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Old 2012-12-11, 15:31   Link #2221
Haak
Forever Alone...
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
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It wasn't that they weren't punished. Like I said, I felt they were being given more respect than they deserved. The Troupe may be charismatic and clever and may even have some virtues but at the end of the day they're still horrible people. Shouldn't that be the final point, rather than the fact that they have some virtues?

But yeah the moral dissonance has been a noticeable pain for me throughout the show. I only mention it now because it's just a little too egregious to brush aside now. As you've pointed out, the show has shown a blind eye to a lot of things to begin with but it should be noted that the show has also been quick to emphasis certain virtues so I do find that it's playing up the moral compass point a bit, and i honestly have to wonder what direction it's pointing at (and don't say East...).
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Old 2012-12-11, 15:48   Link #2222
Clarste
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"There are no saints. Only bastards and the people who love them."
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Old 2012-12-11, 15:53   Link #2223
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by garbage View Post
^ I think it would be wrong to generalize the Genei Ryoudan as this or that by the very fact that they are more than once shown ready to fight ( and kill each other ) due to differences in opinion. Most notably with regards to the saving the boss. True they do have values but it seems it's basically different for each and every member.

One thing I notice is though is that they take Killing people and stealing seriously, it's business for them. is it because they're the front liners and earners for their home/village/country? it was depicted as a forgotten , garbage disposable, discarded poor "country" where possibly death is cheap. we wouldn't know yet, but somehow feels like it. So this of course has to come in on how the members formed their values especially with regards to killing AND valuing their "family".
I don't remember if it was mentioned in the anime, but one of the reasons even the mafia don't mess with them (or at least one of the stories told about them) is that, when one of denizens of Meteor City was murdered by cops from outside, they retaliated with several (I think more than ten) suicide bombers. So, yeah, death is definitely cheap, and you don't want to step on their toes.
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Old 2012-12-11, 16:43   Link #2224
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I don't remember if it was mentioned in the anime, but one of the reasons even the mafia don't mess with them (or at least one of the stories told about them) is that, when one of denizens of Meteor City was murdered by cops from outside, they retaliated with several (I think more than ten) suicide bombers. So, yeah, death is definitely cheap, and you don't want to step on their toes.
No, it's much worse. One of them was wrongfully imprisoned for 2 years, and they sent 30+ suicide bombers to kill every member of the jury and prosecution. "We accept everything, so don't take anything back."

They're pretty crazy.
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Old 2012-12-11, 19:20   Link #2225
kitten320
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Originally Posted by AnimeFan188 View Post
So, the spiders lost Paku & Uvo, instead of half their number. I guess that means
those fortunes aren't absolute.
They stop being absolute the moment you know them because you have a chance to change them.

That's why she was famous.

Back during Phantom attach some rich guys read fortune before going to auction to ensure that they'll be safe. If no, they would remain where they were.
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Old 2012-12-12, 17:00   Link #2226
amaterasu4
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I still don't get why does this arc end so abruptly. Kurapica never decided he will stop his revenge. The Spider suddenly decides not to target Kurapica afraid that his ghost would continue his objective.

However, didn't Kurapica already kill a Spider before and his ghost bothered nobody? I wonder what was going on with Togashi considering
Spoiler for manga spoiler:


Gon actually pulled some points when talking with the Spider guys "How can you kill so much without caring for the victims" and my favorite "If you care so much for your late friend why don't you think a little about the others' lives?" Well, not exactly what he said but you get the idea.
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Old 2012-12-12, 17:11   Link #2227
Clarste
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Originally Posted by amaterasu4 View Post
I still don't get why does this arc end so abruptly. Kurapica never decided he will stop his revenge. The Spider suddenly decides not to target Kurapica afraid that his ghost would continue his objective. However, didn't Kurapica already kill a Spider before and his ghost bothered nobody? I wonder what was going on with Togashi considering
Spoiler for manga spoiler:
Kurapica decided to not put his new friends in danger by giving up on the pursuit, at least for now. He also realized that his plan to "crush the leader" wouldn't have worked in the first place, so he needs to come up with a completely new method to elminnate the Spider. He has to kill them all at once, and that's a lot harder. Overall, there no reason for him to pursue them right now, and earlier in the arc Gon reminded him that his other goal of retrieving the eyes (to give them a proper burial, presumably) is just as important and he can focus on that while he comes up with a better plan for the Spiders.

