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Old 2012-12-12, 03:01   Link #21841
kuroishinigami
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
^ It's because mana is produced from life force at realtime (i.e., the magician only releases mana and only the amount he/she needs at that moment for a particular spell, probably unless that spell is designed to produce more mana than what is used), and that mechanic doesn't apply to espers. This is one big difference between espers and magicians.
You missed my point. Theoritically, everybody can use magic, even espers(for example Accelerator can use magic even though he never learnt it before becoming esper), but the law of Kamachi stated that people explode when they use magic in a place filled with esper's AIM, just like Vento did, which brings me the question, why some magician can still use magic in place filled with AIM radiation such as AC.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
If you can imagine the body of an Esper as a 'temple' with it's own laws, and the laws within that 'temple' conflicts with the laws of magic.

A magician's body doesn't have those laws within it.

So what the Artificial Heaven does is to place it's own laws into the existing world outside to screw with how magic works.
Aah, but by definition, radiated AIM in itself alter the law in the existing world(for example, wind turbine turning without wind or electricity just by having Mikoto nearby), albeit in an extremely smaller scale than Artificial Heaven. In a city filled with such law changing field from millions of people, how can some people still use magic while espers with almost no power but has done the esper program can use magic.

In your analogy, if the body of esper with its own set of law, then the AIM radiation field od said esper is the law leaking out from the temple that's adopted much more loosely in the neighborhood. In AC, there's million of such temple, so the neighborhod's law in AC must have change unexplicably just from the loosely adopted laws from that millions of temple. How can magic's law still work on such neighborhood where the aw has transformed(not completely maybe, but still transformed from the leaked AIM)?
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Old 2012-12-12, 03:34   Link #21842
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
Aah, but by definition, radiated AIM in itself alter the law in the existing world(for example, wind turbine turning without wind or electricity just by having Mikoto nearby), albeit in an extremely smaller scale than Artificial Heaven. In a city filled with such law changing field from millions of people, how can some people still use magic while espers with almost no power but has done the esper program can use magic.

In your analogy, if the body of esper with its own set of law, then the AIM radiation field od said esper is the law leaking out from the temple that's adopted much more loosely in the neighborhood. In AC, there's million of such temple, so the neighborhod's law in AC must have change unexplicably just from the loosely adopted laws from that millions of temple. How can magic's law still work on such neighborhood where the aw has transformed(not completely maybe, but still transformed from the leaked AIM)?
I've given it some thought and I think that's a misconception that a lot of us have for the longest time- Myself included, so let me try this again.

What you're thinking of is AIM field -> New Laws, but in fact what is happening is New Laws -> AIM field. What we've all been thinking was that AIM particle/energy/thingy is harmful to magic, but AIM by itself is not the least bit harmful at all (In fact it's main characteristic is to be unassuming and weak) when I went back to check all the text regarding Imaginary Number District and the only thing they have mentioned to be harmful is the New Laws (Correct me if I missed out something).

Then what makes the AIM field of Imaginary Number District different? I would say that it's more structured and resembling of a 'World/Plane/Dimension', rather than a collection of random powers, and how that is accomplished is by certain inputs into Kazakiri, via Last Order or some other individual/object with a link to the Imaginary Number District.

Basically, introducing a stimulus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume 6
However, the Five Elements Institution was as unstable as water at 0 degrees Celsius and in vacuum state.

Under vacuum state, when the pressure’s really low, as the freezing point drops, water won’t freeze even when it’s 0 degrees Celsius. However, by using something like a stick to stir it, the vacuum state water would freeze.

...How does that sound ?

Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2012-12-12 at 03:46.
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Old 2012-12-12, 08:41   Link #21843
leukrota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
but the law of Kamachi stated that people explode when they use magic in a place filled with esper's AIM
Ok, that was never stated.

The way I believe the effect works is like this: What makes magicians go haywire isn't the AIM field, but the Five Layer System, which uses AIM.

If it was the AIM what created the effect by itself, there would have been no need to use LO in the first place.

Also, within regular espers, it is not the AIM what makes them incompatible with magic, but their Personal Reality.
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Old 2012-12-12, 09:37   Link #21844
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
I don't think so- Accelerator has been different ever since Russia; While I don't think he'll feel guilty, I do think he'll do things differently this time.
Who knows...Accelerator is Accelerator....
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Old 2012-12-12, 09:44   Link #21845
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leukrota View Post
Ok, that was never stated.

The way I believe the effect works is like this: What makes magicians go haywire isn't the AIM field, but the Five Layer System, which uses AIM.

If it was the AIM what created the effect by itself, there would have been no need to use LO in the first place.

Also, within regular espers, it is not the AIM what makes them incompatible with magic, but their Personal Reality.
Or just see it this way...Hyouka is an Angel...would her AIM component be same as human Esper? It's like Telesma and Mana
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Old 2012-12-12, 15:42   Link #21846
Chaos2Frozen
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The full name is Imaginary Number District - Five Element Institution; the AIM field created by all of the city's Espers by itself is completely harmless, but when the right stimulus (codes) get input into it, the whole thing becomes a separate dimension with it's own laws (sort of a Personal Reality I guess?) and those screw with the existing magic laws in the area.
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Old 2012-12-13, 02:35   Link #21847
Stufu
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Is it possible that Aleister may want to activate FUSE=Kazakiri again?
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Old 2012-12-13, 02:41   Link #21848
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stufu View Post
Is it possible that Aleister may want to activate FUSE=Kazakiri again?
Oh most definitely, but it's not a question of if he wants but whether or not he can.

