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Old 2012-12-12, 19:36   Link #1001
Spectacular_Insanity
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacify View Post
The lyrics to the Koko theme song never fitted better

her plan for world peace is just beyond ridiculous, how on earth is limiting technology going to solve all the conflicts driven by territory, race or religion /facepalm
It isn't, but it would severely limit worldwide military actions. ICBMs would be impossible, so at the very least this system would completely prevent the possibility of nuclear war.

But if the quantum computer is so amazing, why didn't Koko just have each aircraft's controls malfunction and shut down AFTER they land? Surely waiting a day or two for the full effect to take place would be better than killing all those people.
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Old 2012-12-12, 19:41   Link #1002
Terrestrial Dream
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Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity View Post
It isn't, but it would severely limit worldwide military actions. ICBMs would be impossible, so at the very least this system would completely prevent the possibility of nuclear war.

But if the quantum computer is so amazing, why didn't Koko just have each aircraft's controls malfunction and shut down AFTER they land? Surely waiting a day or two for the full effect to take place would be better than killing all those people.
I am guessing it would quicker and easier, also it would create a bigger message around the world.
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Old 2012-12-12, 20:00   Link #1003
Spectacular_Insanity
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Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post
I am guessing it would quicker and easier, also it would create a bigger message around the world.
It would also make her EVEN MORE public enemy #1. I don't think seven personal soldiers will help her much when that happens.

And on a less serious note...



I want a 24-hour loop of this.
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Old 2012-12-12, 21:27   Link #1004
prototype_sky
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The fact of the matter is that while people will want to kill each other, it becomes almost unfeasible without the logistics to support the killing. The only conflicts that are possible will only be local ones. Raising the barrier to warfare will definitely reduce a lot of war, especially if that barrier is any equipment you can't send by car.

While this won't stop conflict entirely, over the long term it will reduce lives lost. It's difficult to have mass murders or genocides if overwhelming firepower is reduced.

With Jormungand able to deny any shipping they don't like and Hek-GG able to ship anything, anywhere, anytime, they decide winners. Don't like Syria's Assad? Jam all his tactical movement and coordination and supply the rebels. Don't like the rebels afterwards? Deny them trade completely after they win.

If people can't fight without knowing that someone's going to swoop in and deny you while helping the enemy, they're a lot less likely to start things.

That being said, Jormungand alone can't do it all. North Korea could decimate South Korea with their already in place artillery. Anything low tech or already in place isn't going to be badly hurt by Jormungand. Local conflicts like Hutus and Tutsis would still go strong, although slower with no more bullets and only improvised weapons. You'd still need someone benevolent to guard against the aggressor. I suspect Koko probably has some sort of follow up to prevent smaller scale conflicts. Manipulate UN peacekeeping forces maybe? Jormungand would definitely allow you to strong-arm any military forces on the planet into assisting you. Hell, Hek-GG could provide all the world-wide force allocation that used to be the sole privilege of the US.

A combination of Jormungand with an intervention force guaranteed to have better supplies, training, technology, and size could guarantee world peace.

Satellites and GPS didn't exist for World War 1 and 2 so her little plan does nothing
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Old 2012-12-12, 21:49   Link #1005
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Satellites and GPS didn't exist for World War 1 and 2 so her little plan does nothing
But the world of Jormugnand is in 21st century not early to mid 20th century. The world has changed alot since then, military relies on technology more than ever.
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Old 2012-12-12, 22:04   Link #1006
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The Jormungand plan sounds really ridiculous. People already know where they keep the quantum computer, and they more or less know what she's up to. If you piss off entire nations by so blatantly crippling and manipulating their information and electronic infrastructure, you can be sure the "toy factory" is the first thing to get blown up, and that'd be the end of that.
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Old 2012-12-12, 22:39   Link #1007
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The Jormungand plan sounds really ridiculous. People already know where they keep the quantum computer, and they more or less know what she's up to. If you piss off entire nations by so blatantly crippling and manipulating their information and electronic infrastructure, you can be sure the "toy factory" is the first thing to get blown up, and that'd be the end of that.
That's why Koko shut down the sky first...
On the phase where she reveals her Jormugand, she can already re-write basicly any digital map or GPS application. Long range missile or military aircraft will not work...


