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Old 2006-01-14, 19:24   Link #401
cajunman380
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//Edit: About GSD "failure " I don't think I can add a lot . If it's a financial succes it's //sucks as a show and it's a texbook example of what not to do with a good story .



well all i can say is that you speak the truth but i dont think you can really call it a financial success, sure it sold dvds and soundtracks, but as i mentioned previously. if you compare it to the original in terms of overall sales, the two wouldnt even match up. i mean i find it hard for bandai to be milking off this series given all the negativity surrounding it ( i dont expect to see a destiny version of never ending tommorow) which is why they immediately opted for a thrid series, to get back all that potential revenue that was lost in this one(if they did the story right they could have been milking this sries for 5 years) and also because this series happen to meet bandais expected sales quota. ideally it should have exceeded it past or closely matching seeds. but given what happened..... my two cents.
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Old 2006-01-14, 22:05   Link #402
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
What goes on inside of a person's mind isn't as complex as his physical actions? <SNIP>
Also, Rau was very complicated...<SNIP>
Cerridwen, you seem to have a very strange definition of complicated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Really, these questions you're throwing back at me are very simple in the CE sense. It's either Lacus or go broke. That's just that.
By this same logic, you can boil most the stories in the world to "Hero defeats Villain". This kind of minimalism is rather nonsensical and impotent without supporting reasoning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Oh take away Fllay's bitchy side, exchange manipulative nature into GODDESS nature, make her a Mary Sue (I think they also reversed Fllay's hotness to Lacus'...um...so so-ness)...and voila! You have Lacus!
I was being sarcastic. Lacus simply has no character at all. She's just static.
Pshaw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kodachrome
I know you hate my one line replies like that, but seriously... off the top of my head, the entire series is the best short answer I can give you.
You know, you could give a few examples instead. Or at least put some paragraph breaks in there. Generally, the use of flippant remarks is a sign indicating a lack of critical thinking faculties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kodachrome
It starts off as very blatant: Lacus, the accepter of all, and Fllay, a tool of discrimination reflecting her fathers bias with the Earth Alliance. That scene contrasts them VERY well AND makes Lacus look like the "Good guy" because she isbeing so PEACEFUL AND HAPPY AND CUTE and Fllay is being SO MEAN AND CRUEL AND HISSY about her being a Coordinator.
You're overlooking the fact that the primary trait displayed by both of them at the beginning is naivete. They're both kids, and they are presented as such. Also, only the unobservant would interpret Fllay's attitude simply as "mean" or "cruel", at least early on. Oh well, it was a good try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kodachrome
Then, the contrast gradually grows with a few peaks in the middle, until the very last episode when Fllay dies and only Kira notices and Lacus lives with her faction on top with a lot of people noticing her and her words. In a way, Fllay is this kind of forgotten person. This is characterized by her fathers death - people who say, "You were George Allster's daughter?" labeling her as that, and her mental deterioration from the manipulation of Kira to Klueze turning the manipulation and convinced her everyone thought she was dead (she thought she was forgotten to the people who she cared about thinking she was alive) as well as Kira only remembering her when he sees her lipstick on the floor (her existance is summarized by a thing of lipstick and not her herself). While Lacus remains the ever loud (loud as in... you know she's there...) evidence of power and strength, who has her control much firmer than Fllay.
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. This entire passage doesn't seem to have any coherent arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kodachrome
A big part where they are foils, and where you see them contrast, is how Lacus is able to control so much more fluidly than Fllay. Or more specifically, their manipulation of Kira. Kira makes them the same promise - I will carry your thoughts onto the battle field. And he does, and Lacus ultimately wins there. Lacus's victory of the manipulation of Kira contrasts Fllay's not-victory of the manipulation of Kira. Fllay might've "won" for a while, but Fllay lost her grip when she thought Kira was pitying her in the episode where he was trying to avoid asking his parents in ORB why they made him a Coordinator. He saw through her at that moment, got a little freaked out, and they parted ways. You could argue that Lacus was not manipulating Kira, but when you consider she also handed him a Gundam, I'd say you have a weak argument against the thought of her trying to manipulate something. It's like it's your birthday and you say, "Well, I MIGHT want this or that, but you know..." I mean, come on, how more obvious and not-vague can you be? She was ultimately manipulating Kira back into kind of a fighting spirit, to go rescue his friends, but at teh same time, she was instigating something.
I could say that While Fllay tried to manipulate Kira, that's not the essence of her character. Or I could go on about how Lacus didn't really manipulate Kira. And I could show how tenuous this connection is, but none of this is necessary.

