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Old 2012-12-13, 09:17   Link #31381
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I still think it can, it just can't mean what KNM says it does. There are other words with fishy definitions in Umineko, like "exist" and "dead". And, if you watch Renall's video, "everyone".
Um, I'm the one who takes the expression "everyone else" at face value, something neither Ryukishi nor KnownNoMore does. Do they count absolutely everyone else? No. Well, red is God, bitches, you can't just ignore it! Clearly, Ryukishi meant literally everyone or he wouldn't have said that.

I may have slightly stretched the definition of "the cousins' room," just a wee bit... but I think my reasoning that it's defined as "the room containing 'everyone else'" is totally solid!
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Old 2012-12-13, 09:40   Link #31382
Kiltias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Nope, it is not ambiguous, it's rather much more clear.
The Japanese is 楼座と真里亞の二人は他殺です the word tasatsu (他殺) means the act of killing by another person than the one being killed. So a (too) direct translation would be, "These two people, who are Rosa and Maria, were killed by another person than themselves."

Concerning Beato it is rather the other way around as well.
When asked about the locked room chain in the same Episode Beato refuses to repeat the sentence "All 6 were murdered by another person", then admits "None of the 6 commited suicide" and was only stopped by Ronove when trying to repeat "None of the 6 died through an accident."
She also refuses to repeat "Kanon was murdered by another person" in EP4 during the final duel about EP1, which leads Battler to assume that he died through an accident because that is neither murder nor suicide.
I merely gave the answer that was given to me in this Thread when I first posted here and noone objected to that answer.



Anyway I do apologize for bringing up Rosa but the manga simply puts so much on it.
I just can't see anything else when for example Evatrice mentions Rosa dreams to be a witch and flying around like a Butterfly while Maria mentions Beatrice entered the Parlor in EP 1 by turning into Butterflies as well Rosa trapping other Butterflies into spiderwebs.
Not to mention, Evatrice being stated to be the Black Witch that is a chain of pain and sadness who's source is Eva.I mean:
EP 1- Gets mad at Maria after returning from the Adults Conference.
EP 2- Gets mad at Maria after Eva mocks her.
EP 3- Evatrice appears in the Garden to Rosa and Maria after Eva solved the Epitaph and found the gold.
And in all 3 cases Beatrice appears and in EP 4 Beatrice appears to Maria also when Rosa freaked out after coming from another business trip which at least according to wiki says were meetings with Rudolf and Eva.
I mean, a connection between Beatrice,Rosa and the Black Witch is undeniable and it all fits Mariage Sorcerie as well perfectly.
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Old 2012-12-13, 10:49   Link #31383
GabrieliosP
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Yeah, Rosa did meet with Rudolf and Eva before the conference to plan how to extract money from Krauss, but was it stated that it was the same trip? According to the workers at her shop, she was in a trip with her boyfriend. Why would she lie saying that she was going to a vacation with her boyfriend, when she could have said that she went to have a business trip with her siblings?
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Old 2012-12-13, 13:51   Link #31384
Kiltias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GabrieliosP View Post
Yeah, Rosa did meet with Rudolf and Eva before the conference to plan how to extract money from Krauss, but was it stated that it was the same trip?

According to the workers at her shop, she was in a trip with her boyfriend. Why would she lie saying that she was going to a vacation with her boyfriend, when she could have said that she went to have a business trip with her siblings?
I highly doubt they met up more than once especially with such a theme.
Embezzlement,extracting Money,Suspecting their brother hiding Kinzos death, heck Krauss could have gone to Jail.
That's not something you discuss on a very single trip.

First of all:
Her employee merely went by what he/she heard.
And even then, Rosa had her day off so there is no need to lie to her employees but solely to Maria which can easily be explained with not wanting to drag her into the Adults business as well as wanting to keep the meetings secret at any cost.
Rudolf even calls it "A Joint Conspiracy".
No doubt the Adults intended to keep it secret at any cost as each one had their own issues they wanted to keep secret.
Hideyoshi with his stocks,Rudolf with the Trial and Rosas Endorsers.