From the Spider's perspective... you seem to have completely missed the point of what they said about the nen of a dead person. It's not about "ghosts" attacking people. Ghosts aren't a thing in this setting, or if they are they're just as unknowable as they are in real life. That'd be a spiritual question for a priest, rather than a practical one for a killer. Whatever the case, no one in the series is particularly concerned about ghosts. They're concerned about nen. Nen is powered by conviction. This is a point that's been hammered in over and over again.

So what do you think happens to someone's nen when they give a dying curse? To die for one final grudge is the strongest conviction a person can have. Rather than weakening the grip of his nen, killing Kurapica would make his hate stronger than ever. The blade pointed at Chrollo's heart would go from a temporary inconvenience they need a specialist to remove to an unbreakable curse from a dead man. In the worst case scenario, it may gain a strong enough aura to kill him merely from its presence (like what Wing warned Gon and Killua about before they learned Ten). Having an extremely hostile aura sitting inside your body without any protection from Ten is suicidal.

It's all fairly logical and fits within the rules that have already been established.
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Old 2012-12-12, 22:02   Link #2228
stunt296
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I don't want any spoilers. I haven't watched the original anime or read the manga. All I want to know is if the Phantom Arc will continue later on? It doesn't seem right to end it like this :/
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Old 2012-12-12, 22:24   Link #2229
Clarste
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Originally Posted by stunt296 View Post
I don't want any spoilers. I haven't watched the original anime or read the manga. All I want to know is if the Phantom Arc will continue later on? It doesn't seem right to end it like this :/
I don't see how it's even theoretically possible to answer this without a spoiler, but it's sort of a minor one. Anyway, the Spiders don't drop off the face of the Earth after this episode.
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Old 2012-12-12, 22:33   Link #2230
stunt296
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
I don't see how it's even theoretically possible to answer this without a spoiler, but it's sort of a minor one. Anyway, the Spiders don't drop off the face of the Earth after this episode.
It is kind of misleading. I guess what I meant was I don't want any other spoilers other than knowing if the Phantom Arc continues later on. Maybe I should just wait and see what happens lol.
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Old 2012-12-13, 00:10   Link #2231
Vicious108
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Do people seriously believe this arc can be viewed as an intended conclusion to the Kurapika vs Phantom Troupe blood feud?

I mean, it doesn't get much more clear that it isn't than this:

Spoiler:


And what would be the point of introducing the possibility of Chrollo having his Nen restriction erased if they didn't plan to do more with the Spiders? Obviously they still have a role to play in the story. It'd be such a waste to introduce, develop and establish such a compelling villainous organization only to write them off after a single story arc (where they only lost two members, three if you count Hisoka leaving).
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Old 2012-12-13, 02:33   Link #2232
Haak
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It obviously isn't the end, but I did feel a bit of a mood dissonance here in that the episode is trying to establish some sort of end when there shouldn't be. To be honest whilst Gon might have Kurapika's best interests at heart i wonder if what he did was really the right thing. Kurapika was going to be the Spider's target ever since he first captured Uvo and I find it very hard to believe that even after all this, the Troupe is just going to let Kurapika get away it. They're definitely going to try and find a a way for their leader to get his Nen back and when they do Kurapika is in huge trouble. Unless Kurapika wants to die, he no longer has any choice but to see them all dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
"There are no saints. Only bastards and the people who love them."
I'm not really expecting saints, but some moral consistency would be nice. I mean if the story is going to go out of it's way to show how some characters have virtues, sometimes it will all fall flat on it's face if it doesn't address all the other issues. At least for me it does.
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Old 2012-12-13, 02:44   Link #2233
Reckoner
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I think the beauty of Hunter x Hunter is its ability to create that sort of moral dissonance. That despite all the terrible things the Spider have done, it managed to create an emotionally effectual scene of Paku's sacrifice. A certain admiration has to be there for the way she put her group before herself.

It is not like villains have to be people who always do evil things in 100% of scenarios. The spider wouldn't maintain itself as a group if they weren't held together by something more than just "hahaha I AM EVIL!!!" It also doesn't mean they are not supposed to be held accountable to their heinous actions. All it means is that the spider is more complex and nuanced than your typical scooby doo villain.

Similarly, you could see that our so called protagonists are not the most chivalrous bunch around either. Killua has killed several people. Kurapika has killed someone in his search for vengeance. Gon turns a blind eye to all the carnage that is around him and has displayed a scary side of him in the heaven's arena arc. They are not 100% pure white knights either.

Hunter x Hunter characters in general are colored with shades of grey instead of just pure black and white. It's why the cast is often so fascinating and compelling.
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Old 2012-12-13, 05:50   Link #2234
Dengar
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Ok ok first of all I like to point out, that "the end of this arc" does not mean "the end of the troupe, we never see them again".

