some sort of follow up to prevent smaller scale conflicts. Manipulate UN peacekeeping forces maybe? Jormungand would definitely allow you to strong-arm any military forces on the planet into assisting you. Hell, Hek-GG could provide all the world-wide force allocation that used to be the sole privilege of the US.

A combination of Jormungand with an intervention force guaranteed to have better supplies, training, technology, and size could guarantee world peace.
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Old 2012-12-12, 18:37   Link #1000
Dop
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Wow. Truly wow. At the end of the episode I was literally on the edge of my seat.

Koko in her hotel room directing her drone to take out the US drone was really something. When she misdirected the SEALS to the border, that was top stuff.

But her speech at the end was truly epic.

Why isn't it next Wednesday yet?
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