And even then, my point still stands as Rosa once again went mad at Maria after an encounter with Eva at Atami.
So let me say it again:
In Episode 1 Rosa hits Maria after the Adults conference.
in Episode 2 Rosa hits Maria after Eva mocks her.
In Episode 3 Eva solves the Riddle and Rosa and Maria see Evatrice, stated as the Black Witch which is what Maria says about Rosa when she's mad that she's possessed.
In Episode 4 we see this at least once, on her return from Atami, a comfirmed meeting of Adults and hits Maria and potentially another time at a meeting in Sapporo where sh- really hits the fan.

And there is no disargueing that the Black Witch is linked to Beatrice.
Just look at Ange and Maria belonging to the same Alliance and both being related to the Black Witch/Evatrice.
Eva-Rosa-Maria
Eva-Ange
Quote:
You could probably say that through the formation of the alliance, Beatrice gained the Endless Power in true sense.
Maria is stated to have the magic of happiness put in the Black Witch being a chain of pain and sadness and being portrayed as Evatrice.

"Marias magic of happiness severed the chain of pain and sadness that dwelled within Rosa giving her power, defeating Evatrice and giving power to Beatrice."
If Rosa is possessed,Beatrice appears.
Proof is in Episode 1, Rosa gets mad after the Conference, possessed by the Black Witch/Evatrice/Agitated cause of her hated sister,Beatrice appears to Maria while Rosa was in the Garden.Maria and Rosa make up.
Proof is in Episode 2, Gets gets mad after Eva has mocked her.Rosa is once again possessed by the Black Witch/Evatrice/Agitated cause of her sister.When Rosa went to apologize, Beatrice appears.The two made up.
Proof is in Episode 3, Black Witch = Evatrice = Mad Rosa. Evatrice (thus a mad Rosa) appears after of all people Eva solved the Riddle.Beatrice AGAIN appears to them though its stated Beatrice can't be the Golden Witch anymore and both end dead.
Proof is in Episode 4, Rosa hits Maria after her return from Atami where Eva was.
At a later scene, Rosa returns from another trip, gets mad at Maria more than ever.Maria says its the Black Witch in a crazed manner.Beatrice appears.
Note that EP 4 is the following:
Maria and Rosa on Rokkenjima are closer than ever.
Mariage Sorcerie is formed, where Sakutarou turns big when Rosa said she had plans to make a big one instead of a small one.
See it this way:
After the fight, Rosa and Maria made up and Rosa made the big one for her, Mariage Sorcerie was formed and Rosa accepted Maria and her delusions.
"The first clause is that witches accept another."

It even says that if Ange would have stayed within Mariage Sorcerie and learned Marias magic her and Eva would have had a better relationship.

That's why I say:
Mariage Sorcerie is a magical and almost abstract way of acceptance and love.
An Alliance that at first was Rosa accepting Maria with the latter having fixed the Relationship thus creating a bond of love, it gained a second member Ange who just like Maria also had a mother figure possessed by the Black Witch, yet Ange lost her belief in Magic and was excommunicated as she denied magic and Marias magic of happiness and being unable to fix her relationship with Eva.

If we think of Evatrice as the source of negative feelings caused by Eva Episode 3 potentially gains a different view.
Kyrie and Rudolf saw Evatrice - They came behind Eva solving it and acted like in Episode 7 trying to make the money their own and started by interrogating Hideyoshi who knew nothing.
Nanjo saw Evatrice - This is after Eva shot Jessica.All one needs to assume is that Nanjo believed Eva did it on purpose.
And as said, Rosa saw Evatrice because her hated Sister solved it and became head.
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Old 2012-12-13, 18:16   Link #31385
Wegenbarth
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Without love, it can't be seen.
Now I can see how this also fits for Rosatrice thanks to you Kiltias.
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Old 2012-12-13, 18:32   Link #31386
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
That's why I say:
Mariage Sorcerie is a magical and almost abstract way of acceptance and love.
An Alliance that at first was Rosa accepting Maria with the latter having fixed the Relationship thus creating a bond of love, it gained a second member Ange who just like Maria also had a mother figure possessed by the Black Witch, yet Ange lost her belief in Magic and was excommunicated as she denied magic and Marias magic of happiness and being unable to fix her relationship with Eva.