The purpose of a character foil is to emphasize a character trait through contrast. Thus, it is essential that the primary character still exhibits (or will exhibit in the near future) the trait being contrasted. However, after Kira "died", Fllay changed. In fact, she changed so much that she no longer bore the trait of "manipulative". So how can Lacus help to emphasize a trait that the primary character no longer has?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kodachrome
By giving Kira Freedom, she kind of instigated the end of the war. Fllay does too contribute to the instigation of the end of the war when she very willingly (and also very naive...) accepts the disk from Klueze and goes to deliver it to Azrael, thinking it would end the war. Obviously it doesn't: It just incites more flames and the firing of GENESIS, and that is another excellent point where they contrast. Fllay's attempt/effort to the end of the war lead to more destruction, while Lacus's attempt/effort to end it lead to the actual end.
kodachrome, you would have been more successful if you said "Fllay and Lacus are both girls." Seriously, you're just grasping at straws here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kodachrome
Notably, people who don't like Fllay, Meer, and Shinn, often name things things that make them realistic as things they dislike about those characters.
You may be surprised. People may not like these characters because they dislike and can recognize that type of person in real life. Simply put, realistic != likable.

Your last passage doesn't address the issue of foils at all. To summarize, if you want to compare and contrast Lacus and Fllay, feel free to do so. It's a worthy endeavour, and you might learn some useful insights. If you want to claim that they are character foils, then you're going to need some better supporting logic.
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Old 2006-01-14, 22:08   Link #403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cajunman380
well all i can say is that you speak the truth but i dont think you can really call it a financial success, sure it sold dvds and soundtracks, but as i mentioned previously. if you compare it to the original in terms of overall sales, the two wouldnt even match up.
If I recall correctly, Seed was Gundam's biggest financial success since the mid-'80s. Therefore, just because Destiny might not match it is hardly a great cause for concern. Do you have any hard data on how well Destiny is performing compared to Turn A, or G Gundam, or Gundam Wing?
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Old 2006-01-14, 23:24   Link #404
Eidolon Sniper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
Cerridwen, you seem to have a very strange definition of complicated.
Well, if you think Lacus is complicated...

Quote:
By this same logic, you can boil most the stories in the world to "Hero defeats Villain". This kind of minimalism is rather nonsensical and impotent without supporting reasoning.
Well, a world without Lacus' reason is a world of utter evilness. Therefore, in order to rid this world of evilness, you must have the GODDESS shine her radiant and revivifying dust for them all so that they could all follow her innate wisdom and benevolence towards a brighter tomorrow.



Seriously, this was GSD in a nutshell.

Quote:
Pshaw.
Pshaw for acceptance or pshaw for ?

Quote:
You know, you could give a few examples instead. Or at least put some paragraph breaks in there. Generally, the use of flippant remarks is a sign indicating a lack of critical thinking faculties.
Oh that is just harsh.

Just because a person is saying something in a different manner doesn't mean that he's incapable of thinking critically...

Quote:
You're overlooking the fact that the primary trait displayed by both of them at the beginning is naivete. They're both kids, and they are presented as such. Also, only the unobservant would interpret Fllay's attitude simply as "mean" or "cruel", at least early on. Oh well, it was a good try.
Lacus naive? rofl, that is just about the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

Anyway, seriously...

Lacus is the Mary Sue who could do no wrong and Fllay was the girl who did everything "wrong". As for addressing the fans who lambast Fllay for being manipulative, bitch, etc., etc...some of the fans who hate Fllay actually think this way, so you also call them unobservant? Expect more fireworks about this statement soon...

Quote:
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. This entire passage doesn't seem to have any coherent arguments.
It just means Fllay >>>>>>>>>>>> Lacus.

Fllay didn't really make a very huge impact on people until she left. That, I think, is just about the only thing that makes her >>>>>>>>>>>> Lacus any given day (well...she's beautiful and she has lots of unusual charisma in her which is quite believable for some of the male fans on this board so this could also count as a point why she is >>>>>> Lacus), in spite of all those Lacus dust spiels, she would just only be remembered as Lacus Clyne, the name, the face, the voice, while Fllay Allster will always be remembered as Fllay Allster, not just because of the lipstick, but of who she was at the end.

Quote:
I could say that While Fllay tried to manipulate Kira, that's not the essence of her character. Or I could go on about how Lacus didn't really manipulate Kira. And I could show how tenuous this connection is, but none of this is necessary.
One word and Kira's hooked. How is that not manipulative?

Quote:
The purpose of a character foil is to emphasize a character trait through contrast. Thus, it is essential that the primary character still exhibits (or will exhibit in the near future) the trait being contrasted. However, after Kira "died", Fllay changed. In fact, she changed so much that she no longer bore the trait of "manipulative". So how can Lacus help to emphasize a trait that the primary character no longer has?
Actually, she was only being evilly manipulative from the start of the Desert Arc until the trip to Orb. After that, she was not manipulative anymore.

Lacus was still emphasizing traits Fllay had, that is being unselfish, being open to all the things that were going on around them, and being very forgiving about it in the end (I am pertaining to Lacus here). Fllay started off by being selfish, being closed minded on all things because of her upbringing, and wasn't very forgiving; but she changed after the series, to which she understood more about the ugly thing called war, started thinking of others and not just herself, and forgave Kira for being a Coordinator, that is, she actually loved him in the end for being Kira and not because of her selfish little ways of trying to get back at the Coordinators. She also apologized for being so wrong and so hurtful to others, especially Kira. Fllay was more believable in a sense that she actually changed throughout the series in a very realistic way, not so like Lacus who remained like that until the end of GSD.