The only way for entire nation fought Koko is by relying on manual war equipment.
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Old 2012-12-12, 22:39   Link #1008
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That may be true unless Koko has taken that into consideration and hid it from the public.

Oh well, not like the manga gave more details as far as the ones shown in the episode IIRC.
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Old 2012-12-12, 22:49   Link #1009
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Well that is an insane plan where is Hotel Moscow when you need them
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Old 2012-12-12, 23:28   Link #1010
prototype_sky
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Originally Posted by Azuma Denton View Post
That's why Koko shut down the sky first...
On the phase where she reveals her Jormugand, she can already re-write basicly any digital map or GPS application. Long range missile or military aircraft will not work...


The only way for entire nation fought Koko is by relying on manual war equipment.

Which is pretty doable especially since she herself doesn't have much of an army. She'd have to be like the villain in Call of Duty Black Ops 2 and take over all the drones as well to make up for the army she doesn't have. Either way if the whole world gangs up on her she's finished she need a super power as an ally to even stand a chance.
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Old 2012-12-12, 23:31   Link #1011
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Originally Posted by Master_Yoma View Post
Well that is an insane plan where is Hotel Moscow when you need them
There's fanfiction for that.

Especially with the confrontation between Jonah and Koko. Makes great fanfiction material.
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Old 2012-12-12, 23:40   Link #1012
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Originally Posted by prototype_sky View Post
Which is pretty doable especially since she herself doesn't have much of an army. She'd have to be like the villain in Call of Duty Black Ops 2 and take over all the drones as well to make up for the army she doesn't have. Either way if the whole world gangs up on her she's finished she need a super power as an ally to even stand a chance.
She can effectively blackmail herself an army at any time. If you threaten to shut down some country's trade and economy if they don't send X troops to place Y to maintain peace for Z time, some country's going to do it. If everyone resists, then it becomes game theory. She can say the first country to crumble to her demands can reap huge rewards (enhanced trade and economy).

Jormungand turns any force she doesn't like into a force with the power projection capabilities for an African Militia. They'll have cars, machine guns, and explosives. She'll have all the cruise missiles, predators, and satellite uplinks. She could stand up to any superpower because they wouldn't be superpowers any more. Pure manpower means nothing if you can't allocate it to the right part of the world.
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Old 2012-12-13, 09:16   Link #1013
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Don't forget that with Jormungand, she has access to the American military's milnet. Consider how she hacked the Navy's tactical datalink. Then recall something: Sure, the US military has the best logistics in the world, and they don't need Hek-GG. But how are those logistics delivered? Orders. How are those orders transmitted? Electronically via the US milnet.

With Jormungand, Koko can intercept any orders for movement of troops and supplies. Even if the US goes completely analog, it would then hamper their power projection and coordination abilities. The US has the best troops in the world, but that means jack shit if they can't transport those troops or keep them supplied, because the orders are literally being lost, as Koko is intercepting them.

It's almost like Skynet, except in reverse.
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Old 2012-12-14, 04:15   Link #1014
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Don't forget that with Jormungand, she has access to the American military's milnet. Consider how she hacked the Navy's tactical datalink. Then recall something: Sure, the US military has the best logistics in the world, and they don't need Hek-GG. But how are those logistics delivered? Orders. How are those orders transmitted? Electronically via the US milnet.

With Jormungand, Koko can intercept any orders for movement of troops and supplies. Even if the US goes completely analog, it would then hamper their power projection and coordination abilities. The US has the best troops in the world, but that means jack shit if they can't transport those troops or keep them supplied, because the orders are literally being lost, as Koko is intercepting them.
But they only need to send troops to South Africa and commandeer or destory the "toy factory". Koko may have a satellite grid and some drones but she only has 8 mercenaries at her disposal.

Also, isn't it true that ICBMs rely on completely standalone systems to prevent any possibility of hacking? The U.S. can still nuke Koko's ass.

I want to give Takahashi the benefit of the doubt, but unless he pulls some ridiculous stunt like all the satellites are equipped with Death Rays, I don't see how the Jormungand Plan can work.
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Old 2012-12-14, 06:43   Link #1015
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Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
But they only need to send troops to South Africa and commandeer or destory the "toy factory". Koko may have a satellite grid and some drones but she only has 8 mercenaries at her disposal.