If we think of Evatrice as the source of negative feelings caused by Eva Episode 3 potentially gains a different view.
This is all a very nice separate theory, but how does it work in the greater scheme of things? You say that there is some kind of link between Rosa and Beatrice beyond everything that has already been discussed, but how does it help in the greater picture, especially considering that Rosa is removed from the gameboard fairly early except for EP2.

Considering Evatrice being exactly what the Black Witch concept is about, I find that difficult. Evatrice is for me only one possible solution that is heavily implied towards the reader for reasons that are uncovered in EP7 and 8, namely putting a lid on a box containing endless stories in the form of an obvious villain.
I agree with you when you say that Evatrice is more than Eva, but it is not only something that should be considered within the gameboard-narrative.

As I said, I fail to see what your idea contributes beyond EP3 and even there it appears incomplete as it fails to explain what then actually happened.
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Old 2012-12-13, 21:11   Link #31387
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Does KNM ever actually give a substantial reason for Ryukishi's attributed deception?

It's fun to think about other possibilities and all, but I think saying Shkanontrice is wrong is missing the point of the story a bit. I personally prefer to look at it as either Shkanontrice isn't the only solution, or is only part of our solution, I'm sure a lot of you think it's wrong to think of it as entirely false, since we get two whole later chapters setting it up.

Just my two cents.
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Old 2012-12-13, 21:55   Link #31388
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Originally Posted by Uberzaki View Post
Does KNM ever actually give a substantial reason for Ryukishi's attributed deception?

It's fun to think about other possibilities and all, but I think saying Shkanontrice is wrong is missing the point of the story a bit. I personally prefer to look at it as either Shkanontrice isn't the only solution, or is only part of our solution, I'm sure a lot of you think it's wrong to think of it as entirely false, since we get two whole later chapters setting it up.

Just my two cents.
He gives two things that I can remember off the top of my head. One I discussed earlier with the third story. The other one is how Ryukishi says that he wants to protect the people who reached the truth which is why he didn't reveal the culprit at the end. Him confirming Shkanon seems to contradict what he says earlier in the interview.

TBH I could except Shkanon as a lie but as far as it goes it fits all the puzzles the best. Well not the best but better than Rosatrice...

Going back to what Cronotrig said a few pages back, just because someone is suspicious doesn't mean they are the killer. Rosa is pretty suspicious based on the things that Kiltias brought up but the theory is still ultimately flawed.

So guys we should replace Rosatrice with Gohdatrice.

Episode 1: Gohda fakes his death with the help of Nanjo

Episode 2: Small bombs first twilight, kills Jessica and hides kanon's body second twilight, suggests to the other servants that Rosa is the killer and they should fake Nanjo and Kumasawa's death to fool her. After George is kicked out he kills them all. The Letter was in the room the whole time Battler was just too incompetent as a detective to notice it.

Episode 3: Gohda fakes his death, Gohda died but the Magical Chef didn't

Episode 4: He escapes the shed with the help on Nanjo. Kills everyone goes back into the shed with Maria, gives Maria the key and tells her to lock it and to go back inside to where there is a drink left for her and she will meet Beatrice if she drinks it. Maria goes back inside and drinks the poison left by Gohda and dies. Gohda suicides with a gun and string trick.

Gohda's motive is he was tired of all the servants messing with him with a stupid witch and leaving him out of there super secret things so he decided to make a murder mystery and he decided to make Battler the detective cause he heard from Shannon whining about Battler not coming back that he liked detective fiction so it made sense.