Quote:
kodachrome, you would have been more successful if you said "Fllay and Lacus are both girls." Seriously, you're just grasping at straws here.
There are girls out there who are like Fllay and Lacus. That is why there are cliques, and who's most popular and who's not, etc., etc. I've had my share of reading teenage novels, I've been through a Catholic highschool, so it's not really surprising that there are girls who people love to hate and people who love to admire.

Quote:
You may be surprised. People may not like these characters because they dislike and can recognize that type of person in real life. Simply put, realistic != likable.
But they're real enough to survive in the real world, if they would be able to. Lacus, in her unrealistic sense of being the GODDESS, would probably find it very hard to live in a world where every time she tries to make a Lacus dust spiel, she just gets back.

Quote:
Your last passage doesn't address the issue of foils at all. To summarize, if you want to compare and contrast Lacus and Fllay, feel free to do so. It's a worthy endeavour, and you might learn some useful insights. If you want to claim that they are character foils, then you're going to need some better supporting logic.
Lacus = foil of Fllay

Shinn = foil of Kira

Shinn and Fllay = Kira and Lacus = foils of each other and what have you

Shinn + Fllay

Put them together and what have you got? Mind boggling hotness.

Seriously...

The reason why they are foils could be aptly seen in the entire series of GS and GSD. Fllay was everything Lacus wasn't. Shinn was everything Kira wasn't.

It's not that hard to understand, right?
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Old 2006-01-14, 23:50   Link #405
Schneizel
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Quote:
You may be surprised. People may not like these characters because they dislike and can recognize that type of person in real life. Simply put, realistic != likable.
I was never trying to "argue" that, I was pointing out that SEED is not quite as kind to more realistic characters.

The best place to point out how two characters are foils is where they contrast because their intended to bring out different sides of each other. If you don't think that makes them foils, then whatever... you asked me to explain and I did and stated places where they contrasted (However your reasoning for them not being foils makes other known literature foils non-foils).

Some of your comments make me think you weren't quite entirely sure of what I was saying.... For clarification:
Quote:
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. This entire passage doesn't seem to have any coherent arguments.
I wasn't trying to argue anything there. I was pointing out how Fllay became "forgotten" in a sense with examples from the series while Lacus could only shine. Actually, I was not trying to argue a damn thing except point out scenes in the series where they contrasted. If you think I came off as an argument, then "SRY PLZ" but that wasn't the intention.

Quote:
You're overlooking the fact that the primary trait displayed by both of them at the beginning is naivete. They're both kids, and they are presented as such. Also, only the unobservant would interpret Fllay's attitude simply as "mean" or "cruel", at least early on. Oh well, it was a good try.
I never overlooked it... "a tool of discrimination reflecting her fathers bias with the Earth Alliance." It is saying she is naive and influenced easily by other opinions because she doesn't know any better. Lacus tries to go Politically Correct on her explaining the difference between ZAFT and PLANT, hence why they contrast there. (And "unobservant" describes like a lot of SEED "fans"). She was obviously intended to look mean/cruel/whatever: All humans can have a fierce anger and hatred for one another. Fllay uses and utilizes this anger and allows it to lead her. Lacus does not. That is a huge contrast in their emotions.

Quote:
kodachrome, you would have been more successful if you said "Fllay and Lacus are both girls." Seriously, you're just grasping at straws here.
And you are grasping at belittlement as your only way to counter me?

Quote:
I could say that While Fllay tried to manipulate Kira, that's not the essence of her character. Or I could go on about how Lacus didn't really manipulate Kira. And I could show how tenuous this connection is, but none of this is necessary.

The purpose of a character foil is to emphasize a character trait through contrast. Thus, it is essential that the primary character still exhibits (or will exhibit in the near future) the trait being contrasted. However, after Kira "died", Fllay changed. In fact, she changed so much that she no longer bore the trait of "manipulative". So how can Lacus help to emphasize a trait that the primary character no longer has?
Edited-Expanded:

So if Fllay quit being manipulative and selfish, why did she try to get back with Sai by telling him she never loved Kira and try kill Dearka to gain Miriallia's approval as well as prove just how much she "hates" Coordinators despite just being in a relationship with one? It just shows how she is still so dependent she is - now that Kira is not around, who will pay attention to her? If anything, after Kira "dies" she loses her "effectiveness". What's shown in PLANT, is how Lacus provides a sense of renewal in Kira, and clears the clouds of his mind and directs him away from the thought of death (which Fllay wanted him to steer towards - KILL EVERYONE ZOMGG) and points out that there are many he must've saved. Lacus leads him towards the role of a savior, while Fllay led him towards the role of a killer. Lacus's influence of the savior-type image contrasts their ideal images and thoughts of Kira, and generally shows that Fllay has a very twisted vision of mankind after her father dies, believing only in the bad of people (this is also displayed when she tries to tell Miriallia that Miriallia is like her. Miriallia is shocked she could be comparable to someone like Fllay, and ends her vendetta), while Lacus, in quite heavy contrast, tries to show the good of the situation Kira has found himself in about the lives he has saved by fighting, as well as pushes him towards the end of the war, while Fllay (until the manipulation tables get turned on her) wants battles to continue.