Also, isn't it true that ICBMs rely on completely standalone systems to prevent any possibility of hacking? The U.S. can still nuke Koko's ass.

I want to give Takahashi the benefit of the doubt, but unless he pulls some ridiculous stunt like all the satellites are equipped with Death Rays, I don't see how the Jormungand Plan can work.
Great points. I'm going to try and pan out the steps and counter steps.

The launch protocols are standalone, but the targeting systems aren't. This US might have isolated systems but... the other countries might not.

The targeting problem should be surmountable, given time. They'd simply need to isolate targeting systems, then manually calculate trajectories not based on GPS or other networked systems, not impossible. They could then also communicate with other countries and warn them that they're using nukes not as a first-strike against countries but simply to let them all regain their sovereignty too.

The only problem is confirming that the toy factory has the quantum computer. Since the nuclear option is, quite literally, the nuclear option, they need hard evidence that it's in South Africa and there's no duplicate. Everybody only suspects it's in Africa; there's no actual confirmation. So the plan of action is a) confirming the number of quantum computers and b) confirming their location. It'll be hard to disprove the number of computers and confirming their location.

Of course, given enough time and enough madmen in the world with nukes, someone might think that it's worth taking a shot. Maybe Koko would inform the world that if something gets launched, she wipes every networked computer in that country. Any country that relies on computers gets sent back to the stone age, ignoring hardened, disconnected networks that would definitely exist (but are only military). The civilian computers become bricks and kills the economy until they can reinstall all OSs and restore records from offline and paper, likely years of setback.

But then a country could cut their internet, then nuke. But then A whole country network outage is prior warning to the nuclear options. So maybe she threatens to use some other country's networked nukes against them? Not likely any unprotected nukes will be left after the long term though...

However, the nuclear option only works if there's one quantum computer but there's no guarantee that it's only one and not ten.

Over the long enough time period however, country militaries, industries, and critical supply lines harden their systems to all work offline and less efficient that now, but still let them wage war. Probably war resumes at a pre-World War One level soon. But it'll guarantee peace for ages.

TL;DR: Over the short-term, countries can nuke to win, but only if they can 100% confirm the location of every quantum computer and nuke them all at the same time. Over the long-long-long term, everybody goes back to pre-World War I tech and fights that way.
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Old 2012-12-14, 21:57   Link #1016
prototype_sky
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
Great points. I'm going to try and pan out the steps and counter steps.

The launch protocols are standalone, but the targeting systems aren't. This US might have isolated systems but... the other countries might not.

The targeting problem should be surmountable, given time. They'd simply need to isolate targeting systems, then manually calculate trajectories not based on GPS or other networked systems, not impossible. They could then also communicate with other countries and warn them that they're using nukes not as a first-strike against countries but simply to let them all regain their sovereignty too.

The only problem is confirming that the toy factory has the quantum computer. Since the nuclear option is, quite literally, the nuclear option, they need hard evidence that it's in South Africa and there's no duplicate. Everybody only suspects it's in Africa; there's no actual confirmation. So the plan of action is a) confirming the number of quantum computers and b) confirming their location. It'll be hard to disprove the number of computers and confirming their location.

Of course, given enough time and enough madmen in the world with nukes, someone might think that it's worth taking a shot. Maybe Koko would inform the world that if something gets launched, she wipes every networked computer in that country. Any country that relies on computers gets sent back to the stone age, ignoring hardened, disconnected networks that would definitely exist (but are only military). The civilian computers become bricks and kills the economy until they can reinstall all OSs and restore records from offline and paper, likely years of setback.

But then a country could cut their internet, then nuke. But then A whole country network outage is prior warning to the nuclear options. So maybe she threatens to use some other country's networked nukes against them? Not likely any unprotected nukes will be left after the long term though...

However, the nuclear option only works if there's one quantum computer but there's no guarantee that it's only one and not ten.

Over the long enough time period however, country militaries, industries, and critical supply lines harden their systems to all work offline and less efficient that now, but still let them wage war. Probably war resumes at a pre-World War One level soon. But it'll guarantee peace for ages.