To get past the logic Error in EP6, Gohda fed Kanon a small bomb and he slipped out the window after Battler announced his location. Kanon saved Battler then hid in the closet. Gohda then activates the Small bombs kill Kanon.

GG
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Old 2012-12-13, 21:55   Link #31389
Kealym
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
I have right in front of me.Don't give me it's incorrect.
Of all the people in the dining hall, not one of them left the dining hall until 1:00 AM...!
During the short break at 1:00 AM, the first two to leave the dining hall were Rosa and Eva. Until Eva returned, everyone in the dining hall remained there.


Mind you, these times have to be approximate - Rosa can't have left the mansion at exactly 1:00am and ALSO run into Erika in the guesthouse at exactly 1:00am. But she definitely didn't leave the dining hall until way after the letter/knock incident had happened.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Manga.
Same one where Maria draws 6 people into the sand when the 9th Twilight was brought on the Beach by Battler..Natsuhi,Battler,Maria and Rosa are clearly visibly drawn by Maria.The other 2 remained unfinished yet shortly before its indicated Maria drew 2 tiny circles into someones face when the others had dots as eyes.
Followed by:
"Everyone dies noone survive" and a wave destroys the drawing at the same time that was said.
Just checked that out. I really need to read through the manga at some point. Even if they aren't important, it's cool how they communicate visually where the VN had pages and pages of text ... I mean, I glanced at the chapter where Erika tried to explain the knock/letter, and it's a WAY harsher scene in the manga, from both Cornelia being punished to Erika being humiliated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uberzaki View Post
Does KNM ever actually give a substantial reason for Ryukishi's attributed deception?

It's fun to think about other possibilities and all, but I think saying Shkanontrice is wrong is missing the point of the story a bit. I personally prefer to look at it as either Shkanontrice isn't the only solution, or is only part of our solution, I'm sure a lot of you think it's wrong to think of it as entirely false, since we get two whole later chapters setting it up.

Just my two cents.
Mmm, it's something like "Umineko is a story ALL ABOUT deceiving the readers.", and it fitting his idea that Shkanon is silly and ruins everything.

And yeah, almost everyone on this board pretty much accepts Shkanon as the intended solution, even if we don't exactly like it.
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Old 2012-12-14, 05:29   Link #31390
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The other one is how Ryukishi says that he wants to protect the people who reached the truth which is why he didn't reveal the culprit at the end. Him confirming Shkanon seems to contradict what he says earlier in the interview.
Well, this only applies if you assume that the Prime culprit and the gameboard culprit are the same person. And I'm not sure why so many people assume that. Considering that the interview was done just after EP8 came out, I'm pretty sure Ryukishi was talking about how he left everything ambiguous regarding Prime, rather than that he never wanted to reveal the truth of the gameboard.

That said, he hasn't actually ever said that Shannon and Kanon are the same person in any interview AFAIK. He's certainly confirmed Shannon culprit, but he seems to leave the multiple personalities thing alone from what I've seen. Of course, read between the lines etc, but I don't think he's ever flat out stated it.
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Old 2012-12-14, 08:06   Link #31391
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I just realized a (the?) solution to Erika's "18th human" line at the end of EP6. I'm surprised I hadn't thought of it earlier, because it fits perfectly with ShKanon Replacement Theory.

It's about the "th" in "18th". The game has had 17 people other than Erika, making her the 18th person. However, the game actually only has 16 people other than Erika, making the total, with Erika included, 17.
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Old 2012-12-14, 09:15   Link #31392
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Well, it's not that difficult a linguistic trick.

Neil Armstrong is the first man on the moon.
There are no men on the moon.


Both of these statements are after all true; Neil Armstrong didn't stay there.