Although she kind of lost that before he died too.

Perhaps "fighting spirit" is a better term...

Anyway, there is no point in listing anything else or going into a proper argument with you because you're already very, very set that I am an idiot who can't read, can't think, and who doesn't know what a foil is, and that they are not foils.

Last edited by Schneizel; 2006-01-15 at 00:07.
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Old 2006-01-15, 00:34   Link #406
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Seriously, this was GSD in a nutshell.
And so is "Hero defeats Villain". This kind of minimalism is pretty meaningless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Pshaw for acceptance or pshaw for ?
Pshaw, interjection. -- used to express irritation, disapproval, contempt, or disbelief

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Oh that is just harsh.

Just because a person is saying something in a different manner doesn't mean that he's incapable of thinking critically...
Perhaps my comment was a bit harsh. However, it is essentially correct. Lest you think that it was a personal attack on kodachrome, it was actually my overall impression of how flippant remarks are used on this forum. There's only three reasons for using flippant remarks: 1. You are replying to a post that merits no further discussion; 2. You are being a jerk to get a rise out of someone else; 3. You have nothing more to contribute. All of these cases should be used sparingly, if at all. Therefore, anyone using flippant remarks a great deal of the time is either purposefully not following proper etiquette, or not thinking matters through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Lacus naive? rofl, that is just about the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
While I don't think that Lacus is naive now, that's the way she was initially presented. In order to properly use a character foil, you sort of have to be pretty obvious about the traits shown. Since naivete was the primary trait shown, then it stands to reason that either that was the feature they wanted to make a foil for, or there's no character foil here to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
As for addressing the fans who lambast Fllay for being manipulative, bitch, etc., etc...some of the fans who hate Fllay actually think this way, so you also call them unobservant? Expect more fireworks about this statement soon...
Well, I calls them as I sees them. There was an awful lot of stuff going on inside Fllay's head, which leads to an awful lot of reasons for doing what she did. To simply reduce all of that to either "meaness" or "cruelty" is a bit on the absurd side. Anyone espousing this idea is thus either being malicious or unobservant. By the way this would be the same kind of cavalier use of minimalism that I accused you of earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Actually, she was only being evilly manipulative from the start of the Desert Arc until the trip to Orb. After that, she was not manipulative anymore. Lacus was still emphasizing traits Fllay had, that is being unselfish, being open to all the things that were going on around them, and being very forgiving about it in the end (I am pertaining to Lacus here). <SNIP>
Well that's the thing. Fllay herself was moving in the very same direction. Once she got her shock to her system, she actually tried to become more open and so forth. This really argues against the idea of a character foil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
The reason why they are foils could be aptly seen in the entire series of GS and GSD. Fllay was everything Lacus wasn't. Shinn was everything Kira wasn't.
It's not that hard to understand, right?
Actually there's a bit more to being a character foil than just being different. After all, we would hardly call Fllay and Dulindal character foils, would we? To be truly effective, this literary device pretty much has to use characters who have similar roles, and use contrasts to emphasize their respective traits. Thus, it can be argued that Shinn and Kira are foils or that Kira and Athrun are. It's a much bigger stretch to attribute it to Lacus and Fllay.
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Old 2006-01-15, 01:24   Link #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kodachrome
She was obviously intended to look mean/cruel/whatever: All humans can have a fierce anger and hatred for one another. Fllay uses and utilizes this anger and allows it to lead her.
Well, Fllay is a lot more complex than you suggest. The creators obviously wanted to project that complexity as well. She tries to hurt Kira, but who does she actually end up hurting? She says that she hates Coordinators, but what does she do when she actually meets them? For every action Fllay does, there's three different things going on. First, how she wants others to perceive her action; second, what she thinks she is accomplishing; third, what the effect is on Fllay herself. These disparate elements constantly tear away at her until her self-induced illusions fall away. There is a heck of a lot more going on than a mere representation of "anger and hatred for one another". However, you are quite right in saying that Fllay lets her anger lead her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kodachrome
And you are grasping at belittlement as your only way to counter me?
Not at all; I was merely try to express how tenuous your argument was. Since you seem to want more details, I'll provide them.