This arc established the spiders and how they work, showed them doing some freaky shit while stealing the underground auction's items, then worked towards a climax where Chrollo's nen gets disabled and becomes unable to contact his troupe members, Kurapica's friends are freed, and the spider is left in a "what do we do next?" state. Introduction, buildup, climax, all the parts of an arc are there.

All the things from a typical story arc in an ongoing series are here too: Story hooks for a later arc. The spiders aren't done for, we learn of the existence of exorcists, which immediately gives us the possibility of Chrollo making a return later. We also learn that killing Kurapica now could possibly be bad for Chrollo, so their priority is to have Chrollo's judgment chain removed. This allows Kurapica his much needed time to rest. Does this mean Kurapica's quest is over now? Of course not. But it DOES allow the story to move on to things that are more important at this point in time: Greed Island.
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Old 2012-12-13, 11:35   Link #2235
amaterasu4
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Poor Hisoka. His fun was ruined by Kurapica. However, I don't get why he sold his "comrades" if he knew Kurapica would mess with Chrollo or even kill him. Well, now that Chrollo is powerless he will focus again on Gon...



Still, Kurapica is never touched again as far as I know
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Old 2012-12-13, 14:16   Link #2236
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I think the beauty of Hunter x Hunter is its ability to create that sort of moral dissonance. That despite all the terrible things the Spider have done, it managed to create an emotionally effectual scene of Paku's sacrifice. A certain admiration has to be there for the way she put her group before herself.

It is not like villains have to be people who always do evil things in 100% of scenarios. The spider wouldn't maintain itself as a group if they weren't held together by something more than just "hahaha I AM EVIL!!!" It also doesn't mean they are not supposed to be held accountable to their heinous actions. All it means is that the spider is more complex and nuanced than your typical scooby doo villain.

Similarly, you could see that our so called protagonists are not the most chivalrous bunch around either. Killua has killed several people. Kurapika has killed someone in his search for vengeance. Gon turns a blind eye to all the carnage that is around him and has displayed a scary side of him in the heaven's arena arc. They are not 100% pure white knights either.

Hunter x Hunter characters in general are colored with shades of grey instead of just pure black and white. It's why the cast is often so fascinating and compelling.
It's not like I don't appreciate that. I still do. It's just that there are times when I think the story is saying "Yeah these guys lack a lot of morals, but they have certain virtues and that's what matters". Sometimes the perspective just seems a bit off to me. Maybe it still works for some and you did say you still felt sympathetic to Paku's death, but I just found it a little irksome. On a certain level, I could appreciate the cleverness and and ambition behind it but I couldn't appreciate it.

On a separate note, whilst Hunter x Hunter has made great use of characters that lack morals, I'd also like to start seeing more grey characters like Kurapika who are grey because of their morals, not the lack of it.
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Old 2012-12-13, 17:04   Link #2237
Dengar
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I for one don't feel sympathy for the troupe. I do think they are interesting and amusing to watch, however.
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Old 2012-12-13, 18:19   Link #2238
TooPurePureBoy
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Why can't it be more nuanced ? Some of the spiders are likeable. Some of them are not. Feitan is pretty much bad news but that doesn't mean characters like Machi or Paku or even Franklin can't have likeable sides to them. That doesn't remove the penance they owe for their actions and I don't see where the author tries to make it so.

I think the toned down nature of Phinks and Fietan meeting Gon and Killua at the auction isn't an attempt for the author to make them seem acceptable as people, it's just that they (even being the pieces of shit that they are) couldn't deny the strong feelings Paku left them.

I'm sure it's only temporary for them.

I mean Hisoka is a slimy pedo masochist but even he has a pretty solid fanbase.
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Old 2012-12-13, 18:21   Link #2239
kitten320
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Hisoka has a massive fanbase
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Old 2012-12-13, 19:21   Link #2240
amaterasu4
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In the Spider my favorite was Nobunaga because of his easygoing personality and how he thinks of his comrades. Still, half of my respect disappeared when he murdered Squala for no reason. That whole scene bothered me because Pacu had already read his mind and knew about Kurapica's identity. She already understood Squala's personality and said something to piss him off leading to Nobunaga killing him saying "I told you not to move." Poor Squala.

Ah, about Hisoka his popularity is really huge. He may be a murderer, but he only picks enemies willing to kill him or messing with his prey (Gon). Is he a pedo? MAYBE. He sometimes appears to also hit on that pink or blue haired girl from the Troupe (can't remember so many names!) but---You see I can't defend that guy. It's like defending Vegeta although I admit Hisoka is likable unlike that Dragon Ball douche.
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