Putting aside the whole 'unable to predict' part of it, the first problem is that unlike 0930, it's kinda hard to hide your giant glowing Angel wings from everyone in the city- granted at this point it might seem unnecessary to hide it but I think it would cause tons of little problems if the public becomes too aware of things.

But an even bigger problem is unless he has another means to input the codes into the Imaginary Number District *cough Full Tuning* they would need to do all that crap with capturing Last Order etc. etc...
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Old 2012-12-13, 03:05   Link #21849
leukrota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Oh most definitely, but it's not a question of if he wants but whether or not he can.
I wouldn't be surprised if he could. Accelerator "hogging" LO shouldn't be enough to twart Aleister's plans, and FUSE=Kazakiri seems to be a central part. He most likely has several other means to move ahead the "master plan"... As you "subtly" said, Full Tuning might be one of them.

BTW, thinking about that Imaginary Number District. I wonder if it was somehow inspired in the concept of holistic espers, or even Kreutune herself, considering how it alters the laws macroscopically (even if it's just within an AIM aggregate)
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Old 2012-12-13, 04:51   Link #21850
OverNOut
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Will the manifestation of Aiwass cause the same effect(perhaps more) to magicians like when Fuse=KAZAKIRI manifest since both require AIM dispersion fields to manifest?

Also since Kakine is now mostly made out of his Dark Matter, does that mean he will be instantly or gradually be destroyed if Touma touches him with Imagine Breaker?
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Old 2012-12-13, 04:59   Link #21851
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverNOut View Post
Will the manifestation of Aiwass cause the same effect(perhaps more) to magicians like when Fuse=KAZAKIRI manifest since both require AIM dispersion fields to manifest?
I believe Aiwass said that Kazakiri is like an alpha prototype of itself... Not the exact words but yeah.

Quote:
Also since Kakine is now mostly made out of his Dark Matter, does that mean he will be instantly or gradually be destroyed if Touma touches him with Imagine Breaker?
The thing is, all of dark matter can be considered his body- I wouldn't be surprise if he has multiple of them... so you'll still need to find his brains.
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Old 2012-12-13, 07:56   Link #21852
tsunade666
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I don't think smashing the brain of Kakine will even kill him. Those white sticky thread substance is his body itself. You need to destroy everything up to the microscopic level to even try to kill it and even that. Like what you said. He might have left spares behind. But for Imagine breaker..... well it will outright kill the thread monster but if there are separate bodies it still won't count as a total kill. It will be hard killing Kakine now.
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Old 2012-12-13, 17:08   Link #21853
Mr.Kyon
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You're gonna need lots of tissues, that's fo sure.
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Old 2012-12-13, 21:25   Link #21854
kuroishinigami
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the brain is the one that produce the body tissues. If his brain is destroyed, Kakine will most likely die because there will no longer be a command center that order his ability to produce the tissue, and he will still be dead anyway with a body without a brain. Well, Kamachi can always invent a new technology by the Kiharas to replace the brain function if he want to, but there's no such indication so far.
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Old 2012-12-13, 22:34   Link #21855
judasmartel
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Of course, Cyber=Kakine would still be a possibility, albeit very slim. (And yes, I'm very much still into it.)

But for now, I guess Zombie=Kakine would do.
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Old 2012-12-14, 03:21   Link #21856
desrtsku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
the brain is the one that produce the body tissues. If his brain is destroyed, Kakine will most likely die because there will no longer be a command center that order his ability to produce the tissue, and he will still be dead anyway with a body without a brain. Well, Kamachi can always invent a new technology by the Kiharas to replace the brain function if he want to, but there's no such indication so far.
ok ... then how do you explain the way crazy wheelchair Kihara survived that brain and heart destruction from NT4?
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Old 2012-12-14, 03:25   Link #21857
Awrya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
the brain is the one that produce the body tissues. If his brain is destroyed, Kakine will most likely die because there will no longer be a command center that order his ability to produce the tissue, and he will still be dead anyway with a body without a brain. Well, Kamachi can always invent a new technology by the Kiharas to replace the brain function if he want to, but there's no such indication so far.
Not so sure about that, Accelerator split his brain in three in Vol.15, that'd normally stop all brain activities.
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Old 2012-12-14, 03:31   Link #21858
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Awrya View Post
Not so sure about that, Accelerator split his brain in three in Vol.15, that'd normally stop all brain activities.
Actually reading that passage from vol 19, it's more likely that the scientists extracted his brains into three parts (in some miraculous procedure) rather than Accelerator destroying it.

Quote:
“But at least I have it better than Kakine Teitoku. It seems that #2 was collected in an even worse state than me. His brain was split into three pieces and each one was stuck in a container full of some sticky liquid and a machine even larger than a refrigerator was installed on his side to preserve only his crushed organs. It seems he’s really nothing more than an object used to produce his Level 5 power.”
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Old 2012-12-14, 11:15   Link #21859
Miraluka
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And all of this. .. for science! !!
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Old 2012-12-14, 20:06   Link #21860
shmaster
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Chaos, there is one hole in your theory.
If what you have stated is true, then why Accelerator, even not in his angel state, felt pressured by the prescene of magic and vice versa?
In his normal state, he certainly could not maintain the other worldly laws alone.
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