kodachrome, you are quite right that both Fllay and Lacus tried to end the war. However, this is also true for Azrael. So is he the foil for - Lacus or Fllay? How about Kira? Or anybody else who wanted the same thing. Your use of this as an example of a foil simply doesn't work; it looks more like you're just trying to list things that vaguely seem to fit the definition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kodachrome
So if Fllay quit being manipulative and selfish, why did she try to get back with Sai by telling him she never loved Kira and try kill Dearka to gain Miriallia's approval as well as prove just how much she "hates" Coordinators despite just being in a relationship with one? It just shows how she is still so dependent she is - now that Kira is not around, who will pay attention to her? If anything, after Kira "dies" she loses her "effectiveness.
I cannot agree with your analysis. The reason is that Fllay thought that she was still in love with Sai. She simply had to cling onto this belief in order to convince herself that she had fallen in love with Kira. With Kira gone, she had to turn back to what she thought was her "source of comfort". What Kira's "death" accomplished was to force Fllay to confront her own illusions - you may consider this a weakening of her character, but I tend to interpret it as a growing pain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kodachrome
...while Fllay (until the manipulation tables get turned on her) wants battles to continue.

Although she kind of lost that before he died too.
I've always interpreted that as Fllay convincing herself that that was what she really wanted. I don't think that it's her nature at all. She was simply too innocent to understand the ramifications of what was going on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kodachrome
Anyway, there is no point in listing anything else or going into a proper argument with you because you're already very, very set that I am an idiot who can't read, can't think, and who doesn't know what a foil is, and that they are not foils.
That's a bit of a shame, because if you drop some of the flippant comments and get some more logic under your belt, I think that discussing things with you will be quite interesting. Even respected literary scholars can have heated differences of opinions with each other, so I don't see why we have to behave differently.

If my mannerisms offend you, then I apologize. I'm sort of that way with everyone, so you shouldn't take things too personally.
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Old 2006-01-15, 04:37   Link #408
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Watched SEED once again out of curiosity. Could have rewatched Turn A instead..
Anyway after watching SEED.. Destiny just isn't good story wise because

a) no well defined bad guy (as in the bad guy who will pilot a GUndam and do battle with the hero)... First supposedly EA was bad.. ANd Zaft good which means Shinn the hero and whoever they throw at him is the bad guy.

Then half way through it flipped 180 degreess and Shinn became bad guy yet he doesn't have the bad bad guy look or personality.. SO the show lost focus there.

b) No good supporting characters... Seed had excellent Dearka and Yzak for coordinators while Murrue and Mwu for the Kira and co team.

They supported the main characters...

c) Well defined good and bad side... Which is OK if you're story is action driven. In destiny it became bogged down with philosophy, politics, and the idea no one is bad nor good despite the fact the show became so action drive. It worked with the slower UC series because they were more story driven which required quite a lot of character development.

d) In any case, I find the three misfit pilots from EA ? Blue Cosmos more entertainign and fun to watch then the three misfit extended in Destiny. Somehow having a chick that is nothing more than a dumb down version of Fllay but with a knack for piloting MS who then have an affair with one of the lead characters just make then enemy weaker.. Which filled the series with a "this is such a one sided affair" series...
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Old 2006-01-16, 03:47   Link #409
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I noticed Lacus' Haros were with her in the orphanage...I thought she only brought Pink chan with her?
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Old 2006-01-16, 06:09   Link #410
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
I noticed Lacus' Haros were with her in the orphanage...I thought she only brought Pink chan with her?
It would seem to me, Athrun was keeping himself busy in the last two years making modifications to his Haros (like installing an intruder alarm system and storage areas for the Freedom's garage door keys), hence it's not out of the ordinary if he made a few new ones to Lacus's specifications.
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Old 2006-01-16, 08:11   Link #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by servitude
d) In any case, I find the three misfit pilots from EA ? Blue Cosmos more entertainign and fun to watch then the three misfit extended in Destiny. Somehow having a chick that is nothing more than a dumb down version of Fllay but with a knack for piloting MS who then have an affair with one of the lead characters just make then enemy weaker.. Which filled the series with a "this is such a one sided affair" series...
Well, personally, i wouldn't be so sure about Auel and Sting... though i little less evil, they were more like the druggies... Stellar on the other hand, i just hated her so much... She was just annoying and the relationship she had with Shinn had to be one of the worst in the fanchise... i would have liked it better if she was more like the other extended... or they atleast changed what Shinn and Stellar's relationship was like... ugh...
I did like how they killed off the extended... except for Sting who should have died the first time... I kinda liked how Auel was killed off a few episodes first, and the rest later... it feels somewhat more believable when a team dies in seperate battles then all at once... not sure why... it just does...

grant it though... if i had to pick i would definatly say the druggies were better... in addiction to my hatred for stellar, the extended and Neo didn't seem nearly as threaten/strong as the druggies

the extended and Neo had trouble fighting Inexperienced Shinn in Impusle, Demi-waterdowned-god Athrun in savior, and two Zakus...
The Druggies gave demi-god Kira in freedom and Demi-god Athrun in Justice a real challenge
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Old 2006-01-16, 09:34   Link #412
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Slayerx
Stellar on the other hand, i just hated her so much... She was just annoying and the relationship she had with Shinn had to be one of the worst in the fanchise... i would have liked it better if she was more like the other extended... or they atleast changed what Shinn and Stellar's relationship was like... ugh...
I completely agree. Stellar is effectively a Four Murasame clone, and Four was already the worst character in the Gundam Franchise. It's not surprising that even Kuwashima Houko was not enough to save her character. This is one of the few instances where the tastes of the Japanese fans absolutely infuriates me.
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Old 2006-01-16, 09:43   Link #413
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@ VCV