There is still some questionableness to it though. Who is the 17th person "on Rokkenjima?" Are we counting characters or what? Because allegedly Kinzo is dead before the start of the games, and there have probably been more than 18 people total on Rokkenjima in all of history (the soldiers and Italians, other servants, visitors, etc.).
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Old 2012-12-14, 09:31   Link #31393
GabrieliosP
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Wasn't Rokkenjima only named Rokkenjima AFTER Kinzo bought it? That would invalidate the soldiers and italians. Then again, there were the workers who built the mansion too.
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:28   Link #31394
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
It really seems an inner monologue between chosing if doing something and just letting things as they are but, with the implication that doing something maybe will give Shannon's George's love but it'll also will cause lot of troubles.

The following parts are also interesting.

Shannon gets to be with George and be happy thanks to Beato but then Beato confesses she did it only on a whim and with the purpose to tear them apart.

If we consider Beato and Shannon are the same person it means more or less than Yasu longed for love (confirmed by Ep 7 in which she says it doesn't matter where it is as long as she's welcomed and loved) so she tried to have it with George because she had the chance to pursue it however she didn't really plan for a long term relation possibly also because she believed a long term relation would work as Kanon insists. In fact he too confesses he would like to pursue love but refuses to believe it oculd work.
So in other words, Yasu's main goal was simply "to go out with someone", not to find a future marriage partner. Not that she wasn't interested in having a deeper relationship, but she wasn't confident that anyone would want her, if they knew everything about her.

And in fact, in both cases, it was the other person who pushed for their relationship to become stronger. We never see Shannon pushing for any commitment beyond a few dates and hugging (George is very forceful when he proposes to her, and her immediate reaction is to try to back out of it by calling herself furniture) and Jessica is the one who pushes Kanon to "create a new self" and presumably go out with her (and Kanon successfully backs out of it with the furniture excuse). In both cases, Jessica and George are so serious that they initially ignore the furniture excuse, with Jessica getting emotional and George sort of brushing it aside.

Spoiler for Sidenote: translation error correction: please read:
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Old 2012-12-14, 14:36   Link #31395
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It would really be nice if you could update the patch some time to include these improved translations. Especially the ones regarding the wording of reds, like the 'gunshot wounds that became fatal' thing.
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Old 2012-12-14, 16:30   Link #31396
Valkama
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My gut reaction to the 18th person problem is that Kinzo is one of the people who was on the island but is no longer there. However if we consider 18th as being the 18th person to arrive since the games start, the boat captain was on the island at the start but then left. However this is probably not what Ryukishi intended but it's definitely a solution.
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Old 2012-12-14, 17:00   Link #31397
Renall
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My gut reaction to the 18th person problem is that Kinzo is one of the people who was on the island but is no longer there. However if we consider 18th as being the 18th person to arrive since the games start, the boat captain was on the island at the start but then left. However this is probably not what Ryukishi intended but it's definitely a solution.
Did he ever leave the boat? If you're on a boat in the water at a dock on the island are you in fact a visitor on Rokkenjima?

Stupid Beatrice and her vague definitions and flighty reds like "on Rokkenjima."
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Old 2012-12-14, 18:08   Link #31398
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I think it's pretty reasonable to assume "18th human on Rokkenjima" means the "18th human participating in the game". An interpretation of the statement to mean the "18th human on Rokkenjima ever" is clearly quite absurd, not to mention demonstrably false. The statement can't even include one more person, like Kinzo or Kawabata, or the number would be different.
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Old 2012-12-14, 18:52   Link #31399
Renall
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I think it's pretty reasonable to assume "18th human on Rokkenjima" means the "18th human participating in the game". An interpretation of the statement to mean the "18th human on Rokkenjima ever" is clearly quite absurd, not to mention demonstrably false. The statement can't even include one more person, like Kinzo or Kawabata, or the number would be different.
But Kinzo never participates in the game as a human.
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Old 2012-12-14, 20:12   Link #31400
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But Kinzo never participates in the game as a human.
Did you think I was suggesting that he does? I wasn't.
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