TL;DR: Over the short-term, countries can nuke to win, but only if they can 100% confirm the location of every quantum computer and nuke them all at the same time. Over the long-long-long term, everybody goes back to pre-World War I tech and fights that way.
Koko's acting this way can't lead to world peace it'll just trigger another world war. Maybe there will be world peace when 95% of the world population is dead in the aftermath and the remaining 5% is to busy trying to survive to fight each other on any large scale
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Old 2012-12-14, 22:36   Link #1017
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Koko's acting this way can't lead to world peace it'll just trigger another world war. Maybe there will be world peace when 95% of the world population is dead in the aftermath and the remaining 5% is to busy trying to survive to fight each other on any large scale
You've given no reasons why it would trigger a world war (that can't happen because no one can move troops anyway). Nukes are unlikely, so no reduction of the population as well.
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Old 2012-12-15, 06:56   Link #1018
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
Great points. I'm going to try and pan out the steps and counter steps.

The launch protocols are standalone, but the targeting systems aren't. This US might have isolated systems but... the other countries might not.

The targeting problem should be surmountable, given time. They'd simply need to isolate targeting systems, then manually calculate trajectories not based on GPS or other networked systems, not impossible. They could then also communicate with other countries and warn them that they're using nukes not as a first-strike against countries but simply to let them all regain their sovereignty too.

The only problem is confirming that the toy factory has the quantum computer. Since the nuclear option is, quite literally, the nuclear option, they need hard evidence that it's in South Africa and there's no duplicate. Everybody only suspects it's in Africa; there's no actual confirmation. So the plan of action is a) confirming the number of quantum computers and b) confirming their location. It'll be hard to disprove the number of computers and confirming their location.

Of course, given enough time and enough madmen in the world with nukes, someone might think that it's worth taking a shot. Maybe Koko would inform the world that if something gets launched, she wipes every networked computer in that country. Any country that relies on computers gets sent back to the stone age, ignoring hardened, disconnected networks that would definitely exist (but are only military). The civilian computers become bricks and kills the economy until they can reinstall all OSs and restore records from offline and paper, likely years of setback.

But then a country could cut their internet, then nuke. But then A whole country network outage is prior warning to the nuclear options. So maybe she threatens to use some other country's networked nukes against them? Not likely any unprotected nukes will be left after the long term though...

However, the nuclear option only works if there's one quantum computer but there's no guarantee that it's only one and not ten.

Over the long enough time period however, country militaries, industries, and critical supply lines harden their systems to all work offline and less efficient that now, but still let them wage war. Probably war resumes at a pre-World War One level soon. But it'll guarantee peace for ages.

TL;DR: Over the short-term, countries can nuke to win, but only if they can 100% confirm the location of every quantum computer and nuke them all at the same time. Over the long-long-long term, everybody goes back to pre-World War I tech and fights that way.
Except those "pre-World War I" armies will all be pointed at Koko. That's what she has to guard against.

She also has to worry about EMP nukes - those don't need to be all that accurate, and all they'll do is take away her advantage. Why not use them?
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Old 2012-12-15, 10:41   Link #1019
prototype_sky
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You've given no reasons why it would trigger a world war (that can't happen because no one can move troops anyway). Nukes are unlikely, so no reduction of the population as well.
If all of Russia's satellite went dead or they lost control you think they won't assume it is not an attack by the US and vice versa

Also what to you mean no one can move troops?
There is a reason why submarines and carriers are nuclear powered
and sailors still need to learn how to navigate using a compass and the stars
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Old 2012-12-16, 00:14   Link #1020
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity View Post
It isn't, but it would severely limit worldwide military actions. ICBMs would be impossible, so at the very least this system would completely prevent the possibility of nuclear war.
Except it was possible to make ICBM's before interconnected computer networks. all you need to guide a ICBM is gyroscopes. There's no way to hack something like that. So I don't really think Yoko's plan isn't really any kind of long term solution to anything really...certainly not enough to justify killing 700 thousand people for starters.
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But the world of Jormugnand is in 21st century not early to mid 20th century. The world has changed alot since then, military relies on technology more than ever.
That doesn't make it impossible to fight wars. It just means that armies have to adapt...and lets be honest. EVERYONE is going to adapt if Yoko goes and kills 700k people with her super weapon.
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