That's just weird. I mean, an interview states that Meer's Red Chan was copied from the Haros left at Lacus' house in PLANT. Then I highly doubt Athrun would do something really conspicuous as going to the same beach everyday with those spies (presumably because of Dullindal's knowledge of Lacus in Orb + "Coordinator" hit gang) about just to fix those Haros...he'll be busy every single day as Cagalli's bodyguard too, right?
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Old 2006-01-16, 10:15   Link #414
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
I noticed Lacus' Haros were with her in the orphanage...I thought she only brought Pink chan with her?
and i saw a picture of mu as an angel(along with fllay(your current sig),natarle and the 3 druggies.) and look at gsd they resurected him as neo(who i can't call mu even if he really is mu)(i'm also aware i might have contridicted(sp?) myself)
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Old 2006-01-16, 11:57   Link #415
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OK time to get serious again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
And so is "Hero defeats Villain". This kind of minimalism is pretty meaningless.
So if GSD = "Hero defeats Villain", then it is meaningless?


Quote:
Pshaw, interjection. -- used to express irritation, disapproval, contempt, or disbelief
Deny it all you want, but it is true...

Quote:
Perhaps my comment was a bit harsh. However, it is essentially correct. Lest you think that it was a personal attack on kodachrome, it was actually my overall impression of how flippant remarks are used on this forum. There's only three reasons for using flippant remarks: 1. You are replying to a post that merits no further discussion; 2. You are being a jerk to get a rise out of someone else; 3. You have nothing more to contribute. All of these cases should be used sparingly, if at all. Therefore, anyone using flippant remarks a great deal of the time is either purposefully not following proper etiquette, or not thinking matters through.


So you decide who makes flippant remarks and those who don't?

Granted that every poster on this thread has been consitently showing what they think of GSD as a failure or whatever, there's nobody on this thread who decides that it is flippant or not, flame bait or not, trolling or not, except for Mr. Paper.

Quote:
While I don't think that Lacus is naive now, that's the way she was initially presented. In order to properly use a character foil, you sort of have to be pretty obvious about the traits shown. Since naivete was the primary trait shown, then it stands to reason that either that was the feature they wanted to make a foil for, or there's no character foil here to begin with.
Fllay was actually naive?

Hmm.

Spoiled brat, maybe. Bitch with a severe attitude problem, maybe (in the beginning of the series anyway). But naive?

Narrow minded about Coordinators and war, that's it. Never naive. That only goes for GODDESS Lacus.

Quote:
Well, I calls them as I sees them. There was an awful lot of stuff going on inside Fllay's head, which leads to an awful lot of reasons for doing what she did. To simply reduce all of that to either "meaness" or "cruelty" is a bit on the absurd side. Anyone espousing this idea is thus either being malicious or unobservant. By the way this would be the same kind of cavalier use of minimalism that I accused you of earlier.


Even if they are rabid Fllay haters, it gives you no reason to call them as such. You are then guilty of the same absurd thing you are accusing them of.

Quote:
Well that's the thing. Fllay herself was moving in the very same direction. Once she got her shock to her system, she actually tried to become more open and so forth. This really argues against the idea of a character foil.
character foil - is a character whose traits are in direct contrast to those of the principal character. The foil therefore highlights the traits of the protagonist. The foil is usually a minor character, although if there are two protagonists, they may be foils of each other. (taken from this site)

Let's see.

Lacus = Fllay foil in start of SEED. Lacus remained the same throughout SEED whereas Fllay actually changed. But you can't say that Lacus isn't a foil of Fllay anymore. Is being a foil only a one shot deal? That in order to become a character foil the protagonist in question should also remain static so as the foil could continue being a foil? Then that defeats the characterization of the protagonist in question then...it nerfs his/her development.

Quote:
Actually there's a bit more to being a character foil than just being different. After all, we would hardly call Fllay and Dulindal character foils, would we? To be truly effective, this literary device pretty much has to use characters who have similar roles, and use contrasts to emphasize their respective traits. Thus, it can be argued that Shinn and Kira are foils or that Kira and Athrun are. It's a much bigger stretch to attribute it to Lacus and Fllay.
But they have similar roles. Both are daughters of high officials of teh supreme rulers of their respective universes. Fllay was used by the EAF to make their cause gain more support; Lacus used her father's name to gain more support (using her name to get more support). Fllay used Kira, Lacus "used" Kira. Fllay made Kira awesome in SEED mode, Lacus made Kira "awesome" in Freedom. Fllay was a "healer", Lacus was a healer.

But Fllay was Kira's love.
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Old 2006-01-16, 13:14   Link #416
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Cer, you forgot that their mothers were both dead before the start of the series, that their fathers both died in the series, they did not start out as part of the war but became involved, they were both Kira's women, and, oh yes - Lacus and Fllay are both girls. Watch as I grasp at the straws of comparison now.

Disclaimer: Since it's okay when 4tran is flippant and illogical, and since I am being an ass in the same style as 4tran, it is auto-okay for me to have dropped that Lacus and Fllay are both girls comment.
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Old 2006-01-16, 13:27   Link #417
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LOL Go koda! *cheers for koda*

Anyways, what I find hilarious is how this is suppose to be a discussion on how GSD failed, not characters from Gundam SEED.
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People feel a sense of accomplishment through battle.
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Old 2006-01-16, 13:46   Link #418
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
OK time to get serious again...



So if GSD = "Hero defeats Villain", then it is meaningless?
I think meant that to think of GSD as nothing more than "Hero defeats villain" is meaningless. Like thinking of <historical personage of your choice> as homo sapiens. It's true, but doesn't say much of what's important.


Quote:
Fllay was actually naive?

Hmm.

Spoiled brat, maybe. Bitch with a severe attitude problem, maybe (in the beginning of the series anyway). But naive?

Narrow minded about Coordinators and war, that's it. Never naive. That only goes for GODDESS Lacus.
She certainly seemed to show a certain naïveté about the war, yes. All the Orb kid did - "we're civillian of a neutral nation, the war can't touch us." Fllay hung on to that attitude a bit longer than those who didn't make it to an escape pod. She lost it when the war took her father.

As for Lacus - hard to say how much of that naïveté was protective coloration.

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But Fllay was Kira's love.
Hm. I won't deny the deep emotional investment Kira had in Fllay, but did he ever know her?
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Old 2006-01-16, 23:16   Link #419
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
So if GSD = "Hero defeats Villain", then it is meaningless?
Anh_Minh already covered this, but if we reduce every storyline to such simplistic elements, then we don't exactly have anything left to discuss. In my opinion, anyone using this kind of tactic is effectively conceding the argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Deny it all you want, but it is true...
Curiously, I presumed that you fully believe everything you say. If this is indeed the case, then what's the point of simply reiterating it without adding anything of substance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
...there's nobody on this thread who decides that it is flippant or not, flame bait or not, trolling or not, except for Mr. Paper...
There's a difference between playing mod, and simply expressing my opinions on a particular posting style. I don't believe that making flippant remarks is a violation of TOS, therefore, it is not a modable offense in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Fllay was actually naive?
naive --lacking experience, wisdom, or judgement.

Very much so. She performed all of her actions without understanding the ramifications of any of them. Fllay tried to do malicious things not because she could actually gain by it, but because she thought that she was clever, and because it was the only things that she could do. If she was more worldly, she could have easily made better choices for her self. As it was, her self-delusions tended to hurt herself far more than anyone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Even if they are rabid Fllay haters, it gives you no reason to call them as such. You are then guilty of the same absurd thing you are accusing them of.
Why not? If someone missed details about Dulindal's plots, that's not really a problem - they are presented fairly subtly. Missing details of this kind is quite acceptable. However, in order to believe that Fllay was driven by just "meaness" and "cruelty" means that you'd have to miss an awful lot of rather obvious details about her. This, by any definition is well characterized by the descriptor of "unobservant".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Lacus = Fllay foil in start of SEED. Lacus remained the same throughout SEED whereas Fllay actually changed. But you can't say that Lacus isn't a foil of Fllay anymore. Is being a foil only a one shot deal? That in order to become a character foil the protagonist in question should also remain static so as the foil could continue being a foil? Then that defeats the characterization of the protagonist in question then...it nerfs his/her development.
The problem is that the only time that Lacus can be considered a foil is while she was onboard Archangel. The next time she has a prominent role, Fllay has already changed greatly from what she was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
But they have similar roles. Both are daughters of high officials of teh supreme rulers of their respective universes. Fllay was used by the EAF to make their cause gain more support; Lacus used her father's name to gain more support (using her name to get more support). Fllay used Kira, Lacus "used" Kira. Fllay made Kira awesome in SEED mode, Lacus made Kira "awesome" in Freedom. Fllay was a "healer", Lacus was a healer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kodachrome
Cer, you forgot that their mothers were both dead before the start of the series, that their fathers both died in the series, they did not start out as part of the war but became involved, they were both Kira's women, and, oh yes - Lacus and Fllay are both girls. Watch as I grasp at the straws of comparison now.
And the exact same things would apply to Cagalli. And Athrun for that matter. This doesn't prove a thing. The fact of the matter is that Fllay and Lacus still have completely different roles in the story. Trying to make any connection beyond this is sort of futile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon Blues
Anyways, what I find hilarious is how this is suppose to be a discussion on how GSD failed, not characters from Gundam SEED.
The problem is that we cannot even come to a consensus that Destiny did in fact fail. Therefore, we are left to discuss the peripheral issues.
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Old 2006-01-17, 10:37   Link #420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
I think meant that to think of GSD as nothing more than "Hero defeats villain" is meaningless. Like thinking of <historical personage of your choice> as homo sapiens. It's true, but doesn't say much of what's important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
Anh_Minh already covered this, but if we reduce every storyline to such simplistic elements, then we don't exactly have anything left to discuss. In my opinion, anyone using this kind of tactic is effectively conceding the argument.
But GSD is really simple. I mean, it's not all the time we get shows wherein the main main main villain of the series is already decided at the very first episode of the series and is the truest truest villain just because of some hyper imagination levels and by means of a little notebook.

Sometimes when you want to make something out of the complexities, all you really have to do is to simplify them and so you'll understand better.

Quote:
Curiously, I presumed that you fully believe everything you say. If this is indeed the case, then what's the point of simply reiterating it without adding anything of substance?
Hmm. Why, isn't the entire run of the CE universe enough proof of that?

Quote:
There's a difference between playing mod, and simply expressing my opinions on a particular posting style. I don't believe that making flippant remarks is a violation of TOS, therefore, it is not a modable offense in the first place.
So you say. But since kodachrome already has an answer for that, then I guess all is fine then.

Quote:
naive --lacking experience, wisdom, or judgement.

Very much so. She performed all of her actions without understanding the ramifications of any of them. Fllay tried to do malicious things not because she could actually gain by it, but because she thought that she was clever, and because it was the only things that she could do. If she was more worldly, she could have easily made better choices for her self. As it was, her self-delusions tended to hurt herself far more than anyone else.


She was bent on revenge, way more than being naive. She didn't do those things because she wanted to gain something. She just wanted to hurt Kira back then. If she did those things in order to gain something and she was angry when it didn't push through, then she was actually being naive to think something like that could make her gain something she wanted.

Quote:
She certainly seemed to show a certain naïveté about the war, yes. All the Orb kid did - "we're civillian of a neutral nation, the war can't touch us." Fllay hung on to that attitude a bit longer than those who didn't make it to an escape pod. She lost it when the war took her father.
It was the only thing keeping her sane in this world she always has known ever since she was a little girl. Maybe her father had a hand in making her think this way. But in no way was she naive about it, she just simply didn't believe that a war was out there and whether you're a part or not of a neutral nation, it eventually catches up.

Quote:
Why not? If someone missed details about Dulindal's plots, that's not really a problem - they are presented fairly subtly. Missing details of this kind is quite acceptable. However, in order to believe that Fllay was driven by just "meaness" and "cruelty" means that you'd have to miss an awful lot of rather obvious details about her. This, by any definition is well characterized by the descriptor of "unobservant".
Yes, it was SO subtle that quite a few fans out there also agreed that Dullindal was teh evilness the first time they laid their eyes on him.

Seriously...

You point your finger at the very obvious bad guy who did lots of things to attact attention to himself but never question those who for all we know could amaze us with his sheer genius in evading that judgment just because he was calm, cool, and collected and definitely not evil the way we know evil is (Zala, Djibril, Azrael VS Dullindal, Rau)? Then we brand him as such because what he was doing was not the good that we know of (Dullindal, other bad guys and Lacus)?


What rather obvious details? That she slept with Kira? That she was a psycho bitch? That she manipulated Kira? That she got angry at Kira for being a Coordinator then using him so that Kira could destroy himself? Once people see the evil faults openly, then they just surmise that person as the aforementioned evil character without trying to delve into his personality deeper. Why he acted that way, why he's so pissed off at the entire world. It wasn't that they were unobservant, rather, these were the only things that they openly observed about Fllay, and so equate her with it without going into the finer details of her character.

Quote:
The problem is that the only time that Lacus can be considered a foil is while she was onboard Archangel. The next time she has a prominent role, Fllay has already changed greatly from what she was.


It's not like she's foil for Fllay one second then completely not so the next. If that is so, then Lacus' personality has taken an even lower level for me. Are you saying Lacus is not Lacus without Fllay at her side?

Quote:
And the exact same things would apply to Cagalli. And Athrun for that matter. This doesn't prove a thing. The fact of the matter is that Fllay and Lacus still have completely different roles in the story. Trying to make any connection beyond this is sort of futile.
Well, Fllay is the true Goddess and Lacus is the GODDESS.

They have similar roles in the story, which I have pointed out, and kodachrome also pointed out. Something in which Kira had to choose...one Goddess was leading him down a path to become a killing machine bent on war while the other GODDESS was leading him to a path of love and peace and lots of pink swirly dust. But this Goddess changed, and somehow could've led Kira to a more believable path of peace and love if she was still alive and the other GODDESS still did not change and led Kira to a path that vaporized any little love I have left for his character, the path to absolute GODHOOD.

How are their roles any different?

@ Deacon Blues

Character "carry-overs" from SEED + WTF character "development" (glare at Kira tachi) could be considered why Destiny failed in some ways, so...
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